Bond: Is he deep enough?

Are these films deep enough?

Gritty enough?

Dark enough?



What in the heck are you doing, Bond? Starting...


World...


War...


Three?

No, I still feel like we haven't learned how James became Bond. The only way this can happen if there's a film where Bond goes rogue for a personal mission. Also, there needs to be a Bond Woman who is his equal and is different from the previous girls.

Control wrote:

Are these films deep enough?

Gritty enough?

Dark enough?



What in the heck are you doing, Bond? Starting...


World...


War...



Three?

Skyfall is as deep as it should go. From here, just straight missions. He doesn't need to prove himself anymore… We've gone straight from rookie agent to ageing agent who needs to prove himself again. Time for Bond to be Bond in his prime and that's it.

FieldsMan wrote:

Skyfall is as deep as it should go. From here, just straight missions. He doesn't need to prove himself anymore… We've gone straight from rookie agent to ageing agent who needs to prove himself again. Time for Bond to be Bond in his prime and that's it.

That's what everyone wanted after QOS too. I've been avoiding SPECTRE spoilers but, judging from the teaser trailer and whatnot, I can only presume the deep-gritty framework is still in place. That's not to say that it'll be a bad film. Skyfall was good, after all.

That said, I think Fury Road demonstrates that contemporary audiences can love movies that don't take themselves too seriously (replete with practical effects and action pieces). Totally different genre, of course, but it shows that there's still a market for balls-to-the-walls, fun action-adventure films.

Have yet to see Fury Road but intend to while it's still showing at cinemas… I trust Mendes and his team to give us something (quality-wise) like SF, so it's not a big issue for me at the moment, but as soon as SPECTRE's done (and Craig, hopefully), I want a return to the classic formula.

The only thing I want Bond to be deep in is his Bond girls… Poor fella hasn't got anything on the other five (except maybe Dalton).

Only two movies that had a non-pathos story for Bond have been made in the last 30 years, one was A VIEW TO A KILL and the other was TOMORROW NEVER DIES. Like it or not, the direction the series has taken since Dalton by mixing up the mission with some personal stakes is what Mikey and Babs are all in for. Until they retire and let one of their heirs take over, I'm not betting on getting another non-pathos Bond film for a long time. This is what Bond is now.

The Living Daylights was largely free from the this time it's personal stuff. Bond briefly gets pissed off, pops a balloon, and waves his gun at some kid, but that's about it.

Tomorrow Never Dies was solid on this front though. Bond's ex-girlfriend gets killed and this is him three minutes later:

I largely got the vibe in TLD because of Bond and Kara, and of course how Dalton humanizes Bond through his performance. It felt like the most intimate pairing since OHMSS by that point.

I don't really buy TLD being placed in this category, and at the time LTK was a worthwhile exploration of another side of Bond. Dalton had great chemistry with his leads which I do think adds to the invenstment, but the story never relies or labours it.

The Brosnan era started well eschewing from GE to TND with the personal angle adding to the story but never overwhelming it (yes 006 was Bond's friend but take that out and much would remain as is, likewise for the rather pointless Paris Carver subplot).

Twine is the turning point for me, the heavy hands of Purvis and Wade underlining and repeatedly reiterating the personal angle, no matter how anaemic, amid trite unnatural dialogue and melodramatic expostion. A combination that only Mendes has managed to Juggle with any real skill imo.

But even then, TWINE's 'personal' angle isn't Bond's… It's M's, which at that point was something different like LTK's was.

It started off as a personal thing for M, and then evolved into having Bond involved with Elektra, throwing heavy allusions to OHMSS (hell, it's in the title too).

I believe he cares for Elektra (like he did for Tiffany and Honey perhaps in the novels) but never loved her like he did Tracy. Don't think it has that personal angle though, like GE (friendship with Alec), DAD (finding the mole), CR, QOS and SF.

CJB wrote:

Bond briefly gets pissed off, pops a balloon, and waves his gun at some kid

A bit off topic but without context that summary would have been one heck of a way to sell that movie.

But on topic I agree Skyfall is about as far it needs to go with the whole personal mission angle. I know SPECTRE is not going to be a change from "This time it's personal!" thing we've seen so far in the Craig era but I wish we could see a film where Craig's Bond is in top shape and is focused on a mission without a vendetta of some sort.

FieldsMan wrote:

I believe he cares for Elektra (like he did for Tiffany and Honey perhaps in the novels) but never loved her like he did Tracy. Don't think it has that personal angle though, like GE (friendship with Alec), DAD (finding the mole), CR, QOS and SF.

The heavy allusions to OHMSS throughout TWINE really say otherwise. However, I would agree that they didn't succeed at making the relationship between Bond and Elektra work, so the allusions really don't pay off as well as they should have.

Eet eez my oil, though.

Strangways&Quarrel wrote:

I know SPECTRE is not going to be a change from "This time it's personal!" thing we've seen so far in the Craig ...

