The Religion Thread!

This is the big one, folks.

I myself am a lost Christian, unhappy with Anglicanism, with which I grew up, and later fell out of favour with. I have no real religious community (all of my friends are agnostic/atheist) and I don't know where to go, what books to read, or what denomination to study. I need direction.

Re: Christianity, I strongly recommend THE ORTHODOX CHURCH by Timothy Ware and THE RISE OF NORMATIVE CHRISTIANITY by Arland Hultgren. The former is an admirable survey of a little-discussed, but fascinating, branch of Christian tradition that has evolved apart from the Western tradition. The second is a strictly scholarly study of how Christian thought evolved during those very early centuries, discussing a lot of the theories of Christianity's formation; it's dry, but it presents a very well-argued theory about the development of Christianity during those early periods.

A good book to accompany Hultgren's NORMATIVE CHRISTIANITY is Richard Bauckham's JESUS AND THE EYEWITNESSES: GOSPELS AS EYEWITNESS TESTIMONY. It comes at the gospel accounts from a POV not usually entertained in contemporary scholarship, but stakes out some compelling positions as to how these texts would have been read and understood in those early communities.

And, then there's N. T. Wright's three-volume CHRISTIAN ORIGINS AND THE QUESTION OF GOD series: Vol. 1: THE NEW TESTAMENT AND THE PEOPLE OF GOD, Vol. 2: JESUS AND THE VICTORY OF GOD, and Vol. 3: THE RESURRECTION OF THE SON OF GOD. Expensive and expansive, but pretty fascinating.

Last, but far from least, I adore John F. Hobbins' blog, ANCIENT HEBREW POETRY. He's a Biblical scholar who's a bit of an odd duck, neither liberal nor conservative in his theology, and willing to focus on the Old Testament heritage of Christianity as a lens for understanding the New. His commentary on social/political issues is refreshingly unusual.

I ain't saying anything.....

my views on Religion are more controversial than my views on Politics...

:cheers:

I've never heard a compelling reason to believe in a deity, so I don't.

I haven't found compelling reasons to believe in "a" deity, as in the vague deity believed in by some philosophical systems or belief structures. I have found compelling reasons to believe in the God-Man of Christianity, but every individual grapples with these questions in different ways.

At any rate, is nevertheless fascinating that, as a historical phenomenon, Christianity has seemingly functioned unlike any other kind of religion in human history, in that it spreads through populations like a kind of virus (an interesting sci-fi novel, Neal Stephenson's SNOW CRASH, plays on this notion to interesting effect). On these grounds, I think it's possible to argue that, as a belief structure, Christianity is uniquely shaped to play into human psychological desires, a point some atheists have noted with dismay (and others with appreciative, but cautious, acceptance). Of course, the Western world, built on Christianity, has become increasingly inoculated against it at this point, although it has taken nearly 1600 years. At the same time, it is gaining tremendous traction in the Eastern world, so it doesn't appear to be vanishing any time soon.

I'm fascinated with religion, but don't consider myself a strict follower of it. My Jewish faith isn't an set of rules that I have to follow, but more traditions passed down that keep me connected with friends and family.

I never really had much of a religion but I was never an atheist either. As a kid I believed there was a God just as much as I believed there was a Santa Claus and the Easter bunny. Over time I've become less convinced. I guess I'm agnostic. I do occasionally attend a church but that's mostly because my friend really got into Christianity and she likes to bring someone along, I also like the atmosphere, you have to find the right kind of church for that she says.

j7wild wrote:

I ain't saying anything.....

my views on Religion are more controversial than my views on Politics...

:cheers:

With respect, I doubt that you (or anyone else) could come up with any "controversial" views on religion that haven't already been debated a gazillion times down the centuries. Feel free to take that as a challenge, though. :D

Harmsway wrote:

At any rate, is nevertheless fascinating that, as a historical phenomenon, Christianity has seemingly functioned unlike any other kind of religion in human history, in that it spreads through populations like a kind of virus

Really? Is that not true of other religions?

Harmsway wrote:

At the same time, it is gaining tremendous traction in the Eastern world, so it doesn't appear to be vanishing any time soon.

I assume you're referring to South Korea and the Philippines in particular. Anywhere else?

"Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits on many waters. With her the kings of the earth committed adultery and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries." Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. This title was written on her forehead: MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus. When I saw her, I was greatly astonished. Then the angel said to me: "Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns (Revelation 17:1-7).

And I thought I was bad....

Loomis wrote:

Really? Is that not true of other religions?

