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right idea, wrong pussy
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PostSubject: Re: Ho-ho-7    Wed May 02, 2012 8:41 am

Sharky wrote:
Prisoner Monkeys wrote:
right idea, wrong pussy wrote:
No wonder Nu-Bond is made to run through drywall like he's Kool Aid Man . . .

I've never understood the objections to this scene. Drywall, while solid, isn't exactly brick.

It's about what it symbolises. Read between the plaster.

I'm not sure if this is what you mean, Sharky, but I see the drywall moment as being a bit too much overcompensation. Earlier in the scene, Bond very cooly stays in exactly the same pose, and then suddenly springs into action, which is very neat. But now he's breaking through drywall, which, apart from making me hear "Oh yeahhhhh!!!!" in my head (not the filmmakers' intended effect, I imagine) seems to be trying to advertise Bond's toughness and manliness more than is necessary. I did once read the drywall thing as a harmless gag, but QOS ruined this for me (I find it impossible to divorce CR and QOS. The filmmakers intended them to go together, and I, unfortunately, cannot divorce them in my mind). In QOS, we have Bond leaping from balcony to balacony like he's Spider-Man and falling hard to the ground with a parachute breaking his fall for about 20 meters. Come to think of it, earlier in CR we have the parkour guy fire half his magazine into the windshield of the construction vehicle Bond is driving, and not only does the windshield not break (which is a bit unlikely) but Bond doesn't even flinch. When you put these things together with Bab's objections to Bond being tranquilized in GE, I start to see a pattern. Babs seems to think that Bond must have almost superhuman powers. He must be uber-macho. This is strange, given the emphasis on Bond's emotions and on every Bond girl being "Bond's equal" (TM), but it certainly seems to be there. I'm no longer confident that the drywall thing was meant as a gag, as (for example) Bond getting hit by baseball bats and responding by hitting his assailants with a cello clearly is in TND (which is a gag that does in fact make me laugh).
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PostSubject: Re: Ho-ho-7    Wed May 02, 2012 8:59 am

Yes, the drywall thing is not a gag in the baseball bats and cello sense. It's meant to show how tough this mofo nu-Bond is. That way, when nu-Bond has his issues, trust, love etc his toughie credentials are firmly established. No-one can call him a wuss. He's covered there. You could say over-covered.
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PostSubject: Re: Ho-ho-7    Wed May 02, 2012 9:01 am

I disagree, I think you guys are reading too much into that. laugh
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PostSubject: Re: Ho-ho-7    Wed May 02, 2012 9:06 am

Makeshift Python wrote:
I disagree, I think you guys are reading too much into that. laugh

Well it can also work as a gag too. The beauty of cinema. We can all look at it differently. It did get a laugh in theatres, so the gag element is there too.
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PostSubject: Re: Ho-ho-7    Wed May 02, 2012 9:10 am

right idea, wrong pussy wrote:
I remember when GE was in production the most visible contribution Babs made was to object, vehemently, to Bond being disabled by Trevalyan with a tranquilizer dart. In her view, this wasn't tough enough for Bond. Nevermind that Bond has traditionally been subdued by his enemies by being hit on the back of the head (OP), poisoned (TLD) or tranquilized (GF) to name the examples I can think of right now. Even in 1995 Babs' objections came across as weird, as if she needed Bond to fulfill the same sort of place in her psyche as Fabio did on the covers of all those 90s romance novel covers.
Babs' psyche? Cool story bro.
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PostSubject: Re: Ho-ho-7    Wed May 02, 2012 9:14 am

Mr. Brown wrote:
right idea, wrong pussy wrote:
Even in 1995 Babs' objections came across as weird, as if she needed Bond to fulfill the same sort of place in her psyche as Fabio did on the covers of all those 90s romance novel covers. No wonder Nu-Bond is made to run through drywall like he's Kool Aid Man . . .

laugh laugh laugh

Babs is whacked. I think a symptom of the nu-Bond Babs era ,is that the directors have so much more control. Sure Forster dutifully complained about the tyrannical Eon oversight, but he sure managed to put his own stamp all over his Bond film. I think these smart directors like Forster and Mendes know exactly how to tell her what she needs to hear. Both sides have the politics and niceities well figured out. Truth is, I think Babs is happy to surrender as much control as needed to these genius directors that she hires, but she needs her props too, and they are smart enough to respond in kind. She is afterall, the great and booty-ous Babs, heir to the House-Broccoli Bond-throne.

