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 Sony leaks reveal wants for Idris for next Bond

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The Name's Elba, Idris Elba -for Bond
Yes
30%
 30% [ 8 ]
No
67%
 67% [ 18 ]
Indifferent
3%
 3% [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 27
 

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Gravity's Silhouette
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PostSubject: Re: Sony leaks reveal wants for Idris for next Bond   Sun Dec 28, 2014 1:06 pm

Prisoner Monkeys wrote:
I don't think Elba being hired would be symptomatic of political correctness. He's a good actor, at a time when the Bond franchise is attracting serious talent. If EON held open auditions for the role of Bond tomorrow, then I imagine that Elba would make the shortlist pretty quickly.

If Elba is the best man for the job, then he's the best man for the job. Look at Daniel Craig - he bears little physical resemblance to  Fleming's Bond, but he's the most convincing actor since Sean Connery because he can be James Bond. On the other hand, Pierce Brosnan probably looks the most like Fleming's Bond, but the community opinion is that he's a weak performer.

In a perfect world, we would all like an actor who looks like Fleming's Bond and acts like Fleming's Bond. But if we were forced to choose between the two, which one would we prefer? I'm sure 99% of people would want an actor who can act like Fleming's Bond. And so long as Elba falls into that category, his physical resemblance to the character does not and should not matter.

I'm curious to know what the tipping point would be for some of you who support the idea of Elba as Bond. Is there anything the series could do that would make you say: "That's not Bond. I'm done. I quit."

What if they decide to cast a woman as James Bond? She could have a man's first name such as "James", the 007 designation....is it still Bond anymore?

What if they decide to cast a Bond Guy in a future film? Instead of the usual 2 girls per film, Bond has a romantic encounter with a woman AND a man? Is it still Bond anymore?

At what point does the series get so far removed from what Fleming wrote that it ceases to be taken seriously? Moonraker?

You know, I'm really sick of the series right now as it is. SKYFALL brought me back in, but if it had turned out to be another CR or QOS, I probably would've walked away for good. I've got other things I can use my limited free time doing. I was tired of having a BINO (Bond-In-Name-Only) film come out with the gunbarrel tacked on at the end, and no Moneypenny and no Q. Tired of having Bond films where Bond serves as the emotional punching bag for all the women in his life to tell him what a pathetic loser he is, and then either dump him or kill themselves. Yeah, it's technically Bond, but it sure as heck didn't' feel like Bond films. So, from my point of view, I'm only one or two horribly bad decisions away from leaving the series, and it sound as if SPECTRE has made a ton of them, so I may be gone before Elba could ever get hired in the first place.

The notion that Elba can play Bond because he is British and is therefore at least as qualified as any other British actor to audition for the role  is patently false. Yes, there are, I'm sure, a few black Scottish people around, but 99.999% of the world doesn't conjure up the image of Idris Elba when they think of a Scottish person, in much the same way that 99.999% of the population never thinks of Charlize Theron when asked to mentally conjure up an image of an African-American, even though she was born in Africa and moved to America, making her African-American in every sense of the term.

We live in a Western world where we are increasingly being told to "avoid labels" (except for when the U.S. federal government wants to increase the amount of information manufacturers are forced to put on their products); that gender identity and race are just "constructs". We are supposed to avoid stereotyping or prejudging any one or any thing, therefore nothing can be allowed to mean anything. Everything must be open to individual interpretation, which is how some people have found an intellectual pathway to reconcile Idris Elba being 007. Identity is now a relative term; it's not absolute. Bond's identity is now relative and much more open to interpretation than ever before.

I could come up with probably a good, solid 20 reasons why EON should not go down this path of hiring a black B***, but could only come up with one good reason why Elba should be hired, which means hiring him is a terrible idea. And *IF* the racial identity of 007 needed updating, why a black actor? Why not an Asian actor? A Latino actor? Casting a black actor in a leading role in a major franchise is passe. Been there, done that.


Prisoner Monkeys wrote:


The real resistance is going to come from American audiences, as the United States is a major market - but how many Hollywood films feature African-American or Afro-Caribbean actors in lead roles? Will Smith, Jamie Foxx and Halle Berry are the only three actors that I can think of who can regularly do it in a variety of genres (you'll get some like Tyler Perry, but he's limited to a niche genre). Even Morgan Freeman is limited to supporting roles. Bond being a British production will help, since it gives them access to actors like Elba and Chewitel Ejiofor, but it's still a major barrier.

