Previous Debate: The James Bond Theme: Has it lost it's excitement and importance?

Despite Bond having been established as 007 at the end of Casino Royale, we still heard very little of the iconic James Bond Theme in Quantum of Solace. Are the producers ashamed of or tired of the theme? Does a theme so well-associated with the colourful and fun Bond romps of yesteryear now have no relevance within the context of a series now determined to be tough and serious? Is the theme now little more than a grudgingly added piece of fan-service relegated to a point in the film where most of the audience have already left the cinema? Did it fall victim to tired overkill in the Brosnan films? Or have the less primal scores from the likes of the Bourne films reduced the Bond theme to little more than a piece of camp trumpetry belonging to a more innocent age of escapism? Will we hear much of the theme in SkyFall? Can Thomas Newman give us a welcome and relevant reinterpretation of it? Or will it once more only really surface when the credits roll? Is the theme still important to Bond and does it fit comfortably with the current tone of the films?

Discuss.

Excellent topic.

I can't pretend to know what's filtering through the gamy mind of Miccoli, but the absence of the Bond theme in CR and QOS bothers me. Not that I want to see a return to the wild overuse we heard in Dr. No, mark you. But regardless of what the sophisticates may think, the Bond theme, properly deployed, is a critical and intrinsic component of cinematic Bond. When it's lacking, so are the films.

The James Bond Theme is something you should use sporadically, to accentuate really spectacular moments. The best scores of the Bond canon rarely use it. Instead, they build unique themes of their own.

When you look at most of the acclaimed Bond scores (YOLT, OHMSS, DAF, MR, FYEO, TLD), they don't use the James Bond Theme as a base. They use either the title theme, an secondary track (TLD and "Where Has Everybody Gone", OHMSS and "We Have All The Time In The World"), or build themes of their own.

That's something that Arnold lacked. He couldn't build consistent musical themes. He'd either use the Bond theme as a crutch or go off on a tangent. He'd introduce a melody for a location (Hamburg, Vietnam, Azerbaijan) and never go back to them.

This is part of a wider malaise (and loss of confidence in Bond) at EON, which has sought to remove many of the components that made the Bond series distinct from other films. The James Bond Theme is just one of the more obvious missing parts.

I'd definitely like to hear more of it in Skyfall; there have been 'down-to-earth' movies in the series before Craig's that had no issue with full and proper use of the Bond theme.

I thought the restraint in CR was a good choice, it made the ending with Bond delivering the line effective. If CR's score needed anything it was a better composer. Holding the Bond theme for the ending was the only smart choice David Arnold made for it.

James Bond theme, then must think about what Monty Norman (and John Barry) created for Dr No. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gdiUS8D7Ho
Other movies, LALD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omXKi-G2siI

David Arnold over yuse the Twine Bond theme (Boat chase) to much for DAD and CR and inspecialy for the end credits.
So hat we heard at the end of CR look to much on that. It is not realy what i think if people say there mis the James Bond theme.

His score of QOS is inprovement. Of course he stil by times to much techno, but he finalty drop a big part of the Twine music. For the music of the boat chase he yusing it again and should a for it. It be the worse cue he ever made.

So mabey we should ask or self when whas last time it be realy yued. TMND https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xr7IEM9CR70

It's still the coolest, most thrilling, most iconic cinematic theme music in my eyes (well, ears I suppose).

Naturally I'd like to see it return in all its glory. Not as liberally as was its use in, say, Dr No, but at the right moments the Bond Theme is unbeatable.

'Course it's not very deep n' gritty and stuff, so it's yet to make a significant appearance in Craig's Bourne films. I'm guessing it's going to be employed a bit more in Skyfall because they'll really have to remind people that the movie is part of the 007 franchise and not a cheap Jason Statham flick.

What it needs is a re-invention, much like what Eric Serra did for the gun barrel of GOLDENEYE, or Conti with FYEO. I'm tired with the cookie cutter, squeaky clean version of the Bond theme in the credits of the last two films it's all in the rhythm and orchestration.

