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 Where did THAT come from?

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hegottheboot
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PostSubject: Re: Where did THAT come from?   Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:13 am

It's a quite effective image...but that dummy being in the film has never really made any sense...except for maybe the weed smoking.. laugh
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Blunt Instrument
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PostSubject: Re: Where did THAT come from?   Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:08 pm

And either he was faking when Bond punches him into the snake-filled coffin, or he's immortal. Or that's his twin brother sitting on the end of the train.
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Prisoner Monkeys
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PostSubject: Re: Where did THAT come from?   Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:13 pm

Prisoner Monkeys wrote:
I never really understood one part of the DIE ANOTHER DAY pre-titles. When Bond arrives in North Korea, he is posing as a South African diamond smuggler. He takes the briefcase of diamonds to Moon, but Moon already has the hovercrafts that he wants to buy. So why does he need the diamonds? Does he want to buy more hovercrafts? And if so, what is "Mr. van Biert" supposed to get in return for smuggling the diamonds in?
I think I've just come up with a reasonable explanation for this - "Mr. van Biert" is buying the weapons from Moon because Moon needs to get rid of them. His father is lobbying for reconciliation with the South, but has found out that his son is stockpiling weapons for an invasion. If the South finds out about it, the reconciliation will not happen. Moon tries to sell the hovercrafts off to prevent his father from removing him from his position.
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PostSubject: Re: Where did THAT come from?   Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:52 am

Oh for God's sake...

Moon wasn't selling the hovercraft - he was just using them to transport his weapons cache from their hiding place in the DMZ. How would van Biert transport that floating tank with the helicopter he had?

Van Biert was an arms dealer with access to conflict diamonds (perhaps he worked for Quantum?). Moon was selling the weapons for conflict diamonds (thereby getting a better deal) to finance the construction of his laser satellite.

If Bond's intervention hadn't resulted in Moon's exposure and apparent death - forcing Moon to establish a new identity to escape court martial - he might have had Icarus in orbit a lot sooner.

Another point to consider is: the three hardliner generals seemed to know who Graves really was, and were in on the plan, so why did he have to disguise himself at all? It seems General Moon was the only N Korean out of the loop.
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Prisoner Monkeys
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PostSubject: Re: Where did THAT come from?   Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:07 pm

AMC Hornet wrote:
Moon wasn't selling the hovercraft - he was just using them to transport his weapons cache from their hiding place in the DMZ. How would van Biert transport that floating tank with the helicopter he had?
Moon's dialogue about "America's cultural contibutions" suggests that the hovercrafts are the weapons, or at least part of his wider plan. The other weapons are useless without the hovercrafts because Moon can't cross the DMZ.

Although your explanation about Moon selling weapons - if he is selling them from a North Korean stockpile with the express consent of the hardliners - does make sense. But if that is the case, why does he even need the hovercrafts? If he is selling the weapons, he clearly has no intention of crossing the DMZ with them, so he doesn't need the hovercrafts to get there. And assembling the hovercrafts would only raise the attentions of the Americans and the British, because his plans would be obvious.

Maybe we should just chalk this one up to DIE ANOTHER DAY's stupidly-flawed internal logic.
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PostSubject: Re: Where did THAT come from?   Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:23 pm

Prisoner Monkeys wrote:
Although your explanation about Moon selling weapons - if he is selling them from a North Korean stockpile with the express consent of the hardliners - does make sense. But if that is the case, why does he even need the hovercrafts?
Because Moon hides the weapons *inside* the DMZ, where no one will look for them. (This was made clear by P&W/EON as the intention of the scene during the production of DIE ANOTHER DAY.)
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PostSubject: Re: Where did THAT come from?   Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:50 pm

This begs the question - which moron decided to cut that content?

I don't need the plot spelled out for me in crayon. I understood VANILLA SKY the first time I saw it. But there is a fundamental piece of the setup missing from the pre-title sequence here. I suspect it was cut so that we could watch Ferraris blowing up.

