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 Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights

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Kath
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PostSubject: Re: Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights   Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights - Page 2 EmptyTue Jan 23, 2018 8:45 pm

FieldsMan wrote:
Kath wrote:
Hilly KCMG wrote:
Somebody on that Everything or Nothing film suggested that the strain of the court battle with McClory, likely did its part in hastening Fleming's end.

I did not want to object in general. I just have my difficulties if assumptions are made by paralleling characters and their creators. And when these parallels are considered as definite proof. I mean, you didn't; but it reminded me of the assumption the librarian made some years back.

FieldsMan wrote:
I think of my Connery/Fassbender/Brosnan amalgamation
I am sorry, but I am still new here. What is that? And why these three?

FieldsMan wrote:
There is something charismatic (or, as Kath puts it, elegant) about Bond's handling of the situation, despite the personal connection to Oberhauser. Without sounding like a broken record, this is sensational insight into Bond's character, and something that Craig's era fails to understand (a case could be made for the scene with Mr White in SPECTRE, but I think Bond's idea was to earn White's trust, than to see him commit suicide). There's a careful refinement to Bond and that is something that should be upheld. There also seems to be some respect for Smythe, despite his wrongdoings. Perhaps its the grey that keeps this interesting, and not the black and white.

I did not feel that Smythe was presented respectfully. I was hoping you might elaborate on this, because I totally fail to see it.
I never really understood Bond's role in White's suicide. That man was dying of a thallium intoxication anyway; so his suicide goes into the category of euthanasia. He didn't need Bond to bring him a weapon, did he? It looks like Bond is actually offering his weapon when he says "This is my word". "Tell me all you know about Oberhauser and you may use my weapon to get a merciful death"? The difference between White and Smythe is, IMO, that the first is really a mercy killing whereas the second is a kind of punishment or revenge. Bond is not doing Smythe a favour.

HillyKCMG wrote:
If substituting WWII, you'd have, personally, either the Falklands or Northern Ireland maybe for a Smythe (I visualise an older retired officer, similar looking chap to the character Kamal Khan rips off in Octopussy the film). I'd imagine any Smythe though in a film today would be the first Gulf War or Kosovo. Depends on the detail really.

I totally agree.


When I read Fleming's Bond, I think of a hybrid of those three faces.

The fact that Bond is a peripheral character and a lot of attention is given to Smythe in the opening pages, well before Bond visits him, establishes Smythe as a sympathetic character, especially considering his health problems (though maybe that's just me being sensitive). As for Mr White, it isn't worth getting into a discussion about that, since the script doesn't go beyond what is presented.

Thanks!
Yes, you're right. I was so focusing on his role of a cold-blooded murderer that I had forgotten about it.
I was hoping you would come up with another explanation.  tumbleweed I do not like this idea. That's almost as bad as Madelaine going to bed with a dress and getting up with a nightgown. big laugh
I LOVE SPECTRE, but that's a really, really bad mistake. And whoever chose those costumes...The first time I saw that dress lying on the bed I thought what a horrible piece of clothing that was.  shake head Since when do they put their Bond girls into clothing that makes them ugly? It makes her hips fat and generates the optical trick that she has sagging breasts. Sorry for mentioning that, but why would you ever want that for a Bond girl?  wot Probably it's part of killing the myth, like that watch that "tells the time"...Or it's just a very, very bad choice of clothing.
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Kath
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PostSubject: Re: Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights   Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights - Page 2 EmptyFri Feb 02, 2018 8:46 pm

It's high time for "Property of a Lady"...

I absolutely love the idea that the MI 6 is running a bogus compartment to ensure that Maria Freudenstein sends fake information to her KGB superiors. One of my favourite scenarios of the whole series.

I have three questions I'd love to discuss with you:

-What do you make of Bond's childish behaviour of dropping his coat on the floor because he wants to avoid the hanger Goodnight has bought (with her own money)? Such a willful refusal of a gift is downright childish...so, what do you say? Or is it motivated by frustration because there is no new mission for him, (it is said that it was not necessary to keep his coat in order because of this reason)?

