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 The ALIEN Series / Prometheus (2012)

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Makeshift Python
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PostSubject: Re: The ALIEN Series / Prometheus (2012)   Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:30 pm

Fairbairn-Sykes wrote:
RESURRECTION is a fun/dumb epilogue, PROMETHEUS is an intriguing/flawed prologue, but the first three films still form the core of the story for me.

Yeah I'd say that sums it up nicely. To me its the Ellen Ripley vs Aliens Trilogy, then there are the spin-offs that take place in totally different time periods.
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PostSubject: Re: The ALIEN Series / Prometheus (2012)   Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:46 pm

Hahaha Cameron cut the reel himself against all execs advice. You got the wrong end of the man.
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PostSubject: Re: The ALIEN Series / Prometheus (2012)   Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:51 pm

Fairbairn-Sykes wrote:
RESURRECTION is a fun/dumb epilogue, PROMETHEUS is an intriguing/flawed prologue, but the first three films still form the core of the story for me.

RESURRECTION is far from dumb. It just doesn't wear its artistic aspirations on its sleeve.
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PostSubject: Re: The ALIEN Series / Prometheus (2012)   Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:34 am

PROMETHEUS is dropping like a rock at the US box office.

http://boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=daily&id=prometheus.htm
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PostSubject: Re: The ALIEN Series / Prometheus (2012)   Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:16 am

It's an R-rated blockbuster that you have to think a little bit about. Those numbers aren't that surprising.
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PostSubject: Re: The ALIEN Series / Prometheus (2012)   Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:17 am

Makeshift Python wrote:
I think cutting the scene out helps retain their intelligence somewhat, and then you have bits like when they cut the power in the complex and know how to open doors. You could argue with 3 it acts more like an animal since it came out of one (would have made more sense to cocoon its victims for the queen though). By RESURRECTION it seems like they're about as smart as household pets.

I thought they seemed really smart in RES. The bit about how they get out of their cage makes them at least as smart as, say, the cloud creature in Trek's OBSESSION, and more motivated as well.
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PostSubject: Re: The ALIEN Series / Prometheus (2012)   Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:24 am

I take it somehow the queen embryo fused with Ripley's, so the her (the queen) progeny gained a practically human intelligence, in so far as problem solving, planning, spatial ability, pack coordination etc. JP3 took it a step further with the raptors ("they were as smart as primates").
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PostSubject: Re: The ALIEN Series / Prometheus (2012)   Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:33 am









8)
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PostSubject: Re: The ALIEN Series / Prometheus (2012)   Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:06 pm

Saw this today. Stupid film.
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PostSubject: Re: The ALIEN Series / Prometheus (2012)   Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:43 pm

Largo's Shark wrote:
I take it somehow the queen embryo fused with Ripley's, so the her (the queen) progeny gained a practically human intelligence, in so far as problem solving, planning, spatial ability, pack coordination etc.
The idea is that xenomorphs assimilate the traits of the host. The more they reproduce through a species, the more they have in common with that species. Since the embryo Ripley had inside her can be traced back to one of the original outbreaks, it has acquired more and more human-like traits in its physiology. That's how it ends up getting to the point where it does not need to reproduce through facehuggers, and instead has a womb - and why the Newborn is a clear fusion of human and xenomorph.
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PostSubject: Re: The ALIEN Series / Prometheus (2012)   Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:45 pm

Posted on another forum.


"The whole theme of the movie is the dichotomy between creators and created; The Engineers/Humanity/Xenomorphs, Weyland/Vickers/David and God/Humnity/Science; In the first and main example, there's humanity, the engineers and the xenomorphs; in my opinion, I think David figured out the Engineers game and calls it out onscreen; "Sometimes to create, you have to destroy", he says to Shaw, and his meaning is two fold; he means that while the engineers were creators of humans, we ended up being surpassed by their second creation, the Xenomorphs; that's what happened 2000 years earlier; the Engineers were on their way to seed earth and infect humanity to further move their experiment, when the outbreak happened; David tells Halloway about how dissapointing it would be to meet your creator, only to find out he just made you because he could...and thats what David has figured out; humans are a discarded experiment, perhaps even a failure...the xenomorphs are the ultimate lifeform, and thus, humans are nothing more than breeding stock for the engineers (we see that the engineers are aware of the Xenomorphs and their life cycle in the murals and the carvings in the urn chamber); the other meaning of David's statement is about his own existence; he is Weyland's creation superior to his creator in form and function, yet he is bound to serve him; Shaw states that if Weyland were to die, David would be free...and didnt David state that all children want the death of their fathers? I think that the movie's script leaves this to be far too vague, and that kills the heavy themes of the film, which in this case is David's betreyal of his God and Father, Weyland, and the Engineers marking humans as a failed experiment to be discarded.

