How is the "fetch my shoes" line, racist like people say?
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ironpony Q Branch
Posts : 501 Member Since : 2017-11-10
Subject: How is the "fetch my shoes" line, racist like people say? Sun May 13, 2018 6:52 am
A lot of people have said that when Bond says this to quarrel, it shows that Bond is racist, but I didn't see this as the case at all.
The villains were after Bond, so Bond told Quarrel to fetch his shoes, so he could get the heck out of there, and he was just being curt, I thought.
It feels like that maybe a lot of modern day fans were just nitpicking like they were looking extra hard to find anything that could have seemed racist for the time, and were reaching. Unless I am wrong?
Blunt Instrument 00 Agent
Posts : 6210 Member Since : 2011-03-20 Location : Propping up the bar
Subject: Re: How is the "fetch my shoes" line, racist like people say? Sun May 13, 2018 4:10 pm
A hint of Bond treating Quarrel like a servant is arguably discernible in it.
ironpony Q Branch
Posts : 501 Member Since : 2017-11-10
Subject: Re: How is the "fetch my shoes" line, racist like people say? Sun May 13, 2018 9:14 pm
But I feel that in times of danger, people do tell other people what to do, and it's not meant to be a servant thing.
That's like that Riggs is racist in Lethal Weapon cause during the car chase, Riggs wants to drive and he tells Murtaugh to 'move over!'. That doesn't mean that he is racist, he is just all stressed out and and adrenaline fueled, and told him do something that will help the situation.
That's I felt Bond was in this situation.
bitchcraft Potential 00 Agent
Posts : 3372 Member Since : 2011-03-28 Location : I know........I know
Subject: Re: How is the "fetch my shoes" line, racist like people say? Sun May 13, 2018 10:41 pm
These days, anything is racist and there's always some idiot who's offended.
I'm sure this post is racist and offensive too
AMC Hornet Head of Station
Posts : 1175 Member Since : 2011-08-18 Location : Station 'C' - Canada
Subject: Re: How is the "fetch my shoes" line, racist like people say? Mon May 14, 2018 4:32 am
Quarrel started out a tough, capable and good-natured character (John Kitzmiller was even billed as 'the negro star of Dr. No" when it played in the American south). It's unfortunate that he was turned into a superstitious, eye-rolling, rum-snorting stereotype as he and Bond approached Crab Key (on account of the 'dragon,' presumably).
He still showed courage, resourcefulness and a bit of humour (hunkering down next to Bond to shoot at the dragon, until Bond's glare reminds him that they were supposed to spread out). His death was awful and ultimately as much Bond's fault as Dr. No's.
That's why the line "fetch my shoes" sticks in the craw of so many. Bond doesn't treat visible minorities that way - he treats women that way. Honey should have dashed off after his footwear, not Quarrel ("all right, all right!").
The objection and resentment isn't just about being P.C., it's about expecting better of our hero and of the people who write his dialogue. At least this lapse never occurred again - Bond got on fine with Pinder, Strutter, Quarrel Jr and now Felix Leiter (while still challenging women to tolerate him).
Frankly, I'm surprised that I haven't read more criticism and accusations of racism leveled at Bond for his treatment of Molloka & Obanno and various other African characters in CR. One can argue (like Arnold in True Lies) "yeah, but they were all bad," but that in itself is an admission of racist writing.
Criticism of LALD includes how Bond - as the Mighty Whitey - rolls into Harlem and the Caribbean and sorts out all these black troublemakers as if 'keeping them in their place' is the primary - or at least underlying - point of his mission. I don't see it that way (which is admittedly easy for me, being a honky meself), but I can understand how and why others do.
But, like so much else in the early films (eg: "Lesbian, eh? Not once I'm through with you!") the treatment of Quarrel was typical of its time, and went unnoticed in that time. Who could have predicted how much times would change? (A: cue Dr. King and "I Have a Dream.")