-What do you make of the Proverbs quote in the middle?

-What to you make of the many details we are given about the Fabergé objects? What is their purpose? Add authenticity? Bore the reader?^^
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Mr. Kiss Kiss Bang Bang
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PostSubject: Re: Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights   Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights - Page 2 EmptyMon Feb 05, 2018 9:03 am

I'm afraid I haven't caught up yet. Buried with work. 

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Kath
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PostSubject: Re: Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights   Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights - Page 2 EmptyMon Feb 05, 2018 1:51 pm

Never mind. I have read them all recently, which means that I have them fixed in my memory. (Well, it was kind of "work"). I actually do not have to read and catch up at all. I can sympathize. We probably need a more open schedule; what do you think?

Have you seen yet that there will be Mama Mia 2? But I am afraid that it is the pre-story, so we have a young actor who plays the Brosnan character in his early years. I just remembered having seen the trailer when I saw Brosnan's picture...
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Kath
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PostSubject: Re: Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights   Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights - Page 2 EmptyThu Mar 01, 2018 11:41 am

Shall we move on to TLD? A great film and my favourite short-story...
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PostSubject: Re: Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights   Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights - Page 2 EmptyThu Mar 01, 2018 12:34 pm

Here's a very contemporary review of TLD:

Quote :
In The Living Daylights Fleming lives out his misogyny within a novel Bond reads. The female character is used and abused 'most thoroughly'!! God he was a prick, and one thing I won't miss about the novels is his dis-tasteful views.

I say virtue signalling is not enough. Fleming's body should be exhumed and fed to the dogs. I mean, how dare Fleming makes jokes like that? Almost as bad as hyphenating 'distasteful'.

My favourite BTL response to this insightful criticism: 'Buy A .925 Silver Chain Online'
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PostSubject: Re: Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights   Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights - Page 2 EmptyThu Mar 01, 2018 7:33 pm

'An Intellectual Mediocrity'.

He's not wrong.
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Kath
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PostSubject: Re: Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights   Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights - Page 2 EmptyThu Mar 01, 2018 7:49 pm

Thanks!

So, I am most likely a case lost to romanticism, because I thought the message here was that Bond is sabotaging his very own 00-section to rescue that one woman. He grows sentimental and unprofessional. I mean, this is a major offence, what he's doing here, and it might cost him his 00-status...
And I so loved that story because he deliberately missed, disobeying an order only because he had developed a fancy on her. (And she does not shoot blanks. That was a stupid, stupid change in the film!) He never spoke to her and she does not even know that he exists; still he spares her because he loves the "vivacity" she has and he can't bring himself to extinguishing that.
This is the one occasion when the Licence to Kill means having the Licence not to Kill.
I really hate that they have tuned it down in the film, when Dalton simply says that she wasn't a sniper. She was. A most deadly KGB sniper and Bond of all men spares her because he likes her.
So, Bond does have a heart, after all.
Now you despise MY reading, I guess?  colgate

I've liked that one:

An Intellectual Mediocrity wrote:
The man Smythe had murdered had been a friend of Bond's. He had taught him to ski before the war. In the film of the same name a female protagonist is introduced. She is the daughter of the man just to tie the film and novel closer together.

---> Blofeld's sister!!! ROTFLMAO
And Bond's foster sister. Will we meet her in 25?

An Intellectual Mediocrity wrote:
But it must be said the well is now dry, and all future Bond films will be without any Fleming influence at all.

Don't think so...

What do you expect? S/he's musing about that strange Solange character who is Solitaire.  roll eyes
Fleming really got me here. I was wondering why Bond wasn't sending her a note about his arrival in the U.S.. It's Solitaire. She can see into the future; so he doesn't have to send her a note. big laugh

Blunt Instrument wrote:
'An Intellectual Mediocrity'. He's not wrong.
thumbsup
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Mr. Kiss Kiss Bang Bang
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PostSubject: Re: Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights   Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights - Page 2 EmptySat Feb 02, 2019 12:02 am

We could indeed continue this this year. Virtually 2 years to the date but better late than never.