How many Nigerian films feature Caucasian-American actors? Black Americans are 12% of the population, and they are just about represented proportionately on screen. Why does the burden fall on the American entertainment industry to represent Afro-Caribben actors? Why don't the film industries in the Caribbean and in Africa make their own films, with their own people? Then they can have total control over the creative process and won't have to worry about outsiders not writing authentic characters.

Entertainment is a business; it's not a self-esteem workshop.

Morgan Freeman doesn't get "leading-man" roles because he's old and not good looking.

Of the 100,000 people in Los Angeles waiting tables and prostituting while waiting for a "call-back" or a "big break", only a handful will ever reach the top of their profession. Within that tiny percentage of people who will find success, an even smaller percentage will be black or Asian or Latino. If they don't like their odds, they are free to emigrate to Latin America, or Africa, or Asia, and seek film and television work in areas where the odds will favor their being hired.

Denzel, Halle, Will, Tom Hanks, Tom Cruise, Julia Roberts....they're all part of a dying breed: the superstar who once used to command multi-million dollar paychecks, but are increasingly being pushed off the screen in exchange for CGI dinosaurs, CGI hobbits, and pre-sold material like The Avengers or Harry Pooter, who only need an actor/actress that looks like the character, not an actual star to play them. The movie star no longer exists. In a world where Kim Kardashian is a household name, you no longer need talent to get noticed or make money. These actors and actresses are being replaced by robots, dinosaurs, costumed characters, and "reality" show stars like "The Real Housewives of South Central L.A." or "Kim and Khloe Give Manhattan Syphilis". White actors and actresses who trained to learn their craft will be affected by this shi(f)t in consumer taste, which means black actors and actresses could possibly be even more disproportionately affected. To that I say: go get a real job.

Bond's British production gave them access to Chewitel Ejiofor and they still didn't hire him. Why? Ejiofor's people probably want us to believe it's because his asking price was too much (as opposed to two-time Oscar winner Christopher Waltz, who probably asked only for bus fare), but I think someone at SONY finally said that the constant need for recasting familiar roles with black actors (Moneypenny, Leiter) needed to stop with the casting of Blofeld. But I digress. What part of the American audience do you think will offer "resistance"? Just the white audience? Or will black audiences also reject a black B***? Are we only going to focus on the racism of white audiences who don't want to see a black B***, or will we also call out black audiences who don't think Bond should be black, and therefore won't support it? The lack of support for an Idris Elba B*** film goes both ways.
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PostSubject: Re: Sony leaks reveal wants for Idris for next Bond   Sun Dec 28, 2014 1:41 pm

Gravity's Silhouette wrote:
At what point does the series get so far removed from what Fleming wrote that it ceases to be taken seriously?
I don't know. I haven't drawn a line in the sand because I feel that that would be committing to something that I am not in a position to judge. I cannot emphatically say that Elba would make for a bad Bond because I haven't seen him in the role. There are some actors out there that I think would make for such a terrible Bond that saying as much is a mere formality; Sam Worthington, for example. But from what I have seen of Elba in "Luther" and Prometheus and a few others, I think he's good enough that I would be willing to defer judgement of his performance until I had actually seen it.

But if I had to draw that line in the sand, I would have to say that the producers will probably take things too far before you stop making straw man arguments. You might have a point about Lady Bond and Gay Bond, but a) neither have ever been considered, much less seriously, and b) you haven't refuted anything about the merits of Black Bond; instead, you have simply tried - and failed - to associate skin colour as a major deviation from Fleming's character in the same way that changing his gender or his sexual orientation would be. The problem is that this is based on your understanding of who Bond is, and you have made the assumption that everyone shares that understanding.
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PostSubject: Re: Sony leaks reveal wants for Idris for next Bond   Sun Dec 28, 2014 2:13 pm

Prisoner Monkeys wrote:


