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Erica Ambler
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PostSubject: Re: Islamic State attacks Paris   Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:07 am

Salomé wrote:
My point stands.

You want to score points? If I were Belgian I'd be apologising to France right now.

Considering Islamic State has only existed in its present form for a year I'd say its military capabilities, professionalism and coordination are astounding. And this report in Buzzfeed last January keeps coming back to me:

Quote :
An ISIS operative traveled across the Syrian border late last year, settled in a Turkish port city, and began work on a mission to sneak jihadis into Europe. It has been successful, he said, in an interview near the Turkey-Syria border: “Just wait.”

The operative, a Syrian in his thirties with a close-cropped black beard, said ISIS is sending covert fighters to Europe — as did two smugglers who said they have helped. He smuggles them from Turkey in small groups, he said, hidden in cargo ships filled with hundreds of refugees. He said the fighters intend to fulfill ISIS’s threat to stage attacks in the West.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mikegiglio/isis-operative-this-is-how-we-send-jihadis-to-europe#.yfWaBRJ4q
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Salomé
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PostSubject: Re: Islamic State attacks Paris   Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:04 am

Erica Ambler wrote:
Salomé wrote:
My point stands.

You want to score points? If I were Belgian I'd be apologising to France right now.


I was actually waiting for that immature remark. Took longer than I thought it would. You're slipping a bit, Ambler.

Yes, I feel deeply responsible, having been both the mayor of Molenbeek and Belgian prime minister for the past 25 years.

Moving past pettiness, I don't see why I should suddenly consider this violence as a sign of the end of our culture. Certainly not from a historical perspective.

You are a bit older than me so you should have more conscious memories of the epidemic of far-left and far-right terror that plagued Europe from the late 1960s to roughly the mid to late 80s.

The period of relative calm that came before 9/11 was very much the exception, not the rule.

The hysterical reactions we are now getting are a result of people having fooled themselves into believing they could ever be completely safe from such carnage. Any society that is not utterly repressive will be vulnerable to such acts.

I find it hard to imagine how this generation would react to something like Aldo Moro's murder.
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Salomé
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PostSubject: Re: Islamic State attacks Paris   Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:10 am

As for the other point in your post: it is curious then that all of the terrorists of the Paris attack that have so far been identified were born and bred in the heart of Europe.

In fact, is there an attack in the list you provided that was not carried out by a European Muslim? I am not being facetious, I honestly do not know and am curious as to what the answer might be.
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Erica Ambler
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PostSubject: Re: Islamic State attacks Paris   Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:38 am

Salomé wrote:
You are a bit older than me

You're very sweet, but too old for me. I work on half plus seven.
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Erica Ambler
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PostSubject: Re: Islamic State attacks Paris   Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:11 am

The best moment in the current series of Homeland. Anyone got an HD copy?



Clueless Bureaucrat: You said a program should be renewed. I'm asking is our strategy working?

Quinn: What strategy? Tell me what the strategy is and I'll tell you if it's working.

[awkward silence]

See, that right there is the problem because they - they have a strategy. They're gathering right now in Raqqa by the tens of thousands, hidden in the civilian population, cleaning their weapons and they know exactly why they're there.

Clueless Bureaucrat: Why is that?

Quinn: They call it the End Times. What do you think the beheadings are about? The crucifixions in Deir Hafer, the revival of slavery? Do you think they make this shit up? It's all in the book. Their fucking book. The only book they ever read - they read it all the time. They never stop. They're there for one reason and one reason only: to die for the Caliphate and usher in a world without infidels. That's their strategy and it's been that way since the seventh century. So do you really think that a few special forces teams are going to put a dent in that?

Clueless Bureaucrat: Well, what would you do?

Quinn: Are you offering me a promotion?

Clueless Bureaucrat: I'm offering you a hypothetical.

Quinn: 200,000 American troops on the ground indefinitely to provide security and support for an equal number of doctors and elementary school teachers.

Clueless Bureaucrat: Well that's not going to happen.

Quinn: Then I better get back there.

Clueless Bureaucrat: What else? What else would make a difference?

Quinn: Hit reset.

Clueless Bureaucrat: Meaning what?

Quinn: Meaning pound Raqqa into a parking lot.
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CJB
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PostSubject: Re: Islamic State attacks Paris   Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:47 am

Quote :
An ISIS operative traveled across the Syrian border late last year, settled in a Turkish port city, and began work on a mission to sneak jihadis into Europe. It has been successful, he said, in an interview near the Turkey-Syria border: “Just wait.”

