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 For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill

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PostSubject: For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill   For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill EmptyWed Nov 29, 2017 9:31 pm

The reason why I feel like comparing those two is cause I just finished the series again, and decided which Bond entries I liked, compared to the ones I felt were the missfires. However, there are two I cannot decide on that are right down the middle line for me, and it's these two.

Basically For Your Eyes Only I felt had two bland girls, (perhaps 3 as the countess was not that great either), and bland villains. I felt Kristatos was too on the nose and nothing more, same with pretty much the henchmen.

I do like Columbo though and I like the Cold War plot overall.

And for A View to A Kill, I think the villain and henchwoman are much better and more memorable, but the plot is not as good, and didn't really get behind the whole Silicon valley thing. That would be a like a Bond villain trying to take over Facebook or something in today's Bond movies. But I really like the villains more than usual. Some of the elements of FYEO feel more fresh compared to AVTAK where they are more worn out by then.

For example, a lot of Moore Bond movies end with MI6 not knowing where Bond is, and then they catch him in an awkward situation at the end, played for laughs. But I felt that the parrot moment in FYEO, felt more fresh, compared to the shower moment, with the robot in AVTAK. In fact, they never really made good use of that robot and it feels like a last minute re-write to make up for a forgotten gadget. But that's just an example.

What do you think?
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PostSubject: Re: For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill   For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill EmptyWed Nov 29, 2017 10:28 pm

I'd edge toward FYEO for the stronger story and excellent ski chase. But AVTAK is very close behind it, since it features my favourite villain and henchman, with a cracking score and Stacey Sutton.

If you edit your opening post and scroll down, you could add a poll if you like?
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PostSubject: Re: For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill   For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill EmptyWed Nov 29, 2017 10:38 pm

Yeah I guess I like Stacey Sutton better than Melina Havelock in some ways. I use to think Sutton was the worst Bond girl, but after watching the series again, she is not that bad at all. In fact, kind of good.

Some people say they don't like her cause she's a screaming damsel in distress, but if I were to trapped in an elevator shaft on fire, I'd be screaming my butt off for help too.
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PostSubject: Re: For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill   For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill EmptySat Dec 02, 2017 6:38 am

ironpony wrote:
Some people say they don't like her cause she's a screaming damsel in distress, but if I were to trapped in an elevator shaft on fire, I'd be screaming my butt off for help too.

Heh, this is my line of defence for Stacey as well.
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PostSubject: Re: For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill   For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill EmptySat Dec 02, 2017 11:50 am

FYEO for me, for the following reasons -

I like Tracy being referred to in the pre-credits sequence (especially as it provides invaluable 'ammo' in shooting down that stupid 'James Bond is a codename passed from one agent to another' idea).

Although elements are cringeworthy, the rest of the pre-credits sequence neatly raises a middle finger in the general direction of Kevin McClory and his legal squabbling over the 'rights' to the use of Blofeld.

The ATAC falling into the wrong hands is a decently sizeable yet credible threat.

There are some silly gags, but overall the script isn't overburdened by them.

It contains 2 of the most suspenseful sequences Moore's Bond was ever involved in (the dive to retrieve the ATAC and the climb to St Cyril's). Plus his most ruthless (kicking Locque's car off the cliff).

Columbo makes for an excellent ally, and the scenes with Lisl have a warmth and are pleasantly amusing.

Bond's 'That's detente, comrade ... ' to Gogol about his destruction of the ATAC is utterly perfect for an Cold War-era espionage action adventure.

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PostSubject: Re: For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill   For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill EmptySat Dec 02, 2017 11:21 pm

Good summary and I agree with all of that except Bond retrieving the ATAC, since it's bogged down by two subsequent sequences before Bond gets out of the water again. I'd replace that with the snow sequence, where Bond is being tailed and shot at by Kriegler. Deftly sets him up as an expert shooter, so when it comes to hit Bond, it's nail biting stuff. And leading to the ski jump, which is superbly crafted, with Conti's ambient score as Bond enters the lift and stairwell is much more intense than the ATAC retrieval in my eyes. 

But everything else I agree with. It just occurred to me that the fact Kristatos is so careless with the ATAC makes him all the more villainous. As long as he gets his pay from the Soviets...
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PostSubject: Re: For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill   For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill EmptySun Dec 03, 2017 12:39 am

Was never big on the scene where Bond goes diving in that goofy Michelin Man suit.
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PostSubject: Re: For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill   For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill EmptySun Dec 03, 2017 12:58 am

laugh

Yep. Brings the film to a halt, especially when that second sub attacks Bond and Melina.
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PostSubject: Re: For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill   For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill EmptyMon Dec 18, 2017 10:08 am

I didn't get part of the climax of FYEO.