But if I had to draw that line in the sand, I would have to say that the producers will probably take things too far before you stop making straw man arguments. You might have a point about Lady Bond and Gay Bond, but a) neither have ever been considered, much less seriously, and b) you haven't refuted anything about the merits of Black Bond;


And you haven't refuted anecdotal evidence provided by Denzel Washington, Spike Lee, and Will Smith that I've linked to that states black women get offended when seeing a black man on the screen in a romance scene with anyone but another black woman. How do you plan to address those concerns? They may be "straw arguments" to you, but in 10 or 20 years they could be reality. If you and I were having a discussion about a black B*** 20 or 30 years ago, you'd be calling it a "straw argument" back then, but here we are now discussing the contents of the head of SONY's email to Babs "Coltrane" Broccoli, agreeing with her that Elba could be the next Bond. So, what's one man's "straw argument" is another man's eventual reality.

And don't think for one minute someone at EON or SONY hasn't considered dropping a same-sex love scene into the series; they've already dropped the first hint with SKYFALL.

Quote :
instead, you have simply tried - and failed - to associate skin colour as a major deviation from Fleming's character in the same way that changing his gender or his sexual orientation would be. The problem is that this is based on your understanding of who Bond is, and you have made the assumption that everyone shares that understanding.

huh

52 years of making that false "assumption". I'm willing to bet on my assumption that the world sees Bond the way I do over your assumption that they do not.

This could EASILY be resolved by simply making a spin-off series with Idris Elba (which I'm not opposed to and would support); everybody would win, but again, that's the easy path. That's also the path with the least amount of controversial social change, which is what this is really about (as you've said so yourself, you want to see how the world reacts to a black B***). After all, the point is to change Bond; he's the ultimate symbol of the patriarchal, sexist, misogynistic, imperialistic, homophobic Western male and HE is the object that must be changed, not the world around him. Rather than bring in an original Elba-00-agent character into the MI6 universe, we'll simply alter who 007 is.

You see, I've been on this spin-off bandwagon for 17 years. I was for it when Wai Lin was being considered, I was for it when Jinx Johnson was being considered (I was a huge proponent on my website for hiring Halle Berry as a Bond Girl and would like to think that my advocacy on her behalf for 2 years led to her being cast) and I'm for it if you want to create stand-alone stories for Q, Leiter (different actor, though), or other 00-agents. What I'm not for is changing who 007 is. The character of Bond is sacrosanct. Many of us have put up with liberal changes to other characters and situations over the years; making Bond a black man would be a line that, if crossed, there would be no going back.

And if for nothing else, if EON can't agree with me on those issues, then the financial considerations should do the trick. Do they want to lose money? Irreparably lose an audience? And for what? To see if the world is a more tolerant, open place for people of color? If you need Bond to answer those sorts of questions then you haven't been watching the news. Casting Elba (or any non-white actor) as Bond will be nothing more than a publicity stunt for EON, but it will backfire badly.

I'm sure Paschal's people dug through the leaked emails to find the one where she supports Elba as Bond; she told them where to find it. It helps rehabilitate her image and takes the focus off her and puts it on Hush Limbaugh. That' probably why we're actually finding out about this email; one of her flacks probably told the hackers or the media where to locate it in the document dump. But make no mistake about it. If she or Babs were to go through with such a thing, they'd lose their audience....forever.
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PostSubject: Re: Sony leaks reveal wants for Idris for next Bond   Sun Dec 28, 2014 6:03 pm

Gravity's Silhouette wrote:
And you haven't refuted anecdotal evidence provided by Denzel Washington, Spike Lee, and Will Smith that I've linked to that states black women get offended when seeing a black man on the screen in a romance scene with anyone but another black woman.

I don't get your concern over something like this.

Quote :
here we are now discussing the contents of the head of SONY's email to Babs "Coltrane" Broccoli, agreeing with her that Elba could be the next Bond. So, what's one man's "straw argument" is another man's eventual reality.

Amy Pascal was e-mailing with Elizabeth Cantillon, not Broccoli.
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PostSubject: Re: Sony leaks reveal wants for Idris for next Bond   Sun Dec 28, 2014 6:23 pm

Makeshift Python wrote:
Gravity's Silhouette wrote:
And you haven't refuted anecdotal evidence provided by Denzel Washington, Spike Lee, and Will Smith that I've linked to that states black women get offended when seeing a black man on the screen in a romance scene with anyone but another black woman.