The second example is in the relationship of Weyland and his two children, David and Vickers; you can tell that Vickers is a failure to Weyland; in his eyes, she will not surpass him or even live up to his expectations, so he made David as his heir and Legacy, thus creating a rift between all three; Vickers calls him out when she tells him that "a king has his reign, and then he dies", in her eyes, Weyland has cheated her out of her legacy and destiny by creating David, thus destroying the circle of children taking over their fathers; meanwhile, David feels cheated and is resentful of being subjugated by inferior beings, and perhaps even of being denied of recognition as superior; in fact, you could say that the whole movie and its events are designed and manipulated by David in order to free himself from his creator.

Finally, you have the clash between God/Man/Science; Shaw's arc is the main expositor of this one, as you see her faith be tested against meeting her creators; Charlie, having no faith and believing only in science, gives up when he believes God is dead; Shaw, as someone of faith, sees only another question, another truth to pursue; and in the end, Shaw is the one that survives, and chooses to believe and have faith, and continue pursuing her truth; its not an anti-science message, but rather a message that faith and science are hand to hand in helping mankind survive and pursue the truth of their existence; at the very end, David, a product of science with no soul, questions Shaws insistence to find the truth about the Engineers, and she anwers that she simply needs to know, that she believes there's an answer out there, and that David, not being human, would never understand...and then she says she's sorry, and David replied that its okay...because David himself has accepted he wont ever understand her either, even when he's now free from Wayland; in the end, the whole idea that drives Prometheus is the same as the myth that gives the film its namesake; the idea of a creator and creation clashing, of God against science and of faith versus fact, and its a shame that the script , flawed and muddled as it is, doesnt explore this idea in a more extensive and clearer way...at least, thats my opinion."
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PostSubject: Re: The ALIEN Series / Prometheus (2012)   Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:42 am

That's some highfalutin' stuff there ... I just thought the 'king has his reign' stuff was a regurgitation of Commodus before he offs his dad in GLADIATOR (which visually, is just a knockoff of Batty's offing his father in BR.)

The way this all tracks out seems like the script ideas were assembled on a big dry erase board, so it SEEMED by connecting these lines that all plot points were addressed ... but then nobody bothered to see that the actual words didn't live up to any of these ideas, and in fact often seemed at odds with them.

It'll be interesting to see if the additions on disk (which I assume will include the others not seen in the opening bit) serve to clarify any of these points or just make things even more scattershot. My own interest in the disk has to do more with wanting to read the original guy's script, before the Abrams guy came on.
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PostSubject: Re: The ALIEN Series / Prometheus (2012)   Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:25 pm

So is Armond White going to start liking this now? I imagine he hates the Promotheus hate since that means he and the internet fanboys agree on something! Sort of like how he gave the Hurt Locker a good review and started bashing it once it became an Oscar contender..
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PostSubject: Re: The ALIEN Series / Prometheus (2012)   Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:53 pm

Armond White will only champion lost causes -- this why for him the Tyler Perry movies are the pinnacle of artistic achievement.
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PostSubject: Re: The ALIEN Series / Prometheus (2012)   Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:09 pm

Fairbairn-Sykes wrote:
Armond White will only champion lost causes -- this why for him the Tyler Perry movies are the pinnacle of artistic achievement.

Along with Transformers 2, Adam Sandler, Nicholas Sparks and Twilight.

Also isn't his complaint about the use of Lawrence of Arabia in Promotheus and Hello Dolly in Wall-E a bit hypocritical when Spielberg does the same thing? e.g. The Quiet Man in ET.
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PostSubject: Re: The ALIEN Series / Prometheus (2012)   Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:46 pm

Triviachamp wrote:
Sort of like how he gave the Hurt Locker a good review and started bashing it once it became an Oscar contender..

He liked it, but simply thought the love-in over it got overblown. It was alright, but nothing more. The same with Harmsway and THE ARTIST.

