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 2012 Sight & Sound Survey

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Harmsway
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PostSubject: Re: 2012 Sight & Sound Survey   2012 Sight & Sound Survey - Page 2 EmptyMon Aug 06, 2012 1:22 am

Largo's Shark wrote:
It's a general trend demonstrated in Spielberg, Welles, and Minnelli being toppled by Kubrick, Powell and Sirk.

I have no interest in seeing Welles toppled (he's perhaps my all-around favorite film director). But I do greatly prefer Kubrick, Powell, and Sirk to Spielberg and Minnelli, so I guess I'm a contributor to the trend.

Largo's Shark wrote:
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As far as VERTIGO's appeal to contemporary critics, though, he's not entirely wrong, but I don't view many of the same trends with the same dismay that White does.

Considering the state of contemporary film criticism, I can't share your enthusiasm.

I wouldn't say I'm enthusiastic about the trends, per se, just not wholly pessimistic. White's outlook is all black and white.
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PostSubject: Re: 2012 Sight & Sound Survey   2012 Sight & Sound Survey - Page 2 EmptyMon Aug 06, 2012 5:14 am

Largo's Shark wrote:
While I don't agree with him on its "soullessness" (if only for Benny's score alone), he is right about it being ridiculously overrated by this generation of cineastes. It's a general trend demonstrated in Spielberg, Welles, and Minnelli being toppled by Kubrick, Powell and Sirk.
I don't see anything particularly soulless in Powell or Sirk, and if anything Welles belongs with Kubrick in their place for his often chilly formalism (a critique I've heard thrown at KANE recently and appreciated, if not fully agreed with). Sirk in particular may seem absurdly insincere at times (WRITTEN ON THE WIND), but at other times he sublimely emotional and soulful (THERE'S ALWAYS TOMORROW, IMITATION OF LIFE, ALL THAT HEAVEN ALLOWS).
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Largo's Shark
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PostSubject: Re: 2012 Sight & Sound Survey   2012 Sight & Sound Survey - Page 2 EmptyMon Aug 06, 2012 5:26 am

HJackson wrote:
Largo's Shark wrote:
While I don't agree with him on its "soullessness" (if only for Benny's score alone), he is right about it being ridiculously overrated by this generation of cineastes. It's a general trend demonstrated in Spielberg, Welles, and Minnelli being toppled by Kubrick, Powell and Sirk.

I don't see anything particularly soulless in Powell or Sirk

That wasn't my point. The common denominator of those films is that they have more insular, solipsistic appeal among film snobs today, who are reacting against more popularist cinema - whether it's Welles, Minnelli, Spielberg or Lean. Triumph of the hipster. Artifice over feeling. Irony over sincerity.
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Harmsway
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PostSubject: Re: 2012 Sight & Sound Survey   2012 Sight & Sound Survey - Page 2 EmptyMon Aug 06, 2012 12:43 pm

Welles' cinema is altogether pretty far from "popularist."
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PostSubject: Re: 2012 Sight & Sound Survey   2012 Sight & Sound Survey - Page 2 EmptyMon Aug 06, 2012 12:44 pm

All together, for sure, but I was really talking about KANE.
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PostSubject: Re: 2012 Sight & Sound Survey   2012 Sight & Sound Survey - Page 2 EmptyMon Aug 06, 2012 12:47 pm

Largo's Shark wrote:
All together, for sure, but I was really talking about KANE.
One film does not a popularist director make. (And I'm not altogether sure that KANE is all that popularist, either. It's had regular folks shrugging and saying "What's the big deal?" for quite some time.)
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PostSubject: Re: 2012 Sight & Sound Survey   2012 Sight & Sound Survey - Page 2 EmptyMon Aug 06, 2012 12:52 pm

Harmsway wrote:
Largo's Shark wrote:
All together, for sure, but I was really talking about KANE.

One film does not a popularist director make. (And I'm not altogether sure that KANE is all that popularist, either. It's had regular folks shrugging and saying "What's the big deal?" for quite some time.)