So like I said earlier, the line could be redubbed (eg: "where are my shoes?"), but then those who support textual (not racial) purity would be up in arms over the revisionism. I suppose I'd rather just leave the sequence as it is and let it keep its place in the pantheon of cringe-worthy moments that includes "Japanese proverb say..."; "Gawddam little brown water hogs!"; "A woman!"; "That'll keep you in curry for a few weeks"; "Especially when you're bad" and all those times Bond slaps his leading lady around.
Last edited by AMC Hornet on Tue May 15, 2018 12:01 am; edited 1 time in total
ironpony Q Branch
Posts : 501 Member Since : 2017-11-10
Subject: Re: How is the "fetch my shoes" line, racist like people say? Mon May 14, 2018 6:26 am
But why is it that people have picked up on racism here, but all these other movies are never accused of it, like how I mentioned Lethal Weapon II as an example?
In The Negotiator (1998), Kevin Spacy also gives Samuel L. Jackson orders to in certain scenes, and no one accused that character as being racist.
On a sidenote, is Bond slapping the leading lady around in From Russia With Love, really that politically incorrect with today's audience? He was trying to get information out of her, and in shows of today like 24 for example, Jack Bauer shot a woman in the leg to get info, so what makes Bond so bad in comparison?
Blunt Instrument 00 Agent
Posts : 6210 Member Since : 2011-03-20 Location : Propping up the bar
Subject: Re: How is the "fetch my shoes" line, racist like people say? Mon May 14, 2018 7:46 pm
AMC Hornet wrote:
Quarrel started out a tough, capable and good-natured character (John Kitzmiller was even billed as 'the negro star of Dr. No" when it played in the American south). It's unfortunate that he was turned into a superstitious, eye-rolling, rum-snorting stereotype as he and Bond approached Crab Key (on account of the 'dragon,' presumably).
He still showed courage, resourcefulness and a bit of humour (hunkering down next to Bond to shoot at the dragon, until Bond's glare reminds him that they were supposed to spread out). His death was awful and ultimately as much Bond's fault as Dr. No's.
That's why the line "fetch my shoes" sticks in the craw of so many. Bond doesn't treat visible minorities that way - he treats women that way. Honey should have dashed off after his footwear, not Quarrel ("all right, all right!").
The objection and resentment isn't just about being P.C., it's about expecting better of our hero and of the people who write his dialogue. At least this lapse never occurred again - Bond got on fine with Pinder, Strutter, Quarrel Jr and now Felix Leiter (while still challenging women to tolerate him).
Frankly, I'm surprised that I haven't read more criticism and accusations of racism leveled at Bond for his treatment of Molloka & Obanno and various other African characters in CR. One can argue (like Arnold in True Lies) "yeah, but they were all bad," but that in itself is an admission of racist writing.
Criticism of LALD includes how Bond - as the Mighty Whitey - rolls into Harlem and the Caribbean and sorts out all these black troublemakers as if 'keeping them in their place' is the primary - or at least underlying - point of his mission. I don't see it that way (which is admittedly easy for me, being a honky meself), but I can understand how and why others do.
But, like so much else in the early films (eg: "Lesbian, eh? Not once I'm through with you!") the treatment of Quarrel was typical of its time, and went unnoticed in that time. Who could have predicted how much times would change? (A: cue Dr. King and "I Have a Dream.")
So like I said earlier, the line could be redubbed (eg: "where are my shoes?"), but then those who support textual (not racial) purity would be up in arms over the revisionism. I suppose I'd rather just leave the sequence as it is and let it keep its place in the pantheon of cringe-worthy moments that includes "Japanese proverb say..."; "Gawddam little brown water hogs!"; "A woman!"; "That'll keep you in curry for a few weeks"; "Especially when you're bad" and all those times Bond slaps his leading lady around.
Strutter berating Bond's 'clever disguise' in LALD is a good point well made .