Why couldn't House Saltzman have had a daughter to compete as well in this Game of Thrones.
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PostSubject: Re: Ho-ho-7    Wed May 02, 2012 10:09 am

tiffanywint wrote:
Why couldn't House Saltzman have had a daughter to compete as well in this Game of Thrones.

That would make great BACK TO THE FUTURE-meets-TERMINATOR fan fiction. Obsessed Bond fan races back in time to train and indoctrinate Hilary Saltzman as the anti-Babs. Hilly: get to it old chap.
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PostSubject: Re: Ho-ho-7    Wed May 02, 2012 10:23 am

Sharky wrote:
tiffanywint wrote:
Why couldn't House Saltzman have had a daughter to compete as well in this Game of Thrones.

That would make great BACK TO THE FUTURE-meets-TERMINATOR fan fiction. Obsessed Bond fan races back in time to train and indoctrinate Hilary Saltzman as the anti-Babs. Hilly: get to it old chap.

Ha, bit out of my sphere old sport. Best leave it to Monkeys. It'd be epic.
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PostSubject: Re: Ho-ho-7    Wed May 02, 2012 10:32 am

tiffanywint wrote:
Mr. Brown wrote:
right idea, wrong pussy wrote:
Even in 1995 Babs' objections came across as weird, as if she needed Bond to fulfill the same sort of place in her psyche as Fabio did on the covers of all those 90s romance novel covers. No wonder Nu-Bond is made to run through drywall like he's Kool Aid Man . . .

laugh laugh laugh

Babs is whacked. I think a symptom of the nu-Bond Babs era ,is that the directors have so much more control. Sure Forster dutifully complained about the tyrannical Eon oversight, but he sure managed to put his own stamp all over his Bond film. I think these smart directors like Forster and Mendes know exactly how to tell her what she needs to hear. Both sides have the politics and niceities well figured out. Truth is, I think Babs is happy to surrender as much control as needed to these genius directors that she hires, but she needs her props too, and they are smart enough to respond in kind. She is afterall, the great and booty-ous Babs, heir to the House-Broccoli Bond-throne.

Why couldn't House Saltzman have had a daughter to compete as well in this Game of Thrones.

I believe Saltzman did have a daughter, but when Saltzman sold his share of EON, his kids' chance of taking over for him was sold along with that share. Which is just as well, imho. I think that nepotism rarely works. The most important lesson throughout history is that organizations (governments, companies, etc.) that choose leaders based on merit flourish, while those who choose leaders based on some other rationale tend to fare less well. Choosing leaders based on heredity is particularly dicey. It's great having a powerful monarch if that monarch is Alexander the Great, Elizabeth I or Peter the Great. But what happens when those leaders die and whoever is next up on the family tree takes over? What qualifications does this new monarch have to rule other than their relation to the last monarch?

And really, I think this is a huge source of the flak Babs gets on these boards (myself included). What makes Babs qualified to be a producer, other than that she is Cubby's daughter? What other movies has she produced? What did she do before she inherited the producers' chair? MGW also inherited his position, but he did have a lot of creative input into the 80s Bond films before he took over. I think this explains the usual approach people have when criticizing EON. They let MGW off the hook, and blame Babs for the problems. I tend to do this myself, because I can at least see some qualifications in MGW's resume (he co-wrote FYEO, my favorite Bond film ever, for starters). I think it's natural, though it could easily be totally wrong. MGW might be totally supportive of and even the brainchild of recent creative directions in the series.