I have my own idea on how to do, if I ever got the gig. I've convinced myself to never tell a soul in case some bastard might steal it.

Makeshift Python wrote:

I thought the restraint in CR was a good choice, it made the ending with Bond delivering the line effective. If CR's score needed anything it was a better composer. Holding the Bond theme for the ending was the only smart choice David Arnold made for it.

Agreed. Arnold only made two half decent Bond scores. TND (and this is up for debate for some) and QOS. Everything else was retreads of retreads.

It seems like every Bond actors first outing is stuck in the previous Bond's style. OHMSS demanded Connery swagger, LALD is easily the most physical of Moore's outings, TLD was lightly flavored with Moore era one liners (most of which were thankfully cut), GE had Dalton's brooding, and CR had Brosnan's music and extravagant action sequences.

I think if the Bond theme was used correctly in CR and QOS, it would have taken the edge off of those films (in a good way). For example, the Port-au-Prince sequence could have worked well with the Bond theme, perhaps in the style of Barry's Bond theme used in the pre-title sequences for MOONRAKER or THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS. But someone at EON and David Arnold think including noisy techno shit makes a scene more serious or thrilling. I think the complete opposite.

The Bond theme could be as exciting as it has ever been if done correctly. I'm hoping Newman does something interesting during his turn as the composer, instead of just being a generic seat-filler until Arnold returns.

Mr. Brown wrote:

I think if the Bond theme was used correctly in CR and QOS, it would have taken the edge off of those films (in a good way). For example, the Port-au-Prince sequence could have worked well with the Bond theme, perhaps in the style of Barry's Bond theme used in the pre-title sequences for MOONRAKER or THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS. But someone at EON and David Arnold think including noisy techno shit makes a scene more serious or thrilling. I think the complete opposite.

The Bond theme could be as exciting as it has ever been if done correctly. I'm hoping Newman does something interesting during his turn as the composer, instead of just being a generic seat-filler until Arnold returns.

I think that's a good way to put it, the Bond theme "would have taken the edge off those films". Even in LTK, which is as dark as a Bond film ever should be, the Bond theme blares away when Bond accomplishes some amazing feat. The fact that the movie is mostly so downbeat makes these scenes that much more effective - the floatplane scene is a notable example.

But the problem is that for the Bond theme to work at lightening the mood, we need to see what Bond is doing and how. Then the Bond theme adds to the exhilaration (see the scene in TSWLM where Bond rides the closed circuit camera for a great example of this). In the QOS boat chase, it's impossible to figure out what the hell's going on - I still have idea how Bond defeated that last boat with the anchor thingy - what he did seems to have been physically impossible. So there's nothing to be exhilarated at.

right idea, wrong pussy wrote:

I think that's a good way to put it, the Bond theme "would have taken the edge off those films". Even in LTK, which is as dark as a Bond film ever should be, the Bond theme blares away when Bond accomplishes some amazing feat. The fact that the movie is mostly so downbeat makes these scenes that much more effective - the floatplane scene is a notable example.

Indeed. Imagine if a rugged DIE HARD-esque track was played over the water skiing scene? It'd be a complete joke, and rather boring. At least the Bond theme made it exciting.

I felt the same with a lot of the action scenes in QOS. And, unfortunately, the Bond theme was never used, and we were given shitty electronic music most of the time. I think it took a bit away from that film.

Every film, regardless of how serious it is made to be, needs a little breathing room. Placing the Bond theme in appropriate scenes could have relieved a bit of the tension.

Mr. Brown wrote:

I felt the same with a lot of the action scenes in QOS. And, unfortunately, the Bond theme was never used, and we were given shitty electronic music most of the time.

To give Arnold some credit, the Bond theme is there in in bits and pieces. It's just never played in full.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9vWPSk2wrs#t=1m02s

www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDTlVPyjN4A#t=6m55s

Yeah, I realize that. But I'm saying I think actions scenes like Port-au-Prince could have used the full Bond theme. (Then the trick would have been getting a decent rendition out of Arnold.)