I wish I was so certain but it still reads very much as regurgitating that same theme albeit with the twist of 'you know that thing you finally got over....well here's new reasons to dredge it all back up....oh and here's a surrogate family member to twist the knife!'.

Modern films renew the notions of a Ptolemaic Universe, but instead of the universe revolving around the Earth it instead revolves around one character and everything relates back or arises out of the one person. I'd love Bond to tackle something in a universe that actually behaved more like ours again one day, "this that and the other has happened the situation is critical, it was nothing to do with you....but you are just the man to go sort it out Bond and that's is after all exactly what the 00's are all about!" By all means become invested in the operation and the people it affects but do that as a natural consequence of involvement and do it alongside the audience don't buy a cheap emo-centric short cut or some ludicrously contrived prior link.

CJB wrote:

Eet eez my oil, though.

"one... lahst... screwwwww.."

Makeshift Python wrote:

FieldsMan wrote:

I believe he cares for Elektra (like he did for Tiffany and Honey perhaps in the novels) but never loved her like he did Tracy. Don't think it has that personal angle though, like GE (friendship with Alec), DAD (finding the mole), CR, QOS and SF.

The heavy allusions to OHMSS throughout TWINE really say otherwise. However, I would agree that they didn't succeed at making the relationship between Bond and Elektra work, so the allusions really don't pay off as well as they should have.

Ah it's like the good ol' days - MP and Fields debating TWINE :)

The allusions to OHMSS are prominent, I agree, but it's not to say that Bond was in love with Elektra. Yeah Babs said that they want it to 'seem like Bond has met a Tracy, but really he's met a Blofeld', but he was always about the mission - sneaking off after sex to snoop around her villa, your favourite scene where Bond explains that Renard knew all about his shoulder, even at the casino with the 'this is a game I can't afford to play' suggests that Bond was more about the mission, and less about being in love with her. If he were, I'd wager he'd justify her actions, and stay with her for some morning sex.

That said, I really wish that the 'Daddy's little girl is insane' exchange stayed.

lachesis wrote:

Strangways&Quarrel wrote:

I know SPECTRE is not going to be a change from "This time it's personal!" thing we've seen so far in the Craig ...

I wish I was so certain but it still reads very much as regurgitating that same theme albeit with the twist of 'you know that thing you finally got over....well here's new reasons to dredge it all back up....oh and here's a surrogate family member to twist the knife!'.

Modern films renew the notions of a Ptolemaic Universe, but instead of the universe revolving around the Earth it instead revolves around one character and everything relates back or arises out of the one person. I'd love Bond to tackle something in a universe that actually behaved more like ours again one day, "this that and the other has happened the situation is critical, it was nothing to do with you....but you are just the man to go sort it out Bond and that's is after all exactly what the 00's are all about!" By all means become invested in the operation and the people it affects but do that as a natural consequence of involvement and do it alongside the audience don't buy a cheap emo-centric short cut or some ludicrously contrived prior link.

Agreed 100%.

FieldsMan wrote:

Ah it's like the good ol' days - MP and Fields debating TWINE :)

The allusions to OHMSS are prominent, I agree, but it's not to say that Bond was in love with Elektra. Yeah Babs said that they want it to 'seem like Bond has met a Tracy, but really he's met a Blofeld', but he was always about the mission - sneaking off after sex to snoop around her villa, your favourite scene where Bond explains that Renard knew all about his shoulder, even at the casino with the 'this is a game I can't afford to play' suggests that Bond was more about the mission, and less about being in love with her. If he were, I'd wager he'd justify her actions, and stay with her for some morning sex.

That said, I really wish that the 'Daddy's little girl is insane' exchange stayed.

Even though he would like to believe that she meant nothing to him, Bond's behavior throughout the whole film suggests he doesn't have that under control. If he were thinking more about the mission, he would have acted more coldly and objectively. However, he demonstrates a very hot blooded approach, like when encountering Renard, pistol whipping him on the head after taunting Bond about how he "broke her". When he breaks into her room, demanding that she "drop the act" instead of warn MI6. When Bond holds her at gunpoint with the rage boiling in his eyes before he shoots her down. His last moment where he tenderly caresses her face before getting back to the job. This all suggests that Elektra did mean something to him, and that her betrayal brought out something unstable from within. I always said I hated this stuff, saying it's out of character for Bond and that he's made out to be too much of a fool. Truth is, this is great material for a Bond film that would have been very different and exciting. A nice course correction after the emptiness of TND.

What simply prevents that from working for me is that I don't think it was well developed, especially since we never get to see Bond's "breaking point" of finally giving into Elektra's temptations. Had those key elements been in place, it would have made a world's difference.

Makeshift Python wrote:

CJB wrote:

Eet eez my oil, though.

"one... lahst... screwwwww.."

As Brozza pulls off a 'painface' that looks like a squirrel with its cheek-pouches stuffed full of food for the winter.