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 Russian savagery in Europe.

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Erica Ambler
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PostSubject: Russian savagery in Europe.   Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:39 am

Russian savagery in Europe 2015 with the active participation of the Putin media. Anyone here give a fuck?



Quote :
Vladimir Putin has dangerous ambitions beyond Ukraine and aims to test Western resolve in the Baltic states, the former head of Nato has warned.

Anders Fogh Rasmussen, the former secretary-general of the Atlantic alliance, said the Kremlin’s true goal is to shatter Nato solidarity and reassert Russian dominance over Eastern Europe.

“This is not about Ukraine. Putin wants to restore Russia to its former position as a great power. There is a high probability that he will intervene in the Baltics to test Nato’s Article 5,” he said, referring to the solidarity clause that underpins collective security.

Mr Rasmussen said the Europeans have slashed military spending so deeply since the financial crisis that they can barely defend themselves without American help. “The situation is critical. We have a lot of soldiers but we can't move them,” he said.

"Nato countries have cut defence spending by 20pc in real terms over the last five years – and some by 40pc - while Russia has increased by 80pc. The aggression in Ukraine is a wake-up call," he said.

“We learned in the Libyan crisis that Europe is totally reliant on the Americans for air-refueling, drones, and communications intelligence. We don’t have air transport. It is really bad.”

Belgium is the most extreme case. It spends 96pc of defence budget on salaries, retirement, and its Burgundian canteens. The share spent on military kit has been slashed to 4pc. “Military confidence is nearing the point of collapse," said Alexander Mattelear from the Vrije Universtiteit in Brussels.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11393707/Putin-could-attack-Baltic-states-warns-former-Nato-chief.html
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Hilly KCMG
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PostSubject: Re: Russian savagery in Europe.   Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:07 am

It's almost a Czechoslovakia moment. If he goes in somewhere that is a NATO country which means in effect all NATO has to weigh in, will we? Or do we stand aside and let him march in?

Cold War-era bombers flying hither and thither around the UK, apparently a danger to civil airliners never mind anything else, the Sweden submarine incident, and everything else, capped off by the story yesterday of Ukraine's troops having to retreat under fire.

I think of Clarkson's joke on HIGNFY about the story about sending Eurofighters to Lithuania a few months back, "What all of them!?" and hearing about two Eurofighters being dispatched every time to ward off the Bears and thinking: Got to be the same two.

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Salomé
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PostSubject: Re: Russian savagery in Europe.   Sat Feb 21, 2015 3:12 am

The military is hardly the only sector which has felt the effects of forced budget cuts.

Blame the financial sectors unchecked irresponsibility.
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PostSubject: Re: Russian savagery in Europe.   Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:05 am

Whoever or whatever is to blame on our end the Russians are treating the British like shit like the complete set of bastards they (the Russians) truly are. kaboom

Also, a great excuse to roll in the European Army of EU Member States and further neuter Britain's military power.


Last edited by Staugust on Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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Erica Ambler
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PostSubject: Re: Russian savagery in Europe.   Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:13 am

Salomé wrote:
Blame the financial sectors unchecked irresponsibility.  

Blame the Clinton administration and its promotion of ‘affordable’ housing for the poor. That led directly to the development of subprime mortgages.

No bank left to its own devices lends to customers that can't - and won't - repay. Big government strikes again. Always the culprit, but never suspected.

Too early for a definitive history, but this is a pretty good account:

Quote :
The Clinton-Era Roots of the Financial Crisis
Affordable-housing goals established in the 1990s led to a massive increase in risky, subprime mortgages.
By PHIL GRAMM AND MIKE SOLON
Aug. 12, 2013

Simply put, the financial crisis of 2008 was caused by a lot of banks making a lot of loans to a lot of people who either could not or would not pay the money back. But this explanation raises two key questions. Why did private lenders, whose job it was to assess credit risk, make those loans? And why did the army of financial regulators, with massive enforcement powers, allow 28 million high-risk loans to be made?