Thanks for the reminder, Hilly!
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Hilly
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PostSubject: Re: Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights   Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights - Page 2 EmptySat Feb 02, 2019 11:28 pm

No worries. Law, I didn't realise this thread had languished so long. Puts me in mind of the old forum when newbies, such as muggings here, stirred old threads and was rewarded with necromancing comments or whatever it was. colgate
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Kath
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PostSubject: Re: Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights   Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights - Page 2 EmptySun Feb 03, 2019 1:03 am

I got an email notification about a new post in this thread which was pretty much like necromancy, too. big grin

As much as I love Fleming's work I have to pass. I have decided to level one of my hobbies up and written to a publisher. That will keep me busy for a while, next to the usual work and university stuff. And learning French. And running my blog.
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PostSubject: Re: Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights   Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights - Page 2 EmptySun Feb 03, 2019 10:24 pm

That's a shame. Maybe you'll get inspired to join in once you start seeing posts.

Hilly wrote:
No worries. Law, I didn't realise this thread had languished so long. Puts me in mind of the old forum when newbies, such as muggings here, stirred old threads and was rewarded with necromancing comments or whatever it was.  colgate

Indeed... Two years exactly. I never quite understood why one couldn't revive an old thread if someone could add to the discussion. Why keep them at all then? The 'BUMP' posts seemed like attention-seeking, however.
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PostSubject: Re: Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights   Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights - Page 2 EmptyMon Feb 04, 2019 10:04 pm

On this forum anyone dredging up an old post to add to the discussion is an absolute must. colgate
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PostSubject: Re: Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights   Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights - Page 2 EmptyMon Feb 04, 2019 11:03 pm

laugh

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PostSubject: Re: Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights   Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights - Page 2 EmptyWed Apr 17, 2019 10:01 am

Did The Property Of A Lady in one sitting. Might very well be my favourite short story (until I give TLD a reread). I love reading about the inner workings of Fleming's MI6, with the day-to-day activities of Bond, the Purple Cipher (nice bit of bizarre in that title, along with the art expert's flamboyance - reminiscent of Silva - and the "kids" cyanide water pistol Bond discovers), and the geography of Bond's office connected to Goodnight's, the Comms room, etc.

Whether a true comparison or not, Bond and M's dynamic evoked feelings of Bond and M's in TWINE. No real personal favour, just Bond realising that he had to go along with M's charade of being in the "Research Section" maybe to relieve his own tedium and his "saving" M from Fanshawe and his ostentation... Also, of Bond and M's exchanged glances re: Koskov's behaviour.

For the first time I found myself visualising Sir Rog, when he outlined his plan to M. Hugely reminiscent of his detailaing his thinking behind deceiving Hai Fat in TMWTGG. Flashes of Brosnan in his office, too and Connery wanting to kiss Moneypenny's Goodnight's neck as he headed to M's office.

A good portion still to be used in a future Bond film. I'd be happy for a lean 1.5 hour movie centred on exposing a mole in the organisation with thrills derived from wits instead of chases. Won't happen, but one can hope. Couldn't be the Soviets, obviously. Who are the villains these day where such a story could work? I suppose Russia could still be. Unless it's Spectre. But do we want continued use of Spectre post-Daniel Craig?

I digress.
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PostSubject: Re: Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights   Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights - Page 2 EmptySat Apr 20, 2019 12:48 am

Following on: The Living Daylights.

The shooting range scene and the opinions the others made of Bond about his early appointment, his car, his shooting, etc. is classic Bond. Perfectly encapsulates the character, the world, the dream of a man wanting to be like him so succinctly.

The most delightful aspect of this is visualising Bond venture into a divided Germany. His killing of time within those three days I find, strangely, rather cinematic. Of course it might be too leisurely to see something like that in the films... I think CJB said that this short story is Fleming at his best - it manages to capture what James Bond is about in such a small window and I'd have to agree with that assessment.

Next up, 007 in New York.