Do note that in the post you quoted I say "more popularist." I'm talking in relative terms here.
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Harmsway
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PostSubject: Re: 2012 Sight & Sound Survey   2012 Sight & Sound Survey - Page 2 EmptyMon Aug 06, 2012 1:13 pm

I'm not sure KANE is any more accessible to the public than VERTIGO.
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Largo's Shark
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PostSubject: Re: 2012 Sight & Sound Survey   2012 Sight & Sound Survey - Page 2 EmptyMon Aug 06, 2012 1:20 pm

That's where you're wrong.
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Harmsway
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PostSubject: Re: 2012 Sight & Sound Survey   2012 Sight & Sound Survey - Page 2 EmptyMon Aug 06, 2012 3:19 pm

KANE has repeatedly met with shrugs and indifference from a public that finds it stodgy and dull. CITIZEN KANE is a critic's idea of a great movie through-and-through (like VERTIGO, it's a wonderful film to use as an entry point for discussing auteur theory).

Another thing that White also gets wrong: VERTIGO's standing has been rising over a full three decades. VERTIGO first appeared in the Sight & Sound top 10 in 1982, and has steadily gained momentum in the polls since. It's not, as he claimed, simply something that came about because of the re-release in '96.
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Harmsway
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PostSubject: Re: 2012 Sight & Sound Survey   2012 Sight & Sound Survey - Page 2 EmptyThu Aug 09, 2012 9:38 pm

Owen Gleiberman agrees with Armond White when it comes to VERTIGO toppling KANE, though he thinks the placement of MULHOLLAND DRIVE really reveals where the Sight & Sound critics' heads are at.
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PostSubject: Re: 2012 Sight & Sound Survey   2012 Sight & Sound Survey - Page 2 EmptyThu Aug 09, 2012 10:01 pm

Surprisingly good article for Entertainment Weekly. I thought this sentence was spot on.

"But just as Stewart’s Scottie made over Kim Novak, critics have made over Vertigo into a lofty sublime canto that they gaze at and fall in love with because they can see, in the heady mirror of its interlocking love-sick enigmas, a glimpse of themselves."
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Harmsway
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PostSubject: Re: 2012 Sight & Sound Survey   2012 Sight & Sound Survey - Page 2 EmptyThu Aug 09, 2012 11:51 pm

I think the article--like Armond's--stumbles when it gets onto the notion of critics "losing" a sense of popular taste. (Have they ever really been in touch with it, at least when it comes to these sorts of canon-building exercises?) And when Gleiberman gets on to Lynch, I find his distinctions between BLUE VELVET and MULHOLLAND DRIVE to be drawn a bit too strongly, even if I agree with him that BLUE VELVET is the superior, more essential work.

But I do agree with him that there is a very significant connection between MULHOLLAND DRIVE's high placement and VERTIGO taking the top spot, and his comments about film critics' obsession with deconstruction are right on the money.
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Largo's Shark
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PostSubject: Re: 2012 Sight & Sound Survey   2012 Sight & Sound Survey - Page 2 EmptyFri Aug 10, 2012 12:00 am

Harmsway wrote:
I think the article--like Armond's--stumbles when it gets onto the notion of critics "losing" a sense of popular taste. (Have they ever really been in touch with it, at least when it comes to these sorts of canon-building exercises?)

The (entirely deserved) lofty critical status of LAWRENCE OE ARABIA on previous critic's lists (maybe not Sight & Sound, but others - interesting that it's absent here, along with the last BFI "top ten") is a good example, along with praise of Spielberg.
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PostSubject: Re: 2012 Sight & Sound Survey   2012 Sight & Sound Survey - Page 2 EmptyFri Aug 10, 2012 1:50 am

We're talking specifically Sight & Sound here, which has always had its own culture, and is also the first of its kind to dethrone KANE with VERTIGO. I don't think it makes much sense to bring in other polls which represent different cultures and voting blocks, particularly when there's no evidence that any of the trends in evidence with Sight & Sound are also at play there.

And while you and Armond adore him, I do not ever think there has been a robust celebration of Spielberg from the Sight & Sound group. I'll grant you that Lean used to place better on the Sight & Sound list, and I'm not sure why he doesn't make a stronger appearance in this poll, or in the 2002 poll (indeed, there are a lot of curious differences between the 2002 and 2012 polls, with some very popular filmmakers making stronger showings in '02 than in '12; such is the inconsistency of polls, I guess).