SPOILER

Bond tries to talk Melina out of killing Kristatos, saying that it's not the answer, but then right after talking her out of it, Columbo kills Kristatos, while Kristatos is helpless.

Doesn't that kind of negate the point, Bond was trying to make? I mean it seems to me that the filmmakers didn't want Melina going down the path of revenge, but then they were afraid to own it, and so they have Columbo kill Kristatos as sort of a freebee for Melina?
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PostSubject: Re: For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill   For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill EmptyMon Dec 18, 2017 10:29 am

Sounds about right.
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PostSubject: Re: For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill   For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill EmptyMon Dec 18, 2017 10:55 am

Considering that Kristatos was about to stab either Bond or Melina, Columbo killed him to protect them.
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PostSubject: Re: For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill   For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill EmptyMon Dec 18, 2017 6:24 pm

Oh right, I watched it again and Kristatos snuck out a knife. However, Columbo could not see this from his point of view, could he? Doesn't Columbo think he is killing a helpless Kristatos, with a crossbow already aimed at him?
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PostSubject: Re: For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill   For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill EmptyMon Dec 18, 2017 7:44 pm

Kristatos is the chief villain in a Bond flick. Things mostly tend to end only one way for them, if you catch my drift.
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PostSubject: Re: For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill   For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill EmptyMon Dec 18, 2017 7:52 pm

Yeah I understand that it's tradition, but Bond is all about not taking revenge on helpless people, and Columbo couldn't have seen the knife from his point of view, so it feels the point the movie was trying to make becomes moot or negated.

Also this one is trying to be different, or at least people say, so why go for the cliched villain must die ending therefore, especially under these circumstances when Bond is trying to make a certain point?
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PostSubject: Re: For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill   For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill EmptyMon Dec 18, 2017 9:50 pm

It's suggested that Columbo can see Kristatos. But it's also worth noting that Bond wanted to keep Melina away from killing someone. Columbo, who is an underworld figure of sorts, is already tainted so out of the two, it isn't worth Melina suffering the psychological complications after ending someone's life. 

Let's not forget that Kristatos was a key figure in sabotaging a British vessel, stealing a vital component to British defences and organising to pass it over to the Russians, which could have destroyed Britain and the allies. Not to mention the numerous deaths in collateral damage.
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PostSubject: Re: For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill   For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill EmptyMon Dec 18, 2017 10:01 pm

Okay thanks, I can understand that.  I still feel thought that Bond had already gotten revenge before by killing a helpless Blofeld and Loche though.  So he seems to get some sort of satisfaction out of it, if he keeps doing it.

But let's say he is okay with doing it cause he is already tainted. If he wanted to not let Melina be tainted, why did he suggest turning Kristatos over to the police? If Bond believes in getting revenge cause he is already tainted, then wouldn't a more accurate response be "Don't Melina, you're not tainted like me yet. So allow me". And then Bond would then grab Kristatos and throw him off the cliff himself? Cause since he believes in doing revenge himself, wouldn't this response make more sense to his character then?
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PostSubject: Re: For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill   For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill EmptyTue Dec 19, 2017 10:23 pm

As Craig-Bond might lead one to believe, Bond's not about getting revenge. One of the head-scratching moments in the series is Bond's flippancy with dispatching Blofeld in this film, considering he murdered his wife. As for Locque, and I suppose with Blofeld too, they made numerous attempts on his life. Call it self-preservation. 

Ironpony wrote:
wouldn't a more accurate response be "Don't Melina, you're not tainted like me yet. So allow me". 

Thankfully no, because people don't talk like that.  laugh Bond avenging Melina's parents wouldn't fit with Bond's character, nor would it serve the story, since he has no emotional connection to them beside human empathy.
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PostSubject: Re: For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill   For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill EmptyTue Dec 19, 2017 11:15 pm

Well I know people don't like that, but I'm no dialogue writer lol. However, if Bond is killing for self preservation, then why isn't he being consistent about it?

Kristatos wants Bond dead too, since he hired Locque, so why turn over Kristatos to the police, but kill Locque. Why did Bond go from killing for self preservation to turning over to the police? It seems inconsistent of him.
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PostSubject: Re: For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill   For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill EmptyTue Dec 19, 2017 11:44 pm

ironpony wrote:
It seems inconsistent of him.