The operative, a Syrian in his thirties with a close-cropped black beard, said ISIS is sending covert fighters to Europe — as did two smugglers who said they have helped. He smuggles them from Turkey in small groups, he said, hidden in cargo ships filled with hundreds of refugees. He said the fighters intend to fulfill ISIS’s threat to stage attacks in the West.

A risk Europe should be willing to bear, seeing as the refugees will undoubtedly become productive, net taxpayers.
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bitchcraft
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PostSubject: Re: Islamic State attacks Paris   Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:01 pm

Looks like Anonymous is getting involved...
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Gravity's Silhouette
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PostSubject: Re: Islamic State attacks Paris   Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:07 pm

CJB wrote:
Quote :
An ISIS operative traveled across the Syrian border late last year, settled in a Turkish port city, and began work on a mission to sneak jihadis into Europe. It has been successful, he said, in an interview near the Turkey-Syria border: “Just wait.”

The operative, a Syrian in his thirties with a close-cropped black beard, said ISIS is sending covert fighters to Europe — as did two smugglers who said they have helped. He smuggles them from Turkey in small groups, he said, hidden in cargo ships filled with hundreds of refugees. He said the fighters intend to fulfill ISIS’s threat to stage attacks in the West.

A risk Europe should be willing to bear, seeing as the refugees will undoubtedly become productive, net taxpayers.

If I hadn't already seen the attacks taking place on the news, I might have thought, based on the subject heading of this thread, that Paris was suffering from a particularly aggressive attack of mildew. Referring to them as generic "scum" somehow feels like it's missing the point. But if I am to believe Chris Matthews, basically referring to them as Islamic just 'gives them what they want'. Mediaite. But I digress.

Why does President Obama consistently lecture the world on what Islamic values are and are not? What is it to him? What is his currency in the matter? How is he anymore qualified to say these people are not true Muslims than I am to say that they are? THEY believe they are and that's all that really matters.

A few months ago on this board, somewhere in one of these threads, I stated that the idea of Europe and the U.S. accepting Syrian refugees was going to end badly; that among the current crops of young male (like, aged 10 and under) refugees would be the suicide bombers of tomorrow in another decade or so. That the seeds of radicalism were already being sown and that these waves of refugees  would be the death of Western Europe in another 10-15 years. And I got all the predictable responses: 'Oh, there goes Gravy, being all Islamophobic...Xenophobic...racist...hate-mongering....blah blah blah...'. I wished I was wrong. I had no idea how quickly I was going to be right.

On any given day a good Muslim is a Muslim that will never assimilate to Western culture; will never learn the language; will never convert to Christianity, secularism or even atheism; will bring all the failed beliefs and policies of their third-world shit-hole of a homeland with them to their new country and will try and get their new country to completely change who they are in order to accommodate their backwards, ancient, oppressive customs...their intolerance for anybody different...their rape and subjugation of women. But again, I digress.

Those are the "moderate Muslims"...basically the ones that probably won't kill you. Wooh hooh!!! I know I feel lucky!  wink  Unfortunately, from that "mainstream", "moderate" belief system it is just a short hop, skip and a jump to the more "radical", "extreme" beliefs of groups like Al-Qaeda and ISIS.

You cannot separate these people's religious beliefs from their activism/terrorism. It IS who they are. Without their religious beliefs they have nothing; they are nothing. Without those beliefs they are no longer terrorists. So yes, we ARE at war with Islam, even if the U.S. government, led by both George W. Bush and Barack Hussein Obama, trip over themselves to assure us that Islam is a religion of peace and love and that we are not at war with. THEY are at war with US. To paraphrase ALIEN3: 'The only question is how are you going to go out? Do you want it on your feet? Or on your knees... begging?'
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Salomé
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PostSubject: Re: Islamic State attacks Paris   Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:14 pm

Quote :
The present-day Saudi kingdom, which regularly beheads supposed criminals after unfair trials, is building a Riyadh museum dedicated to al-Wahab’s teachings, and the old prelate’s rage against idolaters and immorality has found expression in Isis’s accusation against Paris as a centre of “prostitution”. Much Isis funding has come from Saudis – although, once again, this fact has been wiped from the terrible story of the Friday massacre.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/france-s-unresolved-algerian-war-sheds-light-on-the-paris-attack-a6736901.html

Any supposed solution that does not deal with this reality is an illusion.
Where were the 9/11 plotters from again? Oh.
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Erica Ambler
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PostSubject: Re: Islamic State attacks Paris   Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:38 pm

That's one reality, but dealing with it is not easy.