Fairbairn-Sykes wrote:
Armond White will only champion lost causes -- this why for him the Tyler Perry movies are the pinnacle of artistic achievement.

Yeah right.

http://nypress.com/for-oprah-winfrey-fans-whove-considered-victimhood-when-too-many-coincidences-are-enough/

Are the Coen brothers, Wes Anderson, Spielberg, and Mike Leigh lost causes?

Triviachamp wrote:
Along with Transformers 2, Adam Sandler, Nicholas Sparks and Twilight.

Again, you're overstating his praise. Did you get that from this lame list?



Talk about cherry picking reviews.

Triviachamp wrote:
Also isn't his complaint about the use of Lawrence of Arabia in Promotheus and Hello Dolly in Wall-E a bit hypocritical when Spielberg does the same thing? e.g. The Quiet Man in ET.

The difference is that ET is a superb film, and the scene in question is an important part of Elliott's development. The references in WALL-E and PROMETHEUS are utterly trivial. .
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PostSubject: Re: The ALIEN Series / Prometheus (2012)   Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:50 am

Largo's Shark wrote:
Triviachamp wrote:
Sort of like how he gave the Hurt Locker a good review and started bashing it once it became an Oscar contender..

He liked it, but simply thought the love-in over it got overblown. It was alright, but nothing more. The same with Harmsway and THE ARTIST.

In his review he proclaimed it one of the best Iraq War Movies ever and compares it favourably to Apocalypse Now but nine months later he was calling it "totally unexceptional." Seems like a complete turnaround to me. Oh and by the way I thought that the Hurt Locker was not that great either so it's not like I'm mad that he didn't like it.

Largo's Shark wrote:

Triviachamp wrote:
Along with Transformers 2, Adam Sandler, Nicholas Sparks and Twilight.

Again, you're overstating his praise. Did you get that from this lame list?


Never saw that before. It excludes his praise of Jonah Hex and Jack and Jill after all. laugh

Largo's Shark wrote:

Triviachamp wrote:
Also isn't his complaint about the use of Lawrence of Arabia in Promotheus and Hello Dolly in Wall-E a bit hypocritical when Spielberg does the same thing? e.g. The Quiet Man in ET.

The difference is that ET is a superb film, and the scene in question is an important part of Elliott's development. The references in WALL-E and PROMETHEUS are utterly trivial. .

He describes those references as "trash[ing]" the other films which I find to be a bit much. He also thinks David is a jab at AI as supposed to an allusion to Pinocchio itself apparently so he can defend Spielberg from his critics.
The difference is that he loves Spielberg. Certainly liking Spielberg is rather mainstream but Spielberg is not exactly extremely well liked among certain film snobs. And loving War Horse and Crystal Skull are not extremely mainstream among the internet. His love of Spielberg and the Coens is one of his predictable traits, along with his hate of Fincher, Nolan and Noah Bambauch.



Believe me I find the Nolanites, Fincherians and Tarantinoites extremely annoying (despite liking Nolan's Batman movies) so his riling them up is somewhat amusing. But his response to the Hurt Locker makes him look like a contrarian for the sake of being one which isn't really all that impressive. Still his pans to The Dark Knight Rises and Django Unchained will be amusing, as will the online response. laugh
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PostSubject: Re: The ALIEN Series / Prometheus (2012)   Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:06 am

Triviachamp wrote:
Largo's Shark wrote:
Triviachamp wrote:
Sort of like how he gave the Hurt Locker a good review and started bashing it once it became an Oscar contender..

He liked it, but simply thought the love-in over it got overblown. It was alright, but nothing more. The same with Harmsway and THE ARTIST.

In his review he proclaimed it one of the best Iraq War Movies ever and compares it favourably to Apocalypse Now....

Keep in mind that Armond thought APOCALYPSE NOW was a bloated mess and despised almost every Iraq war movie released to that point (i.e. JARHEAD, REDACTED, STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURE, STOP-LOSS etc). The only one he liked was BATTLE FOR HADITHA, but that was a documentary. l found his apparent 360 weird too, but it makes more sense if you look at in context.

Triviachamp wrote:
Believe me I find the Nolanites, Fincherians and Tarantinoites extremely annoying (despite liking Nolan's Batman movies) so his riling them up is somewhat amusing. But his response to the Hurt Locker makes him look like a contrarian for the sake of being one which isn't really all that impressive. Still his pans to The Dark Knight Rises and Django Unchained will be amusing, as will the online response. laugh

Glad we're on the same wavelength. :)
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PostSubject: Re: The ALIEN Series / Prometheus (2012)   Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:13 am

Largo's Shark wrote:
The references in WALL-E and PROMETHEUS are utterly trivial. .