I do enjoy this theme that plays a few times during the whole film, however:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDTlVPyjN4A&t=7m11s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p36U26_xUDE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwysGsx32EQ&t=31s

I'd like the return of the Bond theme in moments like in BIke Chase (TND) when just before the jump, we here the Bond theme, and just before they dispatch the helicopter with the hook, on in TWINE's boat chase, when he launches out of the building and when he recalculates his root, or when in the TND car chase, when the cutter is used. I like the theme when it's incorporated into one of the theme songs of the film. I think the James Bond theme used in its entirety can be jarring, such as during the Little Nellie sequence in YOLT.

While I love QOS's score, and it's teasing hints of the Bond theme throughout, I'd like to see at least one obvious usage of the BOnd theme in Skyfall (aside from the gun barrel opening)

Perilagu Khan wrote:

Excellent topic.

I can't pretend to know what's filtering through the gamy mind of Miccoli, but the absence of the Bond theme in CR and QOS bothers me. Not that I want to see a return to the wild overuse we heard in Dr. No, mark you. But regardless of what the sophisticates may think, the Bond theme, properly deployed, is a critical and intrinsic component of cinematic Bond. When it's lacking, so are the films.

This is exactly how I feel. I don't know what's going through Eon's head.

The fate of the iconic theme, may be very revealing of Eon's attitudes towards the series

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Are the producers ashamed of or tired of the theme?

They may very well be. They may truly want nu-Bond to stand on his own too feet.

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Does a theme so well-associated with the colourful and fun Bond romps of yesteryear now have no relevance within the context of a series now determined to be tough and serious

It shouldn't, but Eon may be determined that nu-Bond be distinct. The theme may cause unwanted connections with the old Bond.

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Is the theme now little more than a grudgingly added piece of fan-service relegated to a point in the film where most of the audience have already left the cinema?

It appears that may be the case. I think Eon wants nu-Bond to establish itself on its own merits. This may be driven by ego on the part of Craig. He may want to make Bond completely his own. If Craig wanted the theme prominent in the films, I think he would get his way.

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Or have the less primal scores from the likes of the Bourne films reduced the Bond theme to little more than a piece of camp trumpetry belonging to a more innocent age of escapism?

That might be trendy, "enlightened" thinking amongst the nu-Bond intelligentsia. The Theme might intimidate them. They may not want to be seen as leaning on it. They may want to succeed without it, thus enhancing the status of nu-Bond.

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Will we hear much of the theme in SkyFall?

I doubt it.

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Can Thomas Newman give us a welcome and relevant reinterpretation of it? Or will it once more only really surface when the credits roll?

Sure he could, but will they let him. They being Craig primarily.

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Is the theme still important to Bond and does it fit comfortably with the current tone of the films?

It could if there was a will, but I'm not sure that there is.

One need only look to the last two films.

Honestly I like David Arnold's music, and, despite I didn't like the lack of Bond's theme in Casino Royale, his idea of replacing it with You Know My Name to give the idea of a young and unexpert James Bond wasn't bad. And still you can hear Bond four notes motif in Trip Aces, Blunt Instrument, Dirty Martini (or, as I call it, poisoned, not stirred), The Switch, Fall of a House in Venice and The Bitch is Dead.
Also, in the past old movies, Bond theme wasn't used that much. I watched Goldfinger a few days ago, and I noticed the only part of Bond's theme used was the four notes part (B, C, C#, C) (except very briefly the part E, G, C, C# during Goldfinger's cards match), and sometimes wasn't even used during scenes featuring James Bond (for example when Felix and his collegue follow Bond's microchip). Same happened in Thunderball, most of Bond's theme was just the part E, G, C, C#, but probably because of Thunderball's theme song. And in some underwater scenes you can hear Bond theme, but he wasn't there. There was Largo.
The four notes motif once again was used a lot in Live and Let Die, but the rest of James Bond's theme was almost totally absent.
Also, A View to a Kill. James Bond's theme is heard very briefly in the snow, when Moore's going to the submarine, during the "car chase" (following May Day) in Paris and very briefly before he sleeps with May Day . The rest was just Duran Duran's (wonderful) song reused a lot and a nice adventure theme composed by John Barry used three or four times.
How about Goldeneye? Except for The Goldeneye Overture, and a brief appeareance of the four notes motif during the Tiger sequence, when Bond and Natalya are trapped inside it, the Bond appears only during the pleasant drive in St. Petersburg. And that version was even bad.