There's a strong case that the answers can be traced to Sept. 12, 1992. On that day presidential candidate Bill Clinton proposed, in his campaign book "Putting People First," using private pension funds to "invest" in government priorities, such as affordable housing, to "generate long-term, broad based economic benefits." Seldom has such a radical proposal been so ignored during a campaign only to later lead to such devastating consequences.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887323477604579000571334113350
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Prisoner Monkeys
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PostSubject: Re: Russian savagery in Europe.   Sat Feb 21, 2015 8:02 am

Staugust wrote:
Whoever or whatever is to blame on our end the Russians are treating the British like shit like the complete set of bastards they (the Russians) truly are.
Yes, poor old Britain. Never mind Ukraine and the Russian support of separatists. Never mind the victims of and the families affected by MH17, which was likely shot down by a Russian-supplied missile battery, and the perpetrators are probably being sheltered by Russia. Never mind the Baltic states who are concerned that Russia might decide to take control of their territory. Never mind the smaller countries like Moldova, whose economies are subject to unfair and crippling sanctions from Moscow as a means to keep them in line. Never mind any of that - the real victim here is Britain.
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CJB
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PostSubject: Re: Russian savagery in Europe.   Sat Feb 21, 2015 8:56 am

Prisoner Monkeys wrote:
Never mind the victims of and the families affected by MH17, which was likely shot down by a Russian-supplied missile battery, and the perpetrators are probably being sheltered by Russia.

Prisoner Monkeys wrote:
This is the government that accused the president of a nuclear-armed sovereign state of actively participating in a terrorist attack on foreign soil without any evidence with one breath, and then with the next breath called for a full and impartial investigation into MH17.

Someone's changed their tune.
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Prisoner Monkeys
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PostSubject: Re: Russian savagery in Europe.   Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:04 am

Not at all. I believe Russia is at least partially responsible, but I am not an elected representative of this country. It's one thing for an everyday citizen to hold those beliefs. It's another thing entirely for the leader of a country to make that accusation without a shred of evidence and then call for an impartial investigation.
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CJB
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PostSubject: Re: Russian savagery in Europe.   Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:05 am

Russia is economically cooked and the idea that Putin is planning to invade and annex the Baltic states (NATO members as has been noted) is fanciful. I recall a lot of people thought Russia was going to annex all of Georgia in 2008. The Crimean peninsula has strategic significance for Russia, Lithuania does not.

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PostSubject: Re: Russian savagery in Europe.   Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:09 am

Prisoner Monkeys wrote:
Not at all. I believe Russia is at least partially responsible, but I am not an elected representative of this country. It's one thing for an everyday citizen to hold those beliefs. It's another thing entirely for the leader of a country to make that accusation without a shred of evidence and then call for an impartial investigation.

Yeah, that's retarded.

So everyone in the world knows the Russian-armed militants did it but the only person on Earth who's not allowed to say it is the Prime Minister of Australia?

Presumably you have the same criticism of the leaders of the US, Canada, and Europe? Pretty sure we didn't hear a "Gee whiz, who knows who armed those rebels?" from them either. Those sanctions weren't applied to Russia by accident.
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Prisoner Monkeys
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PostSubject: Re: Russian savagery in Europe.   Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:26 am

CJB wrote:
So everyone in the world knows the Russian-armed militants did it but the only person on Earth who's not allowed to say it is the Prime Minister of Australia?
How do we know it? We have no evidence. And even then, how guilty are they? To hear Abbott tell it, Putin was the one who pushed the big red button marked FIRE, but nobody knows for certain as to what model of missile battery was used. How do you know that Russia didn't simply provide the launcher so that the rebels could target military flights, and then left them to their own devices?

Quote :
Presumably you have the same criticism of the leaders of the US, Canada, and Europe? Pretty sure we didn't hear a "Gee whiz, who knows who armed those rebels?" from them either. Those sanctions weren't applied to Russia by accident.
I'm willing to believe that those countries have intelligence sources in a position to confirm it. MH17 went down shortly before 1:00am AEST. At 7:00am, we had only just received confirmation that the plane had gone down. Abbott addressed parliament before 10:00, in which he accused Russia of being responsible. So how was he in a position to know that Russia was responsible within hours of the plane going down and nearly a full day before other major leaders commented? Or do you honestly believe that Australia had better-quality sources in the region at the time who were able to confirm Russia's involvement, but then didn't share that information with other agencies?