Saudi Arabia is the world's biggest importer of arms and Britain's biggest export contract Al-Yamamah is with Saudi. While it's easy for virtue signallers and wishful thinkers to come up with one-line solutions and slogans (you're not SarahN in disguise are you?), the more intelligent practice Realpolitik.
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Erica Ambler
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PostSubject: Re: Islamic State attacks Paris   Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:48 pm

Salomé wrote:
My point stands. Depending on the results of the inquiry into the Russian airliner, that is.

Egypt plane crash: Russia says jet was bombed in terror attack: two Sharm el-Sheikh airport employees held, Reuters reports, after FSB says crash was ‘unequivocally a terrorist act’

Of courses, the results were in weeks ago at GCHQ and Airbus, but it didn't suit the politics of Putin's airstrikes in Syria to admit it. Post-Paris he can make the Russian attacks look part of a global anti-terror effort and use the bombing of Russian tourists to his advantage.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/17/egypt-plane-crash-bomb-jet-russia-security-service

Gravity's Silhouette wrote:
If I hadn't already seen the attacks taking place on the news, I might have thought, based on the subject heading of this thread, that Paris was suffering from a particularly aggressive attack of mildew. Referring to them as generic "scum" somehow feels like it's missing the point. But if I am to believe Chris Matthews, basically referring to them as Islamic just 'gives them what they want'. Mediaite. But I digress.

Fixed. Now get on with it.
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Salomé
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PostSubject: Re: Islamic State attacks Paris   Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:04 am

Erica Ambler wrote:
That's one reality, but dealing with it is not easy.

Saudi Arabia is the world's biggest importer of arms and Britain's biggest export contract Al-Yamamah is with Saudi. While it's easy for virtue signallers and wishful thinkers to come up with one-line solutions and slogans (you're not SarahN in disguise are you?), the more intelligent practice Realpolitik.

I never claimed that only dealing with the Saudis would solve the problem. Quite the opposite.
I stated that any solution that does not also deal with them would ultimately fall short.

At what point do you feel would it be justified to hold them accountable for their complicity in the murder of our citizens?
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Erica Ambler
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PostSubject: Re: Islamic State attacks Paris   Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:13 am

Salomé wrote:
any solution that does not also deal with them would ultimately fall short.

I agree, but this is one of the many difficulties facing Western democracies. The conflict between East and West requires a combination of measures that will outlive any one government. They involve everything from airstrikes, discouraging migrants and repealing Schengen in the short-term, to reclaiming national borders, increasing defence spending and achieving energy self-sufficiency in the long-term. However, in Britain, the cross-party consensus has broken down. Labour's Jeremy Corbyn, a '30s-style pacifist, has not only undermined nuclear deterrence, he's stated he will stop police officers from using lethal force when dealing with terrorists armed with automatic weapons. And that's before we try and drag 27 other EU nations, the USA, China and Russia into the mix.

Salomé wrote:
At what point do you feel would it be justified to hold them accountable for their complicity in the murder of our citizens?

Immediately. But we need a covert not overt campaign. Exactly what national parliaments have prevented security services from doing even though it's been part of foreign policy for centuries.
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Erica Ambler
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PostSubject: Re: Islamic State attacks Paris   Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:05 am

Thought I'd look into that Independent story Sabs quoted.

Seems the Saudis are not funding Islamic State anymore, at least not openly. In 2013, Saudi Arabia criminalised financial support of terrorist organisations and last year, Reuters carried this story about RSAF strikes against ISIS:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/09/23/us-syria-crisis-saudi-idUSKCN0HI1Y120140923#c9fhsKxsesVvFXU5.97

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Erica Ambler
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PostSubject: Re: Islamic State attacks Paris   Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:47 am

Love this guy. Now the UK just needs her other three million Muslims to stand up against their deranged brothers.


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PostSubject: Re: Islamic State attacks Paris   Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:27 am

Erica Ambler wrote:
Labour's Jeremy Corbyn, a '30s-style pacifist, has not only undermined nuclear deterrence, he's stated he will stop police officers from using lethal force when dealing with terrorists armed with automatic weapons.

Well he wouldn't want to get in the way of their cultural self-expression. Especially not since most jihadis are good Labour voters who value the welfare state (or jizya by proxy as I understand many of them view it).
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Erica Ambler
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PostSubject: Re: Islamic State attacks Paris   Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:38 am

Salomé wrote:
Erica Ambler wrote:
Salomé wrote:
My point stands.

You want to score points? If I were Belgian I'd be apologising to France right now.


I was actually waiting for that immature remark. Took longer than I thought it would. You're slipping a bit, Ambler.

You better direct your righteous anger towards the immature Guardian, oh wise one:

Why are terrorists drawn to Belgium?