Not to the same extent; the size/scope of Christianity is unprecedented in history. You might argue that it's just because Christianity was in a unique historical position, and that may be true. And it's true that Christian conversion was sometimes out of coercion, a cultural infiltration because of political power shifts. But I'd also point out that Christianity has a kind of uni-mythic quality that allows it to be highly adaptable to an astonishingly wide variety of cultures and mindsets, something that Judaism or Islam or Hinduism or Bhuddism doesn't have.

Loomis wrote:

I assume you're referring to South Korea and the Philippines in particular. Anywhere else?

It's growing at extraordinary rates in China, despite the best attempts of the state to suppress/control it. Christianity is going to play an enormous role in the China of the future.

I'm an athiest but that tends to mean that my religion is science as opposed to some central diety. I do believe religion has generally formed a nescessary prop for social evolution, though I'd say the function of churches and orders behind religion are of much more dubious and controversial value.

lachesis wrote:

I'm an athiest but that tends to mean that my religion is science as opposed to some central diety. I do believe religion has generally formed a nescessary prop for social evolution, though I'd say the function of churches and orders behind religion are of much more dubious and controversial value.

Can a person believe in science and in a Creator? I don't see them as mutually exclusive. Quite the opposite, really. I believe science proves there had to be a designer.

I also don't believe that billions of people around the world who have never met one another and would probably have nothing in common all suffer from the same mass delusion. It can't be coincidence that through the centuries thousands of different languages, cultures, tribes, ethnicities, etc....all have believed in some sort of God or Creator. The poodle skirt was a fad......Members Only jackets were a fad.....penny loafers were a fad.....belief in a higher power, a supreme being, can't simply be just a fad or a weakness, or it would have died out a long time ago. It seems to me humans are hard-wired to look for something higher than themselves...to look for meaning to their life...to question why we are here and where we go when we die.

Loomis wrote:

j7wild wrote:

I ain't saying anything.....

my views on Religion are more controversial than my views on Politics...

:cheers:

With respect, I doubt that you (or anyone else) could come up with any "controversial" views on religion that haven't already been debated a gazillion times down the centuries. Feel free to take that as a challenge, though. :D

in that case:

I feel religion is the biggest lie ever perpetrated by man on man and it's been used to start wars, murder innocent people, commit genocide, deny children basic medical care and letting them die from illnesses, rape women, starve children to deaths, extort money and valuable goods from the poor and rich alike, commit child molestation and pedophilia and child abuse, etc etc

Oh I can go on and on....

Sentient Man or Homo Sapiens, been around since about 250,000 years ago and the full behavioral Homo Sapiens been around about 50,000 years.

Now tell me, how long has Religion and the beliefs in God been around?

A lot less than 50,000 to 250,000 years, I can tell you that.

Around 25,000 years.

Makes you wonder how Man has survived all those centuries (25,000 to 250,000 years) without Religion and the beliefs in God, does it?

If religion was to be totally eliminated and forgotten tomorrow, I can tell you unless there is a disaster, natural or man-made that destroys Planet Earth and Mankind; Man will still survive and thrive and progress for another 50,000 years without it and without God.

Why?

Because there is NO God!!

It's a LIE!!

That's just the human condition for you. In Biblical terms, fallen man.

Re: Harms - thanks a lot for the links and suggested books. I'm also very curious about Orthodox faith, even musically. Polish liturgies were given striking treatment by Penderecki, and of course Stravinsky was a devout follower of the Russian Orthodox Church. Unfortunately there aren't many churches in London. Most of them are Greek Orthodox, though one's Russian. What's the big difference in interpretation of scripture, other than their differing cultural traditions?

j7wild wrote:

Sentient Man or Homo Sapiens, been around since about 250,000 years ago and the full behavioral Homo Sapiens been around about 50,000 years.

Now tell me, how long has Religion and the beliefs in God been around?

A lot less than 50,000 to 250,000 years, I can tell you that.

Really? Where's your evidence for that?

Quote :

Around 25,000 years.

Makes you wonder how Man has survived all those centuries (25,000 to 250,000 years) without Religion and the beliefs in God, does it?

That's pure conjecture on your part. You can't know what was in a person's mind or heart 25,000 years ago since, according to most archaeologists, the written word has only been around less than 4,000 years. And if these people who allegedly were living 250,000 years ago were as primitive and dull as some claim, how could they have been expected to write down and articulate their belief in a god?

Quote :

Because there is NO God!!

It's a LIE!!

