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Salomé
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PostSubject: Re: Hollywoodies.   Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:12 am

Erica Ambler wrote:
Salomé wrote:
It takes an Evel Knievel worthy leap of logic to go from "perhaps serial sexual predators should be held accountable for their actions?" to "fuck all men!".

Laws already exists to punish criminal behaviour, though I agree with you that all men should be fucked - that's all most of us want, really. Melanie Phillips' point is:

Quote :
Sexual attacks or harassment are being conflated with minor incidents of lewd and crass behaviour. A man placing his hand on a woman’s knee is being denounced in the same breath as rape.

Is it though? I don't think anyone is seriously equating the two things with each other.
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PostSubject: Re: Hollywoodies.   Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:31 pm

http://variety.com/2017/biz/news/jon-bernthal-kevin-spacey-1202610696/

Interesting, though not very relevant in terms of the accusations.
A lot of actors and directors have a reputation of being dicks on (and off) set.

I did notice that David O'Russell has also been dragged into this somewhat, with a reexamination of his crazy on-set behavior in the past (his near-fight with Clooney on "Three Kings", his explosion of rage against Lily Tomlin during the shoot of "I Heart Huckabees" and more recently his abusive behavior towards Amy Adams on the set of "American Hustle").
As a side-note, I do find his work ridiculously overrated.
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FieldsMan
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PostSubject: Re: Hollywoodies.   Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:40 pm

I find his work overrated also. 

What happened with Amy Adams? I've heard about the confrontations with Clooney and Tomlin, but not Amy Adams. How could you get angry at her? She seems like one of the most humble, level headed people in Hollywood. 

Two women have come forward saying a Gossip Girl actor raped them. Don't know the accused nor the accusers but obviously it's deplorable behaviour if true.
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Salomé
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PostSubject: Re: Hollywoodies.   Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:58 pm

FieldsMan wrote:
I find his work overrated also. 

What happened with Amy Adams? I've heard about the confrontations with Clooney and Tomlin, but not Amy Adams. How could you get angry at her? She seems like one of the most humble, level headed people in Hollywood. 

Two women have come forward saying a Gossip Girl actor raped them. Don't know the accused nor the accusers but obviously it's deplorable behaviour if true.

Supposedly O'Russell was very abusive throughout the shoot to Amy Adams, so much so that an exasperated Christian Bale eventually stepped in and told O'Russell to stop acting like an asshole to her.
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Erica Ambler
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PostSubject: Re: Hollywoodies.   Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:03 pm

Salomé wrote:
Christian Bale eventually stepped in and told O'Russell to stop acting like an asshole to her.

In 15 years time, Adams will file criminal charges against Bale accusing him of being patronising and mansplaining. That's the normal practice.
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PostSubject: Re: Hollywoodies.   Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:05 pm

Erica Ambler wrote:
Salomé wrote:
Christian Bale eventually stepped in and told O'Russell to stop acting like an asshole to her.

In 15 years time,  Adams will file criminal charges against Bale accusing him of being patronising and mansplaining. That's the normal practice.

I think you are overreacting a bit. There is nothing wrong with serial abusers being outed for what they are.

And in terms of the Hollywood revelations, very few of them have been of the mild variety so far.
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Erica Ambler
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PostSubject: Re: Hollywoodies.   Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:08 pm

A joke is overreacting? File charges.

Salomé wrote:
There is nothing wrong with serial abusers being outed for what they are.

And in terms of the Hollywood revelations, very few of them have been of the mild variety so far.

You don't believe in innocent until proven guilty do you? Another irritating anglo-saxon concept.


Last edited by Erica Ambler on Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Salomé
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PostSubject: Re: Hollywoodies.   Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:14 pm

Erica Ambler wrote:
A joke is overreacting? File charges.

It wasn't really in response to the joke but to the tenor of some of your recent posts, which seem to consider this current backlash at least partially out of proportion.
I think with the large majority of stories coming out of the entertainment industry, the accusations are serious enough to warrant the attention that has been devoted to them.

For the most part, these women aren't accusing men of a mere "hand on the knee" scenario.

Every single woman has instances of unwanted/unwelcome touching in her past.
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Erica Ambler
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PostSubject: Re: Hollywoodies.   Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:16 pm

Salomé wrote:
Every single woman has instances of unwanted/unwelcome touching in her past.
We all have. Part of life.
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PostSubject: Re: Hollywoodies.   Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:20 pm

Erica Ambler wrote:
Salomé wrote:
Every single woman has instances of unwanted/unwelcome touching in her past.
We all have. Part of life.

Well yes, but the majority of the Hollywood accusations are about behavior that goes well beyond that.
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Erica Ambler
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PostSubject: Re: Hollywoodies.   Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:22 pm

Then - and I mean it this time - criminal charges should be filed. The law is very specific about what constitutes assault.
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Salomé
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PostSubject: Re: Hollywoodies.   Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:22 pm

Erica Ambler wrote:
A joke is overreacting? File charges.

Salomé wrote:
There is nothing wrong with serial abusers being outed for what they are.

And in terms of the Hollywood revelations, very few of them have been of the mild variety so far.

You don't believe in innocent until proven guilty do you? Another irritating anglo-saxon concept.