I don't get your concern over something like this.

Because it goes back to what I said earlier: it will polarize all segments of the audience or potential audience. Hear me now and believe me later. Fact #1 There will have to be an increase in black women as Bond Girls to offset the inevitable criticism that a black B*** with only white or European actresses is being insensitive to women of color, but it won't stop the criticism. Fact #2 By percentages, the more you add a black cast member to a film, there is a proportionate reaction of disinterest among white audiences because subconsciously they assume it's not a film made for them. I'm guilty of that myself. #3 There will be left-leaning criticism that an Elba B*** will be written like all the other white actors who came before him, thereby not bringing Elba's unique qualities and diversity to the story, and instead he'll come off as just another "white" character that urban audiences can't relate to. They won't give a rat's arse about Elba as Bond and won't support it, and the audience that the series had before will lose 25-30% of it's fanbase just because they wanted to do some social engineering.

I'm reading similar sentiments on other forums, right down to suggesting that Elba get his own series of MI6 movies, but not as Bond. Now, if it's so easy that lay people such as myself can see this, why hasn't SONY acted on it?
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PostSubject: Re: Sony leaks reveal wants for Idris for next Bond   Sun Dec 28, 2014 6:27 pm

Hmm, I wonder why they didn't cast Daniel Craig as Mandela...
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PostSubject: Re: Sony leaks reveal wants for Idris for next Bond   Sun Dec 28, 2014 6:32 pm

FieldsMan wrote:
Hmm, I wonder why they didn't cast Daniel Craig as Mandela...

The argument being thrown around is...Mandela is a real person, while Bond is fiction. Even though Bond has never been anything but white in fiction.

So after Idris Elba plays Bond, one of those Bollywood stars will be next, then a Korean, and MI6 will be replaced by the United Colors of Benetton.

But don't give up on Craig yet...he might be cast in the new Luther movie as John Luther.
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PostSubject: Re: Sony leaks reveal wants for Idris for next Bond   Sun Dec 28, 2014 7:10 pm

bitchcraft wrote:
FieldsMan wrote:
Hmm, I wonder why they didn't cast Daniel Craig as Mandela...

The argument being thrown around is...Mandela is a real person, while Bond is fiction. Even though Bond has never been anything but white in fiction.

So after Idris Elba plays Bond, one of those Bollywood stars will be next, then a Korean, and MI6 will be replaced by the United Colors of Benetton.

But don't give up on Craig yet...he might be cast in the new Luther movie as John Luther.

But you don't even have to offer up that defense.

Point #1 The name James Bond came from an ornithologist, so in the most technical sense he did exist.

Point #2 The actual genesis of the idea for Bond came loosely from many of Fleming's own WW2 experiences. Bond may ultimately be fiction, but the man that wrote them was very much real, and Bond was an extension of Fleming's psyche.

If color doesn't matter, Daniel Craig should be welcomed with open arms when he takes on the role of John Stewart/ Green Lanten in JUSTICE LEAGUE, Kellan Lutz as Luke Cage, Robert Pattinson as Black Panther, and Charlize Theron as Storm.
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PostSubject: Re: Sony leaks reveal wants for Idris for next Bond   Sun Dec 28, 2014 7:12 pm

People will bitch about something no matter what. If EON should be so concerned over the reactions casting a black man would spark, they would have immediately dumped Craig just because the media trashed his casting. They didn't, they stuck with him and the rest is history.
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PostSubject: Re: Sony leaks reveal wants for Idris for next Bond   Sun Dec 28, 2014 7:54 pm

Makeshift Python wrote:
People will bitch about something no matter what. If EON should be so concerned over the reactions casting a black man would spark, they would have immediately dumped Craig just because the media trashed his casting. They didn't, they stuck with him and the rest is history.