Hilly Administrator
Posts : 8059 Member Since : 2010-05-13
Subject: Re: How is the "fetch my shoes" line, racist like people say? Mon May 14, 2018 10:25 pm
Every time I hear Harlem mentioned in something or other, I always think of Roger Moore sticking out like a cue-ball.
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Subject: Re: How is the "fetch my shoes" line, racist like people say? Tue May 15, 2018 3:19 pm
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Last edited by Erica Ambler on Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
Strangways&Quarrel 'R'
Posts : 353 Member Since : 2013-03-26 Location : Florida
Subject: Re: How is the "fetch my shoes" line, racist like people say? Tue May 15, 2018 7:17 pm
ironpony wrote:
But why is it that people have picked up on racism here, but all these other movies are never accused of it, like how I mentioned Lethal Weapon II as an example?
In The Negotiator (1998), Kevin Spacy also gives Samuel L. Jackson orders to in certain scenes, and no one accused that character as being racist.
On a sidenote, is Bond slapping the leading lady around in From Russia With Love, really that politically incorrect with today's audience? He was trying to get information out of her, and in shows of today like 24 for example, Jack Bauer shot a woman in the leg to get info, so what makes Bond so bad in comparison?
James Bond is just an easier and meatier target for those who feel like it's their moral duty to be constantly outraged. James Bond is huge compared to some of those films which are relatively more forgotten compared to Bond (even 24 seems to be somewhat forgotten already) and garner more clicks on their blogs and hack news sites (and for the odd male engaging in the whining, a gaggle of easy college girls for the bedding). Bill Maher covered these types a few weeks back over Molly Ringwald complaining about The Breakfast Club and the controversy over Apu from The Simpsons.
Essentially they aren't matured enough to understand that times and attitude are ever constantly changing and that back then people didn't even think something like Bond telling Quarrel to fetch his shoes would be seen as an unholy act of barbarism fifty years later. Eventually they will be the ones who are cringed at but they don't have the foresight or humility to understand that. I remember ten or fifteen years ago if a college student were to adopt something like dreadlocks or eat oddball foreign foods they were considered cultured but now that's considered cultural appropriation. Eventually when aliens decide to invade Earth you just know a bunch of whining busybodies are going to be going on about how insensitive our portrayal of aliens have been over the years with Independence Day being considered the most racist film ever and the "human washing" of alien roles that should have rightfully had actual aliens in those leads instead of humans pretending to be aliens. Like Bill said we never stop evolving as a species but I think they just don't understand that because they really aren't being considerate of other people but are focused on making themselves feel better which in itself is a form of privileged selfishness.
Guest Guest
Subject: Re: How is the "fetch my shoes" line, racist like people say? Tue May 15, 2018 8:09 pm
v
Last edited by Erica Ambler on Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
Hilly Administrator
Posts : 8059 Member Since : 2010-05-13
Subject: Re: How is the "fetch my shoes" line, racist like people say? Tue May 15, 2018 8:52 pm
Soon, Ambler, soon.
Mr. Kiss Kiss Bang Bang 00 Agent
Posts : 8477 Member Since : 2010-05-12 Location : Strawberry Fields
Subject: Re: How is the "fetch my shoes" line, racist like people say? Tue May 15, 2018 10:57 pm
Strangways&Quarrel wrote:
ironpony wrote:
But why is it that people have picked up on racism here, but all these other movies are never accused of it, like how I mentioned Lethal Weapon II as an example?
In The Negotiator (1998), Kevin Spacy also gives Samuel L. Jackson orders to in certain scenes, and no one accused that character as being racist.
On a sidenote, is Bond slapping the leading lady around in From Russia With Love, really that politically incorrect with today's audience? He was trying to get information out of her, and in shows of today like 24 for example, Jack Bauer shot a woman in the leg to get info, so what makes Bond so bad in comparison?