Those sanctions weren't applied by accident, but nor were they applied immediately. Look at the Russian response to the accusations from around the world - why do you think they singled us out? They condemned us for making an accusation based on mere speculation and conjecture. The general opinion in Europe is that Abbott went too far and that he should have waited. They already think that he's completely incompetent.
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Erica Ambler
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PostSubject: Re: Russian savagery in Europe.   Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:28 am

Australia. Centre of the universe.
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CJB
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PostSubject: Re: Russian savagery in Europe.   Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:42 am

On the day of the downing there was audio of pro-Russian rebels conversing about the civilian airliner they had just shot down. The Australian Government had all the same intelligence as other Western nations. Yet so hateful of Abbott you are, Prisoner, you would condemn him for taking a strong line against the murder of Australian citizens. If he had equivocated and um'd and ah'd you would condemn him just the same.

Quote :
The general opinion in Europe is that Abbott went too far and that he should have waited.

No it isn't. Ask the Dutch prime minister or the Ukrainian president. The only European country that thought Abbott went too far was Mother Russia.
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CJB
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PostSubject: Re: Russian savagery in Europe.   Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:44 am

Erica Ambler wrote:
Australia. Centre of the universe.

PM and I make up about one-third of the forum's active members, so naturally this means there will be a disproportionate number of Oz references.
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Erica Ambler
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PostSubject: Re: Russian savagery in Europe.   Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:54 am

CJB wrote:
Erica Ambler wrote:
Australia. Centre of the universe.

PM and I make up about one-third of the forum's active members, so naturally this means there will be a disproportionate number of Oz references.

Did not mean to slight, Commander, do carry on. Since Sharky died and Baker St closed, you and Hilly are the only life left in this place.
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CJB
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PostSubject: Re: Russian savagery in Europe.   Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:57 am

No worries.

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Hilly KCMG
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PostSubject: Re: Russian savagery in Europe.   Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:58 am

if I'm an indicator of life in this place, more than Ukraine's stuffed.
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PostSubject: Re: Russian savagery in Europe.   Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:02 am

Is it true that Helga is doing the rounds as a pin-up girl on the frontlines?
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Prisoner Monkeys
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PostSubject: Re: Russian savagery in Europe.   Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:58 am

CJB wrote:
PM and I make up about one-third of the forum's active members, so naturally this means there will be a disproportionate number of Oz references.
Plus, it's a Saturday morning here, which makes it a Friday night in Europe.
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PostSubject: Re: Russian savagery in Europe.   Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:30 pm

Erica Ambler wrote:
Since Sharky died.

Oi oi. I'm still here, barely...

Will promise to make more of an effort.
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PostSubject: Re: Russian savagery in Europe.   Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:46 pm

Out of curiosity: since the EU is such a big bad evil satan set on cutting off Britain's glorious, powerful, virile Big Ba**s of platinum-plated Steel and Putin out to save his Russians from the EU's grubby fingers, (Ukraine included) should not the ordinary Ukipper applaud his efforts? Hey, how about a non-aggression pact and a little reshaping of Europe, strikes me the Sun would love it?
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PostSubject: Re: Russian savagery in Europe.   Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:33 am

Erica Ambler wrote:
Salomé wrote:
Blame the financial sectors unchecked irresponsibility.  

Blame the Clinton administration and its promotion of ‘affordable’ housing for the poor. That led directly to the development of subprime mortgages.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887323477604579000571334113350

My more general point was - if we are talking about Belgium - that the military was hardly the only department that saw its budget significantly reduced.
Tax benefits for home owners were roughly slashed in half. Across Belgium, the culture budget was cut by 17% (there are regional differences between Flanders, Wallonia and Brussels).
They even cut things that will likely have a minimal effect at best on the budget, like free bus passes for retirees.
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PostSubject: Re: Russian savagery in Europe.   Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:58 pm

Campbell4 wrote:
Out of curiosity: since the EU is such a big bad evil satan set on cutting off Britain's glorious, powerful, virile Big Ba**s of platinum-plated Steel and Putin out to save his Russians from the EU's grubby fingers, (Ukraine included) should not the ordinary Ukipper applaud his efforts? Hey, how about a non-aggression pact and a little reshaping of Europe, strikes me the Sun would love it?