If I'd been alive back in '71 I would have been vehemently against the hiring of Burt Reynolds and/or John Gavin; Bond should stay British (thus clearly making me anti-American). But at this point of the discussion I assume you are going to tell me that Bond's nationality shouldn't matter either, as long as the actor plays Bond with the same brooding intensity that Fleming wrote for him.
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PostSubject: Re: Sony leaks reveal wants for Idris for next Bond   Sun Dec 28, 2014 7:58 pm

I'd say Idris Elba is much more suitable for Bond than either Reynolds or Gavin.
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PostSubject: Re: Sony leaks reveal wants for Idris for next Bond   Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:24 pm

Gravity's Silhouette wrote:
But at this point of the discussion I assume you are going to tell me that Bond's nationality shouldn't matter either, as long as the actor plays Bond with the same brooding intensity that Fleming wrote for him.
When FOX was casting for "House MD", they got a lot of British actors auditioning for the part - and they got fed up with them, to the point where they could pick a British actor feigning an accent almost immediately. When they came to Hugh Laurie's tape, they were mesmerised to the point where they were convinced that he was American. So if a British actor can convince an American audience that he is American, I can see no reason why an American actor can convince a British audience that he is British.
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PostSubject: Re: Sony leaks reveal wants for Idris for next Bond   Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:58 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Sony leaks reveal wants for Idris for next Bond   Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:02 pm

Control wrote:
Throw the Fleming argument out the window.

Only three or four of the films have resembled Fleming's work. Only two actors have resembled Fleming's character. I'm being generous, too.

I'd be more disturbed by Bond not being able to light up a cigarette, rather than a black man being suggested to play Bond.

I thought Ian Fleming didn't quite approve of Connery originally either?

So wouldn't that just leave Dalton?
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PostSubject: Re: Sony leaks reveal wants for Idris for next Bond   Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:03 pm

Gravity's Silhouette wrote:

At what point does the series get so far removed from what Fleming wrote that it ceases to be taken seriously?

That ship sailed so long ago that it's now far beyond the horizon.
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PostSubject: Re: Sony leaks reveal wants for Idris for next Bond   Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:09 pm





Here's a pro-Idris argument: he'd be the first Bond since young Connery I'd personally deem to be genuinely sexy.
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PostSubject: Re: Sony leaks reveal wants for Idris for next Bond   Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:38 pm

Plus Elba has my beard. At first I was annoyed, but now I'm flattered.
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PostSubject: Re: Sony leaks reveal wants for Idris for next Bond   Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:47 pm

CJB wrote:
Hasn't it been established that EON's Bond (Reboot Bond included) is of Scottish and Swiss-German parentage?

I mean in Skyfall we saw that Bond's family has an estate in Scotland passed down through the centuries. Is it really racist to say that William Wallace probably didn't know any Ghanians?


I think that was Fleming himself really, not EON. But they can pretty much do whatever they want. Bond is selling like mad, they must be doing something right, no? Lol, perhaps they just try to give some fans an aneurysm? To get rid of theirworst critics?

Makeshift Python wrote:
I'd say Idris Elba is much more suitable for Bond than either Reynolds or Gavin.

Was this Reynolds really in the run? Never heard about that before , strange idea.
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PostSubject: Re: Sony leaks reveal wants for Idris for next Bond   Sun Dec 28, 2014 11:30 pm

Control wrote:
Throw the Fleming argument out the window.

Only three or four of the films have resembled Fleming's work. Only two actors have resembled Fleming's character. I'm being generous, too.

I'd be more disturbed by Bond not being able to light up a cigarette, rather than a black man being suggested to play Bond.

One of the things Mendes said about directing Bond was that it was weird that he could pretty much have him gun down 500 people if he wanted, but having him light up was an absolute no-no.
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PostSubject: Re: Sony leaks reveal wants for Idris for next Bond   Mon Dec 29, 2014 2:55 am

This thread needed a poll.

Although it seems the pro-Elba sentiment is greater than those opposed to it, which I find genuinely alarming.

Anyway, that's my last .02 on this.
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PostSubject: Re: Sony leaks reveal wants for Idris for next Bond   Mon Dec 29, 2014 3:11 am

bitchcraft wrote:
This thread needed a poll.

Although it seems the pro-Elba sentiment is greater than those opposed to it, which I find genuinely alarming.

Anyway, that's my last .02 on this.