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E, G, C, C#,

Think you mean F-Ab-E-Eb (for GF, TB and YOLT). :)

Play it here.

http://www.gootar.com/piano/

One part of the 62 Bond theme that everyone forgets is the final chord, strummed by Vic Flick's guitar. That's the m/Maj9tth chord, also a signature sound in Bernard Herrmann's VERTIGO and PSYCHO Preludes. You can hear it throughout all of the Bond scores, far more frequently than any of the melodic motifs.

Play Eb-Gb-Bb-D, C-G-D-Eb-B, E-G-B-D#-F#, or E-F-G-Ab-C on the piano to hear what I mean.

(Left to right is low to high).

It did lose a little bit of importance for me during the Pierce Brosnan era (with exception to GE) due by and large to its overuse but I do think that now is the time to begin using it again on a more regular basis (about three or four times per film) whenever Bond does something typically 'Bondian'. I did greatly miss the Bond theme in QOS and apart from the end credits and briefly towards the end of the boat chase I found it difficult to detect any at all. Unfortunately, I have got the feeling that Barbara Broccoli, and to a lesser extent, Michael G Wilson, are somewhat embarrased by the Bond of old and so are trying to disassociate Daniel Craig's Bonds with it and are replacing all of the old 'iconic' moments with their own new versions (Agent Fields death in QOS for example).

James Bond wrote:

Unfortunately, I have got the feeling that Barbara Broccoli, and to a lesser extent, Michael G Wilson, are somewhat embarrased by the Bond of old and so are trying to disassociate Daniel Craig's Bonds with it and are replacing all of the old 'iconic' moments with their own new versions (Agent Fields death in QOS for example).

I believe it was Amblericus who once bruited this notion. I sincerely hope both of you are wrong.

Perilagu Khan wrote:

James Bond wrote:

Unfortunately, I have got the feeling that Barbara Broccoli, and to a lesser extent, Michael G Wilson, are somewhat embarrased by the Bond of old and so are trying to disassociate Daniel Craig's Bonds with it and are replacing all of the old 'iconic' moments with their own new versions (Agent Fields death in QOS for example).

I believe it was Amblericus who once bruited this notion. I sincerely hope both of you are wrong.

So do I but I guess that we are just going to have to wait and see, I am most afraid of what will happen when Michael G Wilson retires or dies and Barbara Brocolli takes total control over the Bond franchise. Does anybody know if there are there any other Broccolis or Wilsons working on the Bond films at the the moment as assistants or something who could possibly rise up in the ranks?

James Bond wrote:

Perilagu Khan wrote:

James Bond wrote:

Unfortunately, I have got the feeling that Barbara Broccoli, and to a lesser extent, Michael G Wilson, are somewhat embarrased by the Bond of old and so are trying to disassociate Daniel Craig's Bonds with it and are replacing all of the old 'iconic' moments with their own new versions (Agent Fields death in QOS for example).

I believe it was Amblericus who once bruited this notion. I sincerely hope both of you are wrong.

Does anybody know if there are there any other Broccolis or Wilsons working on the Bond films at the the moment as assistants or something who could possibly rise up in the ranks?

I too have wondered this. I don't want to see all the power in Babs' hands.

If SF is more of the same pretentious garbage, we are doomed. Babs is only very early 50's. She's at the helm for a long while yet. But I do think Craig is much responsible for the tone of the new films as well. He may be more to blame.

What irks the most, is the brazen attempts to distance themselves from classic elements of the series and re-imagine the whole franchise in Craig's nu-Bond image and nu-Bond world. The abscence of the iconic theme music is very telling.

Next time please find an actor who is just happy to play Bond and play him well, not re-draw the character. :x