I maintain that the Sight & Sound has always generally been a very snobby, not particularly audience-friendly kind of list, and I maintain that these sorts of canon-building exercises, when built by (relatively) serious critics and not by broader pools of folks (ala the AFI), tend to be not very representative of popular taste.
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Largo's Shark
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PostSubject: Re: 2012 Sight & Sound Survey   2012 Sight & Sound Survey - Page 2 EmptyFri Aug 10, 2012 12:02 pm

Harmsway wrote:
I'll grant you that Lean used to place better on the Sight & Sound list, and I'm not sure why he doesn't make a stronger appearance in this poll, or in the 2002 poll (indeed, there are a lot of curious differences between the 2002 and 2012 polls, with some very popular filmmakers making stronger showings in '02 than in '12; such is the inconsistency of polls, I guess).

I reckon there's more than inconsistency of the model at work, here. A relatively snobby and parochial subset of the population getting even more snobby and parochial is not just a slight variance. I bet you within in a decade it'll be even worse.

Harmsway wrote:
I maintain that the Sight & Sound has always generally been a very snobby, not particularly audience-friendly kind of list, and I maintain that these sorts of canon-building exercises, when built by (relatively) serious critics and not by broader pools of folks (ala the AFI), tend to be not very representative of popular taste.

Representative of taste among filmmakers and critics, though. It's still an interesting barometer of changing values and aesthetics, even if the sample isn't as broad as more popular poll would be.
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PostSubject: Re: 2012 Sight & Sound Survey   2012 Sight & Sound Survey - Page 2 EmptyFri Aug 10, 2012 12:43 pm

Largo's Shark wrote:
A relatively snobby and parochial subset of the population getting even more snobby and parochial is not just a slight variance.
Probably. But this is still a much less snobby list than the '62 version.

Largo's Shark wrote:
Representative of taste among filmmakers and critics, though. It's still an interesting barometer of changing values and aesthetics, even if the sample isn't as broad as more popular poll would be.
The Sight & Sound critics' top 10--which is the publicized one--has some sharp differences with the filmmaker's top 10. And that was true of the few times they've done it in the past, too. Those who are complaining are complaining about the critics' poll; I haven't seen anyone complaining that TOKYO STORY dethroned KANE and doesn't deserve to be number 1.
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PostSubject: Re: 2012 Sight & Sound Survey   2012 Sight & Sound Survey - Page 2 EmptySat Aug 11, 2012 9:53 am

Armond on Twitter.

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Dont get me wrong. I like Vertigo but hate what its been turned into.

http://fr.twitter.com/3xchair
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Harmsway
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PostSubject: Re: 2012 Sight & Sound Survey   2012 Sight & Sound Survey - Page 2 EmptyFri Aug 17, 2012 4:28 am

The individual ballots for the Sight & Sound poll are now available for your perusal.

You can also look at all the films that received votes, and see who voted for them.

The full top 100 is considerably more varied than just the top 50 appeared to be. Some really curious choices on some of the ballots, too (one ballot even features ANCHORMAN). It's interesting to note that VERTIGO reached the top spot with votes from only 23% of those surveyed.

For Sharky, here's Armond White's ballot:

Quote :
Avventura, L' 1960 Michelangelo Antonioni
Intolerance 1916 D.W. Griffith
Jules et Jim 1962 François Truffaut
Lawrence of Arabia 1962 David Lean
Lola 1961 Jacques Demy
Magnificent Ambersons, The 1942 Orson Welles
Nashville 1975 Robert Altman
Nouvelle Vague 1990 Jean-Luc Godard
Passion of Joan of Arc 1927 Carl Theodor Dreyer
Sansho Dayu 1954 Mizoguchi Kenji
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PostSubject: Re: 2012 Sight & Sound Survey   2012 Sight & Sound Survey - Page 2 EmptyFri Aug 17, 2012 5:23 am

I'm not really sure why people are getting bent out of shape over this, especially esteemed critics. VERTIGO's a great film. But, now it's not that great because people recognized it as being great?

Some of my comments (well, mainly complaints) about the list:

- I noticed that THE TREE OF LIFE made #102. Pretty laughable, considering it shouldn't even be listed.