Man not machine.
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PostSubject: Re: For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill   For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill EmptySat Dec 23, 2017 4:23 am

FYEO needs to be seen on a big screen as it loses something on video. In many ways it is a second unit director's picture and doesn't have the driving force 100% there which can make it a bit slow and meandering.
AVTAK has a nice undercurrent dark theme that always gets overlooked.

Overall FYEO is the stronger film and story but both are indispensable. The "Close Look at AVTAK" book is a great read by the way.
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PostSubject: Re: For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill   For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill EmptySat Dec 23, 2017 4:26 am

What is the dark undercurrent of AVTAK exactly?
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PostSubject: Re: For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill   For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill EmptySat Dec 23, 2017 4:49 am

hegottheboot wrote:
 The "Close Look at AVTAK" book is a great read by the way.

Never heard of this. Will have to seek this one out. Thanks!
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PostSubject: Re: For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill   For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill EmptyMon Jan 08, 2018 5:12 am

Actually, after watching FYEO again, I think it would have been better if the sequence with Blofeld was moved until after the ship with the ATAK on, sunk. Because if they moved it till after the ship was sunk, and then Bond is at Tracy's grave, and the priest comes to say Bond has a chopper being sent for him cause of an emergency, we the audience would assume that emergency was cause of the sunken ship, and it would fit better, timing wise.

We think he is getting the call cause of the sunken ship and it's Blofeld it turns out! So I think it would have been better if that sequence was moved until after, unless I'm wrong?
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PostSubject: Re: For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill   For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill EmptyTue Jan 09, 2018 2:41 am

It's now down in price on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1511620978/ref=olp_product_details?_encoding=UTF8&me=

It's a nice and surprisingly well thought out piece that is a fine addition to any Bond shelf.

The dark undercurrent in AVTAK I was referring to is the overall increase in violence that Roger wasn't a fan of, the psychotic nature of Zorin and the darker tone Walken plays him in, the darker tone of Barry's score which highlights Bond's advancing age and weariness. These are just examples but there seems to have been an attempt to already toughen up the series to compete with 80's action films at this point even before Tim came on board--just as Octopussy was designed to complete with the success of Raiders.

I suppose you could move the FYEO sequences around, but you'd either have to go right from the sinking which would ruin one of my favorite transitions in the series of outstretched hand going for the destruct handle to MI6-or you'd have to have a TWINE like overextended pre-title sequence.

As it is I prefer the way it plays out as it adds even greater emphasis to the weariness of Bond in the scene. "some sort of emergency..." Roger gives a deeper reading than usual with "it usually is" which dovetails perfectly with his reflective tone that he would be in at the gravesite--much like Fleming refers to with Bond making revisits to Vesper's grave in later years.


All this aside I do feel these films lose something when not on the big screen. They really play much better that way-FYEO in particular. I do wish they'd go ahead and release the 4K versions that are supposedly all done since these two are still based on old video transfers and each have their own issues. But of course I'm the nut who went all the way back to Laserdisc to enjoy the series properly.
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PostSubject: Re: For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill   For Your Eyes Only VS. A View to A Kill EmptyTue Jan 09, 2018 9:16 am

Oh okay, I actually like those darker elements of AVTAK kill, and like how the villain was more violent than usual. But I like a lot of dark movies so I'm okay with that in this one.

As for having a longer pre-title sequence in FYEO, the Bond movies have had long title sequences before, like in TSWLM.

In TSWLM the first scene is the submarine being captured, and 2 second scene is the British Navy finding out about it. The 3rd scene is Gogol finding out about it, and the 4th scene, is XXX being told to report in. The 5th scene is then M finding out about it, and wanting to know where 007 is. And then the 6th scene is the opening action ski chase.

So the pre-title sequence had five scenes before the opening action sequence and then the titles after that. So that's 6 scenes before the titles.

So let's say FYEO has the first scene, being the ship sinking, then the second being MI6 finding out, and then the third being Gogol finding out and wanting to get the ATAC first, and then the 4th being Melina's parents being killed.

That would mean that the 5th scene would be Bond at the graveyard getting called, and he would say "It usually is", which I think would work better, after an emergency has already happened for the audience (the ship sinking).

But that is only 4 scenes before the opening action sequence, where as TSWLM took 5 scenes before it got to it, and it still worked well I thought.
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