Although the more-thorough explanations outlined above give me an idea for how DIE ANOTHER DAY could have been less of a cartoon and more of an experiment in non-linear storytelling, with Bond in prison trying to work out how betrayed him after his mission went badly.
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PostSubject: Re: Where did THAT come from?   Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:51 pm

Prisoner Monkeys wrote:
This begs the question - which moron decided to cut that content?

http://s95358459.onlinehome.us/secondsphere/cruisingame/leegame.html
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PostSubject: Re: Where did THAT come from?   Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:54 pm

I thought as much.
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PostSubject: Re: Where did THAT come from?   Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:10 am

AMC Hornet wrote:
Oh for God's sake...

Moon wasn't selling the hovercraft - he was just using them to transport his weapons cache from their hiding place in the DMZ. How would van Biert transport that floating tank with the helicopter he had?

Van Biert was an arms dealer with access to conflict diamonds (perhaps he worked for Quantum?). Moon was selling the weapons for conflict diamonds (thereby getting a better deal) to finance the construction of his laser satellite.

If Bond's intervention hadn't resulted in Moon's exposure and apparent death - forcing Moon to establish a new identity to escape court martial - he might have had Icarus in orbit a lot sooner.

Another point to consider is: the three hardliner generals seemed to know who Graves really was, and were in on the plan, so why did he have to disguise himself at all? It seems General Moon was the only N Korean out of the loop.

This is the situation in a nutshell. In fact I don't think any of it is remotely confusing. Moon was selling weapons for conflict diamonds. Bond infiltrated, subbing for Van Bierk, in a bid to destroy Moon, blow things up, wreak havoc and do what Bond the blunt instrument,saboteur,assassin does.

Moon changed his identity because he had been exposed. Better to play dead. That way he keeps both his dad and Mi6 out of his hair. It seems he later brought the hardline generals on-board, so they became privy to his true identity as co-conspirators, but as we saw later, he could never bring Daddy around. Ultimately though his most dangerous adversary was Bond - the destroyer of worlds. (Remo Williams/Destroyer reference) who just wouldn't stop killing people, seducing his woman, blowing things up and generally ruining his mad plans. Such is Bond.

The hovercrafts were a means of moving weapons around in the mine-infested fields of the DMZ.I think it was apparent, even on first viewing, that the hovercrafts were simply a means of moving weapons around, so as to avoid land-mines.

They also helpfully served as a nod to the hovercraft scene in DAF, and as vehicles for the big chase and explosion episode to come.
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PostSubject: Re: Where did THAT come from?   Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:50 am

Prisoner Monkeys wrote:
Can someone please explain the scene in LALD where Bond shoots Baron Samedi in the head and it breaks like porcelain, but doesn't kill him?

Eon is playing with the supernatural here. They are having some fun with the voodoo theme of the film. Baron Samedi, in voodoo lore is a demon. Even though he takes human form in the film, he is still supernatural and unkillable. LALD is the only Bond film that ventures into the realm of the supernatural. Remember we are also asked to believe, no questions asked, that Solitaire does indeed have powers, as did her mother. Lying under the surface of the film (I wouldn't even call it subtext because the Samedi character is quite in our face) is that Kananga has done a deal with the devil (Samedi). Solitaire by virtue of lineage is Samedi's priestess. This is actually spelled out at one point in the film. She derives her power from Samedi. Bond of course eventually blows the whole thing to hell. Kananga and his gang are wiped out, their souls now seemingly in the custody of Samedi, who is last seen, maniacally laughing, impossibly perched on the front of the train, as he continues on about his worldly wanderings, corrupting and destroying the souls of men, as any diligent demon is wont to do.

Eon handled the supernatural theming very deftly I thought, in that while it is there, it is also very easy to ignore, or simply set aside, allowing the audience to experience the film as another escapist Bond adventure romp, populated by the usual cast of colourful, quirky characters. Very important as Bond is not about the supernatural. Bond is not Van Helsing, but LALD adds a dash of the otherworldly to complement the voodoo theming. Again its easily ignored, but it's there if you want to play with it. Bond as we would expect, ignores it and focuses on destroying what he understands.
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PostSubject: Re: Where did THAT come from?   Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:29 am

Prisoner Monkeys wrote:
Can someone please explain the scene in LALD where Bond shoots Baron Samedi in the head and it breaks like porcelain, but doesn't kill him?