I do. As far as I know, none of these men have been imprisoned?
In any case, with many of these cases, the statute of limitations will have been exceeded.
So I expect all of them to get out of this fairly unscathed, including Weinstein.
He'll just have to be patient and go through the 'redemption and rehabilitation' performance theater.
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PostSubject: Re: Hollywoodies.   Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:27 pm

In the case of Weinstein, the bulk of his supposed crimes took place in NYC and California.

That means that in the case of California, he is off the hook for any accusations older than ten years and in NYC, he is in the clear for anything but first degree rape (which I believe does not conform to any of the stories as they have been presented thus far) for any accusation involving an incident older than five years.
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Erica Ambler
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PostSubject: Re: Hollywoodies.   Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:29 pm

Salomé wrote:
[As far as I know, none of these men have been imprisoned?

Unless you’re living a in a dictatorship it’s usually necessary to be convicted before being imprisoned.

The law is very specific about what constitutes assault. Agreeing to sex to further your career and then regretting it is a mistake not assault.
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PostSubject: Re: Hollywoodies.   Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:30 pm

It is interesting that the only accused who is really feeling the bulk of the backlash is Kevin Spacey.
Production on his show has been halted. Ridley Scott is going to re-shoot his role in his upcoming film.
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PostSubject: Re: Hollywoodies.   Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:31 pm

Erica Ambler wrote:
The law is very specific about what constitutes assault. Agreeing to sex to further your career and then regretting it is a mistake not assault.

And this is what you reduce all of the accusations to? Interesting.
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PostSubject: Re: Hollywoodies.   Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:32 pm

All of the Spacey allegations seem to be straight forward assault rather than "I'll give you a part in my movie if you sleep with me". Big difference.
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PostSubject: Re: Hollywoodies.   Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:33 pm

Salomé wrote:
Erica Ambler wrote:
The law is very specific about what constitutes assault. Agreeing to sex to further your career and then regretting it is a mistake not assault.

And this is what you reduce all of the accusations to? Interesting.

You said that not me.
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PostSubject: Re: Hollywoodies.   Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:49 pm

Erica Ambler wrote:
All of the Spacey allegations seem to be straight forward assault rather than "I'll give you a part in my movie if you sleep with me". Big difference.

Yeah, but shouldn't "innocent until proven guilty" also apply to him?
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Erica Ambler
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PostSubject: Re: Hollywoodies.   Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:54 pm

Salomé wrote:
Erica Ambler wrote:
All of the Spacey allegations seem to be straight forward assault rather than "I'll give you a part in my movie if you sleep with me". Big difference.

Yeah, but shouldn't "innocent until proven guilty" also apply to him?

It should apply to all of us. Justice is the least we can expect.

However, it seems no one has alleged that Spacey attempted to trade sex for favours, which is the case in most of the other stories.
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PostSubject: Re: Hollywoodies.   Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:55 pm

Erica Ambler wrote:
Salomé wrote:
Erica Ambler wrote:
All of the Spacey allegations seem to be straight forward assault rather than "I'll give you a part in my movie if you sleep with me". Big difference.

Yeah, but shouldn't "innocent until proven guilty" also apply to him?

It should apply to all of us. Justice is the least we can expect.

However, it seems no one has alleged that Spacey attempted to trade sex for favours, which is the case in most of the other stories.

Is it though? It seems primarily a theme in Ashley Judd's story.
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PostSubject: Re: Hollywoodies.   Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:57 pm

Can you point me to a good summary? Must be one out there somewhere.

I know Asia Argento says she was raped, which makes me wonder why criminal charges have not been brought.
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PostSubject: Re: Hollywoodies.   Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:06 pm

Erica Ambler wrote:
Can you point me to a good summary? Must be one out there somewhere.

I know Asia Argento says she was raped, which makes me wonder why criminal charges have not been brought.

Asia Argento is one of the more complex accusers. She admits that she also at one point had a consensual sexual relationship with Weinstein.
I believe this is one of the reasons why she has faced such a backlash in her home country.

This is an incomplete list (it's a month old), but it's the most succinct listing I could find on short notice:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/10/us/harvey-weinstein-accusations.html
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Erica Ambler
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PostSubject: Re: Hollywoodies.   Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:10 pm

Salomé wrote:
Asia Argento is one of the more complex accusers. She admits that she also at one point had a consensual sexual relationship with Weinstein.
In theory, that's irrelevant. In practice, juries tend to find that odd - in a less public case, a judge might have ruled that detail inadmissable.

Thanks for the list, I'll take a proper look at lunchtime.
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Erica Ambler
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PostSubject: Re: Hollywoodies.   Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:54 pm

That's certainly a long catalogue of allegations. Unfortunately, I have not got time to read it properly right now.

I will say it’s immediately striking how the Weinstein side refers to making 'advances', which are not illegal. The allegations generally involve two people alone together, meaning - in the absence of physical evidence - it’s going to be Weinstein's word against theirs. However, a prosecutor will argue these allegations demonstrate a cumulative pattern. NDAs and payoffs may also be argued as evidence of wrongdoing.

So far – and, again, I stress I have not managed to read everything – it seems no one left a meeting physically marked or with torn clothing. A defence may argue that this means Weinstein did not physically force himself on anyone. The repeated assertions that actresses were subsequently offered agents or jobs will be construed by some as sex for work.

If Weinstein used his position to push for sex, it might well be considered unethical and/or unprofessional behaviour. The question is whether or not that is criminal, and that's not clear to me.

I need to look at this in greater detail.
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