Anyone not slavishly fond of a German-dominated political union is a Nazi.

Gotcha.
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PostSubject: Re: Russian savagery in Europe.   Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:04 am

LOL! Exactly, that's what I meant to say, thanks for being my interpreter! :D

Seriously, good call on the German scare, nreve fails to work with the right kind of f**l. Everybody knows they are out to start a war, yes? LOL, great show! Tell you the truth, last time I looked it was Britain and the Bush junta trying to pull them into that splendid adventure in Iraq though didn't get why, they have no army to speak of, must have been the part in Abu Ghraib we had written for them. I bet the howling would have gone up to 11 from America if the water sports in Guantanamo had been played by a team of vile Germans, we could all feel so much better then?Anyway, they didn't play ball, didn't fall for jingoist bu**shi**ers but remained levelheaded. ever since I hear nothing like how the evil Germans are trying to oppress us With their EU, really scary stuff. Mustn't trust them, let's draw them with long beaks, would suit the vibes, no?What I mean, this must be hard times for the average Farage-drone. Should they hope to nuke it out with that Russian who offended them by dismissing Brits? How dare the insolent a**, all the world has to cower in fear of the Mighty Mouse, LOL! Or should they secretly hope Putin blows the hated EU and the Germans with it to ashes? Must be a tough choice, I can see.

Kiddin aside I'm not afraid of a German-dominated political union because that's not going to happen. Otherwise they surely would have been able to prevent the European Central Bank's QE move, no? Looks like they couldn't but don't let get facts in the way of your German scaremongering, love the tune. And even if that was to come, it can hardly be any worse than what calls itself currently politicians in the UK. At least intelligence services are prepared for the worst, being completely clueless about the Crimea but having the entire Berlin communications in their pocket, just in case. Top job, couldn't be better prepared for Merkel's jackboots. :D
Come on, do me the favour call me a bl**dy traitor ;)
Really, in recent years it strikes me some people crossed the line between patriotism and rampant nationalism. Don't know why, perhaps cause they feel so miserable about their own country they need a foreign one to look down onto and blame for their misery instead of gettign their a**es off the couch and start on working their way out of it. I've read so much utter bu**sh*t, some peeps start sounding like Greeks, whiny and pathetic.
As for the kippers, they were the only UK political party to side with the Greek Golden Dawn fascists to vote against an EU motion against tax dodging, food for thought. UKIP's band of MEPs were the laziest in the wholeEU, seldom turning up for debates or votes. Regardless, if the topic was in Britain's national interest. But hey, they are so hip and appeal to the Pavlov reflexes they ought to have a chance at f**king things up properly. Thanks, I'll pass on that.
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Erica Ambler
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PostSubject: Re: Russian savagery in Europe.   Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:59 am

Campbell4 wrote:
Everybody knows [Germany] are out to start a war, yes?

Certainly the reason for the creation of the EU was to contain German expansionism. Three devastating wars fought in France by Germany in 70 years explains why:

1870 Franco–Prussian War
1914 First World War
1939 Second World War

Campbell4 wrote:
ever since I hear nothing like how the evil Germans are trying to oppress us [snip] must be hard times for the average Farage-drone.

Farage is married to a German, and suggesting that British citizens should decide Britain’s future is democracy not fascism or racism.

Campbell4 wrote:
I'm not afraid of a German-dominated political union because that's not going to happen.

It already has. Even an uneducated man like you should be able to see what just happened in Greece.

Campbell4 wrote:
German scaremongering

The Second World War isn’t the only reason people fear Germany. Some background reading for you:

http://yalepress.yale.edu/book.asp?isbn=9780300107913

And don’t let your own incipient prejudices get in the way of a peer-reviewed book; the authors are Irish not English.

Campbell4 wrote:
Really, in recent years it strikes me some people crossed the line between patriotism and rampant nationalism.

The world calls them Scots.

Campbell4 wrote:
They feel so miserable about their own country they need a foreign one to look down onto and blame for their misery instead of gettign their a**es off the couch and start on working their way out of it.

Like I said, the world calls them Scots.
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