To address the original question, the first 'Baron Samedi' to come up out of the grave was an effigy (with a porcelain head and moving eyes). Right after Bond shoots the effigy, the High Priest and one other superstitious goon, the real Samedi emerges, having counted six shots and taken a chance on Bond's reloading speed.
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PostSubject: Re: Where did THAT come from?   Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:33 am

...and, to beat an already-dead horse:

Prisoner Monkeys wrote:
Moon's dialogue about "America's cultural contibutions" suggests that the hovercrafts are the weapons, or at least part of his wider plan..

Bond: "Hiding weapons in the demilitarized zone - that's a bit of a minefield out there."
Moon: "America's cutural contribution: one million land mines, and my hovercraft float right over them"

...suggests to me that the mines, not the hovercraft, are America's 'cultural contribution.'

But maybe that's just me.
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PostSubject: Re: Where did THAT come from?   Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:13 am

I'm aware of that.
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PostSubject: Re: Where did THAT come from?   Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:23 am

Small world.
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PostSubject: Re: Where did THAT come from?   Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:50 am

AMC Hornet wrote:
Prisoner Monkeys wrote:
Can someone please explain the scene in LALD where Bond shoots Baron Samedi in the head and it breaks like porcelain, but doesn't kill him?

To address the original question, the first 'Baron Samedi' to come up out of the grave was an effigy (with a porcelain head and moving eyes). Right after Bond shoots the effigy, the High Priest and one other superstitious goon, the real Samedi emerges, having counted six shots and taken a chance on Bond's reloading speed.

As much as I would normally be inclined to believe that the first Samedi was an effigy, it doesn't quite work IMO, in that the eye-rolling was clearly human looking. There is no doubt that Geoffrey Holder played that scene. The eye-rolling head looked, and I believe was intended to look very human. Also consider that the supernatural has already been introduced into the film, in the person of Solitaire, who does indeed have powers. Then later we have Samedi impossibly perched on the train; another supernatural feat. Thus I am inclined to believe that Eon was having some fun with the supernatural in this film, which is understandable considering that voodoo plays a big part in the story. Being a Bond film though Eon was mindful not to incorporate any pervasive supernatural theming, out of respect for the film genre that Bond occupies, which is decidely neither horror nor supernatural.

Samedi is really a very enigmatic character. At first glance, he appears to be a rather eccentric member of Kananga's entourage, but it's not terribly clear what he does. He seems to be a hanger-on, mentor-advisor type of character. Consider though that his namesake is a demon, and that Solitaire hails from a lineage of women who are high priestesses to this same demon, who derive their powers from this connection. Thus Samedi as demon in human form fits rather nicely, especially when we see later that he can't stay killed and can suddenly and impossibly appear riding the front of a moving train. Eon very deftly lays this scenario out,but doesn't emphasize it, as this is a Bond movie after all, not a voodoo-possession horror flick.

However in it's understated way, the classic deal-with-the-devil tale is all laid out for us,. Kananga has made a deal with the Baron in return for his soul. In return, the Baron assists in guiding Kananga's earthly, evil, criminal enterprises.

However the forces of good prevail, with white-knight incorruptible Bond coming to the rescue, saving both Solitaire, and the broader populace, from the machinations of evil. Meanwhile, Samedi can still laugh triumphantly at the end. He's got a whole bag of damned souls ( Kananga and minions) that he can deliver to his master iin Hades.
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PostSubject: Re: Where did THAT come from?   Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:51 am

tiffanywint wrote:
As much as I would normally be inclined to believe that the first Samedi was an effigy, it doesn't quite work IMO, in that the eye-rolling was clearly human looking. There is no doubt that Geoffrey Holder played that scene.

I agree, there is no doubt that Goeffrey Holder played both Baron Samedi and his effigy, just as Roger Moore played both Bond and his own likeness in TMWTGG (some flamers like to say that that was his best piece of acting ever). It's much less expensive and time-consuming to have an actor stand in as his own stand-in.