And to be honest, very little that I hear about or from Babs impresses me much. When you respond to the usual British newspaper crap by filing libel suits where you claim you are "deeply distressed, etc., etc.", it doesn't say much for your ability to consider alternate points of view, accept and learn from criticism, or generally be a leader who doesn't encourage groupthink (I'm referring to this news item http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-13777239 ). It makes you look extremely thin-skinned and overly sensitive to criticism. I'm not for a moment claiming that The Mail was right. Knowing British newspapers, I rather doubt it. But crying about it and (conveniently) using the lax British libel laws to shut the paper up and get damages doesn't seem to speak well of Babs. She's a public figure, not some humble person minding her business, and as a public figure, she should expect people to publish stupid crap about her. There's a reason why most celebrities ignore the usual Enquirer/parrazzi/Perez Hilton crap - because responding to it makes it seem like the story touched a nerve, or might be based on truth. And in the end, laughing about or ignoring such stories (if you're a public figure - I'm not talking about someone who is not in the public limelight) is more effective than crying about them. If you want to produce the greatest film franchise in movie history, then deal with people flinging mud. Can you imagine how people would take David Cameron/Nick Clegg/Ed Miliband filing libel suits? Or better yet, comparable public figures here in the USA, where libel laws are not nearly so generous?
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PostSubject: Re: Ho-ho-7    Wed May 02, 2012 10:39 am

tiffanywint wrote:
Babs is whacked. I think a symptom of the nu-Bond Babs era ,is that the directors have so much more control. Sure Forster dutifully complained about the tyrannical Eon oversight, but he sure managed to put his own stamp all over his Bond film. I think these smart directors like Forster and Mendes know exactly how to tell her what she needs to hear.

Which is? I'd love to know what the hired help is perceived to say to Babs to make her so....malleable...as if she can't tell when someone is simply puckering up and kissing her ass to get in her good graces. :drunken:








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PostSubject: Re: Ho-ho-7    Wed May 02, 2012 10:57 am

right idea, wrong pussy wrote:

When you respond to the usual British newspaper crap by filing libel suits where you claim you are "deeply distressed, etc., etc.", it doesn't say much for your ability to consider alternate points of view, accept and learn from criticism, or generally be a leader who doesn't encourage groupthink....I'm not for a moment claiming that The Mail was right. Knowing British newspapers, I rather doubt it. But crying about it and (conveniently) using the lax British libel laws to shut the paper up and get damages doesn't seem to speak well of Babs. She's a public figure, not some humble person minding her business, and as a public figure, she should expect people to publish stupid crap about her...

Happens all the time but she's special.She embarasses herself. Skin thin.
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PostSubject: Re: Ho-ho-7    Wed May 02, 2012 12:34 pm

There's a problem with Roger Moore swinging on a vine like Tarzan, but no problem with Daniel Craig mimicking the Kool-Aid Man.

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PostSubject: Re: Ho-ho-7    Wed May 02, 2012 12:39 pm

Mr. Brown wrote:
There's a problem with Roger Moore swinging on a vine like Tarzan, but no problem with Daniel Craig mimicking the Kool-Aid Man.


The Tarzan vine-swinging and sound effects were blatant nods to Tarzan...but I don't recall seeing Craig in a red shirt and going 'Oh yeah'.

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PostSubject: Re: Ho-ho-7    Wed May 02, 2012 12:41 pm

They're of equal stupidity.
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PostSubject: Re: Ho-ho-7    Wed May 02, 2012 11:43 pm

Mr. Brown wrote:
They're of equal stupidity.

Indeed and while Moore's 'Tazan' is overtly there as a joke, it's only ever going to be interpreted as the film poking fun at the audience, it may reflect on the mentality of the filmakers but it really suggests nothing about the thought processes of the central character. By contrast the 'HULK Smash' - brute force and ignorance - moments of CR and QoS become a character trait, a shift in the style of character we are following, whereby adrenalin is favoured over ingenuity something I find quite unbalanced over the duration of the last two films, so the Kool-Aid moment - though pretty innocuous in isolation - suddenly becomes representative of something less palatable in hindsight.
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PostSubject: q   Wed May 02, 2012 11:56 pm

lachesis wrote:
Mr. Brown wrote:
They're of equal stupidity.

Indeed and while Moore's 'Tazan' is overtly there as a joke, it's only ever going to be interpreted as the film poking fun at the audience, it may reflect on the mentality of the filmakers but it really suggests nothing about the thought processes of the central character. By contrast the 'HULK Smash' - brute force and ignorance - moments of CR and QoS become a character trait, a shift in the style of character we are following, whereby adrenalin is favoured over ingenuity something I find quite unbalanced over the duration of the last two films, so the Kool-Aid moment - though pretty innocuous in isolation - suddenly becomes representative of something less palatable in hindsight.