OH MAN, that bugged me SO MUCH. I thought the idea of David watching Lawrence and using the "not minding that it hurts" scene as a role model was a really cool idea, and I thought when watching it "man, this is sure setting up some neat thematic material for down the road" and then it NEVER COMES BACK. We never get some crucial scene where David repeats that line or it reveals something about his worldview and actions. Which is really frustrating because overall those initial scenes of David alone, watching that film, etc. are so effective.

Once again, PROMETHEUS is a film of great ideas that never have a chance to go anywhere or coalesce properly.
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PostSubject: Re: The ALIEN Series / Prometheus (2012)   Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:52 pm

Largo's Shark wrote:


Keep in mind that Armond thought APOCALYPSE NOW was a bloated mess and despised almost every Iraq war movie released to that point (i.e. JARHEAD, REDACTED, STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURE, STOP-LOSS etc). The only one he liked was BATTLE FOR HADITHA, but that was a documentary. l found his apparent 360 weird too, but it makes more sense if you look at in context.

I got that he didn't like Apocalypse Now since he called it "showy [and] undisciplined"; I mentioned it because one of the more annoying aspects of White's style is his use of the false binary so him comparing Hurt Locker favourably to Apocalypse Now is high praise as supposed to damning with faint praise.

Re: the context. I get the feeling that he turned on the Hurt Locker because it was being championed by "anti-war" liberals and because he championed Kathryn Bigelow as someone who was being unfairly ignored by a hypocritical Hollywood Old Boys Club. Seems like he was thinking of the Hurt Locker as one of those films he would put on his annual end of year Better than List as something that was unfairly ignored by the Sexist Liberal Hollywood Establishment. Once it became obvious that the very same Sexist Liberal Hollywood Establishment liked the Hurt Locker he turned on it.

Quote :

OH MAN, that bugged me SO MUCH. I thought the idea of David watching Lawrence and using the "not minding that it hurts" scene as a role model was a really cool idea, and I thought when watching it "man, this is sure setting up some neat thematic material for down the road" and then it NEVER COMES BACK. We never get some crucial scene where David repeats that line or it reveals something about his worldview and actions. Which is really frustrating because overall those initial scenes of David alone, watching that film, etc. are so effective.

Perhaps Shaw should have asked David's disembodied head how it felt and he would quote that line? Or would that be terrible?
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PostSubject: Re: The ALIEN Series / Prometheus (2012)   Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:31 pm

Oh I'm just wondering, who is Armond's favourite Bond? Moore or Lazenby? Or Barry Nelson? laugh Is his favourite film MR?
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PostSubject: Re: The ALIEN Series / Prometheus (2012)   Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:40 pm

Triviachamp wrote:
Oh I'm just wondering, who is Armond's favourite Bond? Moore or Lazenby? Or Barry Nelson? laugh Is his favourite film MR?

Ask him on Twitter. ;)

https://twitter.com/#!/3xchair
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PostSubject: Re: The ALIEN Series / Prometheus (2012)   Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:59 am

I have seen it twice. Do not be fooled into thinking this means I found it a particularly good or interesting feature, but it did have certain elements that made a second viewing worthwhile.

I think I need to digest it some more before I can summon a review with enough depth, but about 80% of the disappointment is linked to the fact that we are now too accustomed to the mythology and the universe, to the point where it works to the detriment of this movie and any future sequels. We have seen face-huggers before. We are familiar with the concept of an android with an agenda of his own. We have endured the claustrophobic atmosphere in Scott's original and - to a certain extent - in Cameron's and Fincher's sequels. Any rehash of these elements is utterly pointless. So it all comes down to the quality of your story, which fell well short of acceptable in "Prometheus".
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PostSubject: Re: The ALIEN Series / Prometheus (2012)   Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:01 pm

Largo's Shark wrote:
The only one he liked was BATTLE FOR HADITHA, but that was a documentary.

Faux-doco. It's a narrative.
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PostSubject: Re: The ALIEN Series / Prometheus (2012)   Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:15 pm

Never got around to seeing this.

Maybe I'll pick it up in the bargain bin some day.
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