The majority for Elba?m I thought the majority was against him? Yes, poll is a great idea, make one.
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PostSubject: Re: Sony leaks reveal wants for Idris for next Bond   Mon Dec 29, 2014 5:52 am

A poll has been added.
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PostSubject: Re: Sony leaks reveal wants for Idris for next Bond   Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:03 am

Prisoner Monkeys wrote:
Gravity's Silhouette wrote:
But at this point of the discussion I assume you are going to tell me that Bond's nationality shouldn't matter either, as long as the actor plays Bond with the same brooding intensity that Fleming wrote for him.
When FOX was casting for "House MD", they got a lot of British actors auditioning for the part - and they got fed up with them, to the point where they could pick a British actor feigning an accent almost immediately. When they came to Hugh Laurie's tape, they were mesmerised to the point where they were convinced that he was American. So if a British actor can convince an American audience that he is American, I can see no reason why an American actor can convince a British audience that he is British.

Was that what EON was trying to do? I always assumed EON was going to make the character American, kind of like the 1954 CBS version of CASINO ROYALE.
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PostSubject: Re: Sony leaks reveal wants for Idris for next Bond   Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:08 am

Movie Bond and Fleming Bond have departed somewhat over the years, particularly when the CR reboot gave him a newer timeline, and not an upper-class, white Etonian background which belonged in a different era.

However, there has also been a conscious effort to bring back as much of the old Fleming Bond characteristics and flavour from the books, and update it to modern times. This has been easier to do with modernising characters around Bond (Moneypenny and Felix), without doing too much to Bond himself.

Turning Bond black for the sake of it, whether it is for a political agenda, or some exec at Sony thinks the next Bond actor should be black and not white, or whether there is a black actor out there that has the acting chops, charisma, coolness and ruggedness which beats every other white English actor currently available on the market (highly unlikely), the move will be seen as very controversial across the globe, and cause huge debate which will no doubt end up with pissed off fans being called racist, and is a totally unnecessary thing to do the franchise. Why would you change his colour just because you can? Look what this subject does to Bond forums every time it is brought up? Think what it will do on a larger scale if it actually happened. It would open up all sorts of debates, and would always eventually end up branding someone racist.

I personally don't want to see Bond black, because I am a Fleming purist, and I want to see as much of Fleming's original creation on screen as possible, even in today's modern era of James Bond. Dalton probably came closest to it, but to me Craig still embodies the essence of Fleming's old-fashioned 50's creation, even if a black actor could also have played Bond in CR, QoS and SF.

Bond was born from a different era, and although the movies have modernised Bond to an extent (fringe characters now being black, Bond no longer smoking, etc.) the character himself has never departed too much from Fleming's original 50's creation, but changing his ethnic background will be a big departure from the original Fleming Bond, like it or not.

Hiring a black actor, and suddenly you find his character would not work in many of the Fleming scenes, and for the majority of the LALD book. Seriously, if you had Elba in the role and you wanted to do a faithful adaptation of LALD, you couldn't - and yet this is an essential story in the background of who Bond is.

Do you think a Nazi-loving villain like Goldfinger would want to play golf with a black man? Yes, I know that was then, and this is now, but Bond's whiteness and Britishness is part of his character, the same way Shaft being black is part of his character, and we wouldn't want a white actor to play Shaft.....would we?

If this type of casting ever happened, I too would be finished with the series. Over and out!



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PostSubject: Re: Sony leaks reveal wants for Idris for next Bond   Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:54 am

jet set willy wrote:


Hiring a black actor, and suddenly you find his character would not work in many of the Fleming scenes, and for the majority of the LALD book. Seriously, if you had Elba in the role and you wanted to do a faithful adaptation of LALD, you couldn't - and yet this is an essential story in the background of who Bond is.

Do you think a Nazi-loving villain like Goldfinger would want to play golf with a black man? Yes, I know that was then, and this is now, but Bond's whiteness and Britishness is part of his character, the same way Shaft being black is part of his character, and we wouldn't want a white actor to play him.....would we?

Yay, thanks for the poll.

I don't buy that LALD thing, that's not the typical Bond adventure peeps think of when you ask them. Goldfinger is a much better standard forBond in terms of what most people would think of. But was Goldfinger Nazi-loving? I thought he was a Commie agent, Smersh or China? Would that guy be happy to play golf with a London playboy? I'd say Goldfinger would still work with a black Bond.
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