- Cassavetes doesn't even appear until #144?

- No mention of Brian De Palma, but STAR WARS and E.T. make the list.

- Re: Wim Wender -- No WINGS OF DESIRE or THE AMERICAN FRIEND?

- Nice to see plenty of Bresson. Too little of Truffaut (and not his greatest films), too much of Godard (laughed when I saw that 2 OR 3 THINGS I KNOW ABOUT HER made the list). No Clouzot? No Chabrol? No Rohmer?

- A CLOCKWORK ORANGE and GOODFELLAS seem to be popular fillers. They don't belong on the list.

- Where's THE SHOOTING?

Oh, and this:
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Where's MRS. DOUBTFIRE?
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PostSubject: Re: 2012 Sight & Sound Survey   2012 Sight & Sound Survey - Page 2 EmptyFri Aug 17, 2012 5:30 am

Guess it's no real surprise Armond picked "Intolerance."
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PostSubject: Re: 2012 Sight & Sound Survey   2012 Sight & Sound Survey - Page 2 EmptyFri Aug 17, 2012 5:35 am

Hand-picked from his INTRO TO CLASSIC MOVIES textbook from his Columbia University days.
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PostSubject: Re: 2012 Sight & Sound Survey   2012 Sight & Sound Survey - Page 2 EmptyFri Aug 17, 2012 11:40 am

Control wrote:
I'm not really sure why people are getting bent out of shape over this, especially esteemed critics. VERTIGO's a great film.

It's a very good film, but by no means is it "great."

Control wrote:
Hand-picked from his INTRO TO CLASSIC MOVIES textbook from his Columbia University days.

Bollox.

Armond White wrote:
Avventura, L' 1960 Michelangelo Antonioni
Intolerance 1916 D.W. Griffith
Jules et Jim 1962 François Truffaut
Lawrence of Arabia 1962 David Lean
Lola 1961 Jacques Demy
Magnificent Ambersons, The 1942 Orson Welles
Nashville 1975 Robert Altman
Nouvelle Vague 1990 Jean-Luc Godard
Passion of Joan of Arc 1927 Carl Theodor Dreyer
Sansho Dayu 1954 Mizoguchi Kenji

Quote :
CASABLANCA (1942)
GASLIGHT (1944)
THE WIZARD OF OZ (1939)
HIS GIRL FRIDAY (1940)
GONE WITH THE WIND (1939)
LAURA (1944)
ALL ABOUT EVE (1950)
RED RIVER (1948)
SHERLOCK JR. (1924)
CITIZEN KANE (1941)

Nothing like that list.
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Harmsway
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PostSubject: Re: 2012 Sight & Sound Survey   2012 Sight & Sound Survey - Page 2 EmptyFri Aug 17, 2012 12:25 pm

Sure VERTIGO is great. I don't know how else you'd measure greatness if it isn't.
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PostSubject: Re: 2012 Sight & Sound Survey   2012 Sight & Sound Survey - Page 2 EmptyFri Aug 17, 2012 12:31 pm

Largo's Shark wrote:
Bollox.

Armond White wrote:
Avventura, L' 1960 Michelangelo Antonioni
Intolerance 1916 D.W. Griffith
Jules et Jim 1962 François Truffaut
Lawrence of Arabia 1962 David Lean
Lola 1961 Jacques Demy
Magnificent Ambersons, The 1942 Orson Welles
Nashville 1975 Robert Altman
Nouvelle Vague 1990 Jean-Luc Godard
Passion of Joan of Arc 1927 Carl Theodor Dreyer
Sansho Dayu 1954 Mizoguchi Kenji

Quote :
CASABLANCA (1942)
GASLIGHT (1944)
THE WIZARD OF OZ (1939)
HIS GIRL FRIDAY (1940)
GONE WITH THE WIND (1939)
LAURA (1944)
ALL ABOUT EVE (1950)
RED RIVER (1948)
SHERLOCK JR. (1924)
CITIZEN KANE (1941)

Nothing like that list.

White's list is a little more broad minded, but outside of LOLA and NOUVELLE VAGUE, nothing on his list is particularly unusual.
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