Quote :
Although Brussels is the diplomatic capital of the world, Belgian state security only has some 600 employees (the exact figure is classified information). Its military counterpart, Adiv, has a similar number. That makes just over a thousand intelligence officers to secure a country that hosts not only Nato and the EU institutions but also the World Customs Organisation, the European Economic Area, the Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial Telecommunication (Swift), the European Organisation for the Safety of Air Navigation (Eurocontrol), another 2,500 international agencies, 2,000 international companies and 150 international law firms.

One does not need to be 007 to understand that the security challenge is huge – not only taking into account terrorism but also espionage and cybercrime. The disregard of the Belgian political world for intelligence and the lack of an intelligence culture have allowed terrorist groups to proliferate.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/17/terrorists-belgium-paris-attacks

I always assumed EU incompetence was malicious, but maybe it's just Belgian. wink
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PostSubject: Re: Islamic State attacks Paris   Sat Nov 21, 2015 12:59 pm

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/army-chaplains-to-remove-conquer-from-102-year-old-motto-because-it-is-offensive-to-muslims/story-fni0cx4q-1227617586616#load-story-comments

The cultural surrender continues unabated. Why would any immigrant or child of immigrants wish to identify themselves as an Australian (or Briton, Canadian etc.) when the multi-cult Anglophone nations have zero self-regard for their own histories, traditions, and culture?
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bitchcraft
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PostSubject: Re: Islamic State attacks Paris   Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:28 pm

Trump wants to use submarines to blow these camel fuckers out of existence with Trident missiles.

Not sure what Obama wants.
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PostSubject: Re: Islamic State attacks Paris   Sat Nov 21, 2015 11:19 pm

Oh Donald ... if it wasn't for the hair and his surname being a slang term in the UK for breaking wind, I might be able to take him seriously.

Actually, scrub that. No I fucking wouldn't.
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Salomé
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PostSubject: Re: Islamic State attacks Paris   Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:04 am

Erica Ambler wrote:
Salomé wrote:
Erica Ambler wrote:
Salomé wrote:
My point stands.

You want to score points? If I were Belgian I'd be apologising to France right now.


I was actually waiting for that immature remark. Took longer than I thought it would. You're slipping a bit, Ambler.

You better direct your righteous anger towards the immature Guardian, oh wise one:

Why are terrorists drawn to Belgium?

Quote :
Although Brussels is the diplomatic capital of the world, Belgian state security only has some 600 employees (the exact figure is classified information). Its military counterpart, Adiv, has a similar number. That makes just over a thousand intelligence officers to secure a country that hosts not only Nato and the EU institutions but also the World Customs Organisation, the European Economic Area, the Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial Telecommunication (Swift), the European Organisation for the Safety of Air Navigation (Eurocontrol), another 2,500 international agencies, 2,000 international companies and 150 international law firms.

One does not need to be 007 to understand that the security challenge is huge – not only taking into account terrorism but also espionage and cybercrime. The disregard of the Belgian political world for intelligence and the lack of an intelligence culture have allowed terrorist groups to proliferate.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/17/terrorists-belgium-paris-attacks

I always assumed EU incompetence was malicious, but maybe it's just Belgian. wink

Anger? I wasn't angry. Just surprised it took you so long. :)
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Erica Ambler
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PostSubject: Re: Islamic State attacks Paris   Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:31 am

I know, I was just poking the princess with my stick. wink Are you in lockdown in Ghent or is that media exaggeration?
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PostSubject: Re: Islamic State attacks Paris   Sun Nov 22, 2015 2:16 am

Blunt Instrument wrote:
Oh Donald ... if it wasn't for the hair and his surname being a slang term in the UK for breaking wind, I might be able to take him seriously.

Actually, scrub that. No I fucking wouldn't.  

Hey, he might be the next POTUS.
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Salomé
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PostSubject: Re: Islamic State attacks Paris   Sun Nov 22, 2015 2:31 am

Erica Ambler wrote:
I know, I was just poking the princess with my stick. wink Are you in lockdown in Ghent or is that media exaggeration?

Brussels is the place where it's currently worst. Must be pretty sad to live in a city which has effectively halted social gatherings.

The biggest difference I've seen is just more of a visible police presence on the streets.
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PostSubject: Re: Islamic State attacks Paris   Sun Nov 22, 2015 4:04 am

bitchcraft wrote:
Blunt Instrument wrote:
Oh Donald ... if it wasn't for the hair and his surname being a slang term in the UK for breaking wind, I might be able to take him seriously.

Actually, scrub that. No I fucking wouldn't.  

Hey, he might be the next POTUS.

As opposed to a POS right now? tongue
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