Brute force in comparison to Mollaka's speed and athleticism. And no ignorance that I can see.

I agree with Doggie that it's damned exasperating for fans to bemoan the feminine emotionalism of the DC films on the one hand, and simultaneously kvetch when Bond displays the toughness that is one of Fleming Bond's hallmarks. Frankly, it makes these fans look like spoiled, irrational children and seriously undermines their credibility.
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PostSubject: Re: Ho-ho-7    Thu May 03, 2012 12:23 am

Perilagu Khan wrote:
lachesis wrote:
Mr. Brown wrote:
They're of equal stupidity.

Indeed and while Moore's 'Tazan' is overtly there as a joke, it's only ever going to be interpreted as the film poking fun at the audience, it may reflect on the mentality of the filmakers but it really suggests nothing about the thought processes of the central character. By contrast the 'HULK Smash' - brute force and ignorance - moments of CR and QoS become a character trait, a shift in the style of character we are following, whereby adrenalin is favoured over ingenuity something I find quite unbalanced over the duration of the last two films, so the Kool-Aid moment - though pretty innocuous in isolation - suddenly becomes representative of something less palatable in hindsight.

Brute force in comparison to Mollaka's speed and athleticism. And no ignorance that I can see.

I agree with Doggie that it's damned exasperating for fans to bemoan the feminine emotionalism of the DC films on the one hand, and simultaneously kvetch when Bond displays the toughness that is one of Fleming Bond's hallmarks. Frankly, it makes these fans look like spoiled, irrational children and seriously undermines their credibility.

Surely that depends on the relative importance you place on the issues (or in this case the importance you percieve it means to others), these are discussion boards not scientific proofs, we speak as to our preferences with the assumption its understood we are all fans and don't need to sugar coat or pussy foot around.

But in real terms the fans are spoiled, is there a more genuinely diverse franchise than Bond, is it any wonder there is disagreement in what those fans, all of different ages and backgrounds expect of him? At the end of the day regardless of our view of whats gone before, we all want a good film to emerge and for Bond to live on, we actually all want some kind of emo element, we all want some kind of character evolution, we all want some evidence of the strengths both physical and mental he displays......the only real discussion is where the balance lies rather than what should or should not be presented....much like the Tarzan/kool-aid moment, these are just moments what they represent is really only worthy of discussion in light of the effect they have on balance of elements in the film around them.

As you rightly point out 'Brute force in comparison to Mollaka's speed and athleticism.' is fine as long as the remainder of the film takes the oppertunity to display other more subtle skills - this is why I feel the scene can work in isolation but fails because the focus is too relentless on the physicality and too little on ingenuity, wit or guile - imo the balance is off and the extremes therefore stand out.

Disclaimer: No actors or filmakers were hurt in the making of these comments, the letterbombs however......!
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PostSubject: Re: Ho-ho-7    Thu May 03, 2012 12:42 am

I hear you, lachesis. However, I'm beginning to get the sense that certain fans have carved out identities as anti-Micolli attack dogs (God knows I've done my fair share of attacking!), and as such, are incapable of giving credit when it is due. There are certainly grounds for criticism with the Brosnan and Craig films, but there are also aspects of these movies that succeed. The criticisms should be made, but in order for them to have any real intellectual impact, praise should also be meted out when called for. Failure to do so makes one look like a zealot rather than a reasonable critic.

PS--I don't recall anybody ever defending OP's Tarzan scene; I know you'll find many serious fans who hold the so-called "Kool-Aid" scene in high regard.
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PostSubject: Re: Ho-ho-7    Thu May 03, 2012 10:03 am

Perilagu Khan wrote:
I hear you, lachesis. However, I'm beginning to get the sense that certain fans have carved out identities as anti-Micolli attack dogs (God knows I've done my fair share of attacking!), and as such, are incapable of giving credit when it is due.

Agreed. Babs and co are damned if they do, and damned if they don't. It's no longer fun debate...hmmm, I'll just stick to the other threads....



Last edited by Mrs Aural Sects on Thu May 03, 2012 10:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Ho-ho-7    Thu May 03, 2012 10:07 am

Such is the world of fandom. Fan is indeed short for fanatic.

Well...it is. That's enough drink for one night.
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