Bit disappointed in this since we don't ever meet Solange. Bond's musings of New York, however, is fantastic. And I like the detail of M wanting to do good by one of his dutiful staff. Nice little bit of character for the usually crusty M in a ten page story.

And Scrambled Eggs 'James Bond'... Photographed and sent to a friend who was recently wondering how to make them properly. You don't read James Bond for nothing!
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PostSubject: Re: Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights   Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights - Page 2 EmptySat Apr 20, 2019 11:25 am

Gotta love Bond's Berlin contact saying that he's going to report him for drinking on the job, and Bond's response that he's not the one who might have to kill someone in cold blood before the day's out.
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PostSubject: Re: Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights   Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights - Page 2 EmptySun Apr 21, 2019 2:10 pm

Indeed. And you can definitely see Thomas Wheatley saying it.

Surprised such a moment hasn't been realised on screen yet. We've seen Bond have a drink after a killing but not quite beforehand to relax himself. Though you could probably count Bond waiting for an assassin sent by Carver in TND, only for Paris to show up.
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PostSubject: Re: Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights   Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights - Page 2 EmptySun Apr 21, 2019 10:33 pm

As I've said before, always liked the line about being Bond close to treachery when he's in that department next to the woman and Fleming's description of her. Fleming was quite capable of being delightfully wicked in his way.

I saw someone remark that Lazenby's Bond is one moment when Bond knocks back a drink (in his office) when sulking but as for him drinking before a killing, I think Dalton could've carried it. Dalton was someone who said Bond was sometimes a pill-popper in the books to get through a mission (Benzedrine, latterly, amphetamines). Could see a Dalton Bond nursing a stiff drink in Bratislava with the rifle on the table next to him just before Saunders walks in.
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PostSubject: Re: Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights   Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights - Page 2 EmptyMon Apr 22, 2019 12:08 am

The ugliness dripped off the page in his description of Maria without resorting to the 'toad-like' comparisons, which I appreciated. After Rosa and Irma, it's refreshing to read about different ways a villain manifests itself-- and good to adapt for a film without appearing same-same.

You've just reminded me, I do like that Bond has a sense of humour. Not only does he "joke" with Maria's juniors, but he says he was rather disappointed by the proceedings at Sotheby's with the lack of a slamming hammer and all that.

Maybe the Lazzers was planning on unloading his walther on M. wink  But nice little moment that. I agree, I could easily see Dalton telling Saunders to shove his rulebook. Would have been interesting to see Dalton at some point popping a pill in order to take down drug lord Sanchez, actually. Nice bit of irony.
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PostSubject: Re: Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights   Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights - Page 2 EmptyMon Apr 22, 2019 11:56 am

Silva makes reference to Bond being 'barely held together with pills and booze', although I took the pills in that case to be painkillers what with him having recently been shot twice in the same day.
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PostSubject: Re: Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights   Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights - Page 2 EmptyMon Apr 22, 2019 1:50 pm

Blunt Instrument wrote:
Silva makes reference to Bond being 'barely held together with pills and booze', although I took the pills in that case to be painkillers what with him having recently been shot twice in the same day.

Yeah. Some pill popping wouldn't seem out of place in SF, actually.

Similarly, as we mentioned a while back, Bond's doctor mentioning that his "liver's not too good" in DAD. "Definitely him, then!" Quite like that.
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PostSubject: Re: Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights   Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights - Page 2 EmptySun Apr 28, 2019 4:16 am

What comes across most in OP and TLD is Fleming's increasing moroseness I think. Bond is affected and in a more reflecting mood and darker place.

I need to get NY in book form. Property is in the Signet paperback reprint but NY wasn't included until modern runs.
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PostSubject: Re: Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights   Bond and Beyond Short Story Discussion: Octopussy and The Living Daylights - Page 2 EmptySun Apr 28, 2019 9:32 am

He does seem perkier in POAL but I wouldn't say he's morose in TLD. Of course, when he bickers about having to be the one to kill the sniper, I'd absolutely agree, but then there's his interest in that terrible book and how he wants to see how it ends.
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