Remember that doubles, impersonators, statues and recursion were common themes in all of Tom Mankiewicz's Bond screenplays.
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PostSubject: Re: Where did THAT come from?   Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:31 am

AMC Hornet wrote:
tiffanywint wrote:
As much as I would normally be inclined to believe that the first Samedi was an effigy, it doesn't quite work IMO, in that the eye-rolling was clearly human looking. There is no doubt that Geoffrey Holder played that scene.

I agree, there is no doubt that Goeffrey Holder played both Baron Samedi and his effigy, just as Roger Moore played both Bond and his own likeness in TMWTGG (some flamers like to say that that was his best piece of acting ever). It's much less expensive and time-consuming to have an actor stand in as his own stand-in.

Remember that doubles, impersonators, statues and recursion were common themes in all of Tom Mankiewicz's Bond screenplays.

But still what leads me to believe that porcelain-head was not simply an effigy is that the Samedi eye-rolling was human. Suddenly the effigy was alive, yet it couldn't be, because it's head had been blown-off, but if it was animatronic, it was far too life-like. And then it was cut down, like it had no body! Yet there was real living emotion in those eyes. Eon was screwing with us. The scene makes no sense whatsoever. The scene is an enigma. Eon is playing with us. Eon I believe, purposely left the Samedi character open to interpretation. I'm sticking with my, he's supposed to be a manifestation of the actual Baron Samedi interpretation. I think the no-longer-dead Samedi, perched-on-front-of-moving-train scene, clinches the character's other-worldly nature.
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PostSubject: Re: Where did THAT come from?   Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:02 am

It still doesn't make much sense.
There is a reason why he does not move when his eyes open.The first Baron is an effigy or statue of some type with animatronic eyes. I think they did the blown off head in closeup by a matte or optical effect with Holder's face.
Why this is even there makes no sense.Perhaps tired of the devoted followers? Coffee break? Flute solo?
He appears to tackle Bond, the heretic, and is then killed by the snake coffin.
Then his reappearance on the front of the train reaffirms that he is some kind of otherworldly spiritual demon capable of surviving death.
One of the great end shot/music cue moments in cinema.
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PostSubject: Re: Where did THAT come from?   Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:29 am

hegottheboot wrote:
Then his reappearance on the front of the train reaffirms that he is some kind of otherworldly spiritual demon capable of surviving death.
One of the great end shot/music cue moments in cinema.

A great segue into the end titles, with another flaming skull.

Was that supposed to be Samedi, or Nicolas Cage?
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j7wild
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PostSubject: Re: Where did THAT come from?   Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:08 pm

In OHMSS, the thing circled in red is moving from right to left when Blofeld is jumping out.

I can't tell if it's someone's head or maybe part of the filming equipment.

@ 2:11:17 to 2:11:19 ~ Time Index

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PostSubject: Re: Where did THAT come from?   Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:56 pm

Given the sloppy editing of the film in places - like the awkward jump-cuts mid-sentence (particularly when the redshirt tells Blofeld that something is approaching Piz Gloria) - it wouldn't surprise me if it was the crew visible.

But since the exact nature of the thing is uncertain, you could easily write it off as being one of Draco's men storming Piz Gloria.
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PostSubject: Re: Where did THAT come from?   Sat Aug 11, 2012 2:11 pm

Prisoner Monkeys wrote:


But since the exact nature of the thing is uncertain, you could easily write it off as being one of Draco's men storming Piz Gloria.

Except they all gotten off it and back on the helicopters and Draco just finished counting down while looking at his watch and this was one second after they showed the timer on the explosives hit zero.

;)
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PostSubject: Re: Where did THAT come from?   Mon Aug 13, 2012 2:47 am

j7wild wrote:
Prisoner Monkeys wrote:


But since the exact nature of the thing is uncertain, you could easily write it off as being one of Draco's men storming Piz Gloria.

Except they all gotten off it and back on the helicopters and Draco just finished counting down while looking at his watch and this was one second after they showed the timer on the explosives hit zero.

;)

Maybe one of Blofeld's men then, there are all sorts of explanations as to who it could possibly be and so it is not neccasarily an error.
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