There is NO J7Wild!

He's a LIE!

Prove to us that you exist. What is your proof that you exist? How can we be certain that we're not interfacing with some artificially intelligent program called "J7Wild" made up by some bored Asian quantum physics students at Cal-Tech or MIT? How do we know you are real?

I await this reply more than I have anything on the forum. Get to it j7 pronto.

the first evidence of Man and Religion was found on drawings on Cave Walls dating back to about 25,000 years

j7wild wrote:

the first evidence of Man and Religion was found on drawings on Cave Walls dating back to about 25,000 years

Did those pictures have tits?

j7wild wrote:

the first evidence of Man and Religion was found on drawings on Cave Walls dating back to about 25,000 years

That addresses a question no one asked.

Back to my question: Are you real? If so, prove it? Prove to us that you are a human being and not a computer-generated entity. Provide proof of your existence so that we know we aren't being yanked around by a clever computer program; not some artificially intelligent life form created in a laboratory at LIvermore. You said God did not exist and was a lie; a construct made up by man. So I'm asking you, whatever you are, human or computer program, to explain how you are any more real than a God that you said doesn't exist.

Normally "intelligence" and "J7Wild" are not two words I would use in the same sentence, but I'm trying to be reasonable here and keep a dialogue going.

RobDudley wrote:

j7wild wrote:

the first evidence of Man and Religion was found on drawings on Cave Walls dating back to about 25,000 years

Did those pictures have tits?

:o Wow! A RobDudley post that is funny!

I was raised Catholic; and I certainly know my censers from my cenotaphs, and my doctrine from my dogma ;)

But I've always sort of believed all of it. Inasmuch as - I don't care what name you give your god. Or gods. Or goddesses. Or whether you don't. But don't do it in public and frighten the horses. Don't denigrate others for not holding the same belief system (or rejecting it) as you do.

So I suppose - if I have any kind of faith and/or religion - it is based on basic good manners and good behaviour.

I've taken to describing myself as a catholic pagan lately. It seems to cover all bases. Plus, I do tend to have an eclectic sense of spirituality. I'm getting to the point where I'll use just about any aspect of any religion, if it works for me.

Zoroastrianism - now there's a religion that deserves a lot more followers than it's got.

Gravity's Silhouette wrote:

Can a person believe in science and in a Creator? I don't see them as mutually exclusive.

Depends what sort of creator you believe in. If you believe in an entity that set the wheels in motion and laid down the laws of nature, sure, that is compatible with science. If you believe in a creator who personally intervenes in human affairs, created man from dust, and created woman from man's rib, then no, that is totally at odds with science.

Gravity's Silhouette wrote:

I also don't believe that billions of people around the world who have never met one another and would probably have nothing in common all suffer from the same mass delusion. It can't be coincidence that through the centuries thousands of different languages, cultures, tribes, ethnicities, etc....all have believed in some sort of God or Creator. The poodle skirt was a fad......Members Only jackets were a fad.....penny loafers were a fad.....belief in a higher power, a supreme being, can't simply be just a fad or a weakness, or it would have died out a long time ago. It seems to me humans are hard-wired to look for something higher than themselves...to look for meaning to their life...to question why we are here and where we go when we die.

Believing something because a lot of other people do has never struck me as a good reason to believe something.

Harmsway wrote:

Loomis wrote:

Really? Is that not true of other religions?

Not to the same extent; the size/scope of Christianity is unprecedented in history. You might argue that it's just because Christianity was in a unique historical position, and that may be true. And it's true that Christian conversion was sometimes out of coercion, a cultural infiltration because of political power shifts. But I'd also point out that Christianity has a kind of uni-mythic quality that allows it to be highly adaptable to an astonishingly wide variety of cultures and mindsets, something that Judaism or Islam or Hinduism or Bhuddism doesn't have.

Well, of those five religions you mention, I guess only Christianity and Islam are noted for proselytising on any kind of scale. Still, you have a point about the "highly adaptable" quality of Christianity - I imagine it must be the broadest church of any religion. That said, though, I often hear that Islam is the world's fastest-growing religion.

j7wild wrote:

Makes you wonder how Man has survived all those centuries (25,000 to 250,000 years) without Religion and the beliefs in God, does it?

I don't think it's relevant to the purposes of current discussion to consider humans before they had full language capabilities, which was somewhere around 70,000 to 50,000 years ago. The origin of language, which many scientists suggest would have occurred as a substantial change in brain chemistry/development, is truly the rise of what we now recognize as humanity.