James Bond is just an easier and meatier target for those who feel like it's their moral duty to be constantly outraged. James Bond is huge compared to some of those films which are relatively more forgotten compared to Bond (even 24 seems to be somewhat forgotten already) and garner more clicks on their blogs and hack news sites (and for the odd male engaging in the whining, a gaggle of easy college girls for the bedding). Bill Maher covered these types a few weeks back over Molly Ringwald complaining about The Breakfast Club and the controversy over Apu from The Simpsons.
Essentially they aren't matured enough to understand that times and attitude are ever constantly changing and that back then people didn't even think something like Bond telling Quarrel to fetch his shoes would be seen as an unholy act of barbarism fifty years later. Eventually they will be the ones who are cringed at but they don't have the foresight or humility to understand that. I remember ten or fifteen years ago if a college student were to adopt something like dreadlocks or eat oddball foreign foods they were considered cultured but now that's considered cultural appropriation. Eventually when aliens decide to invade Earth you just know a bunch of whining busybodies are going to be going on about how insensitive our portrayal of aliens have been over the years with Independence Day being considered the most racist film ever and the "human washing" of alien roles that should have rightfully had actual aliens in those leads instead of humans pretending to be aliens. Like Bill said we never stop evolving as a species but I think they just don't understand that because they really aren't being considerate of other people but are focused on making themselves feel better which in itself is a form of privileged selfishness.
Great post, and great video. Refreshing to hear a figure in the media with such a perspective.
bitchcraft Potential 00 Agent
Posts : 3372 Member Since : 2011-03-28 Location : I know........I know
Subject: Re: How is the "fetch my shoes" line, racist like people say? Wed May 16, 2018 1:28 am
Bill Maher is a piece of HBO trash..
CJB 00 Agent
Posts : 5498 Member Since : 2011-03-14 Location : 'Straya
Subject: Re: How is the "fetch my shoes" line, racist like people say? Wed May 16, 2018 9:18 am
I watched that Maher video a few weeks back and, sure, it's a more balanced perspective than those of SJWs. However, the crux as I remember is that we shouldn't judge past works by today's standards but what that point fails to address is who gets to decide what today's standards are? Why is an Indian immigrant in a convenience store fine by 1998 standards but racist by 2018 standards? Why is a move with straight white cisgendered teenagers any worse now than it was in the 80's (that was Ringworm's problem with the Brekkie Club wasn't it)? Basically, why should I accept the narrative that - even if I don't seek to tear down "problematic" works from bygone years - our value system is progressing to something better than what's existed in the past?
Salomé Potential 00 Agent
Posts : 3303 Member Since : 2011-03-17
Subject: Re: How is the "fetch my shoes" line, racist like people say? Wed May 16, 2018 9:35 am
We now live in a world in which Lukas Dhont's "Girl" is criticized because his much lauded debut feature film about a pre-op trans girl who aspires to become a great ballerina had a non-trans boy in the lead role. Like pre-op trans girls with years of ballet training and acting talent are in great abundance.
Guest Guest
Subject: Re: How is the "fetch my shoes" line, racist like people say? Wed May 16, 2018 9:51 am
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Last edited by Erica Ambler on Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
hegottheboot Head of Station
Posts : 1758 Member Since : 2012-01-08 Location : TN, USA
Subject: Re: How is the "fetch my shoes" line, racist like people say? Fri May 18, 2018 12:59 am
I never noticed it until a Bond book made a quick remark about the line causing the writers to wince. Upon great reflection I realized that it is the offhand quick delivery of the line that causes a negative overbearing quality that people pick up on that is wholly unintentional. If anything Bond is in more of his military mode at this point making the assault in enemy territory and the entirety of their relationship Quarrel refers to 007 as Captain-invoking a measure of respect, common interests and command.
The racist thing is the terminology used in the southern US posters and ad campaigns that can be seen in Nourmand's 007 Posters book. This was common practice at the time and damn shameful.
All in all, the whole thing would be avoided if there was a different line reading or Sean added a will you on the end much as he does in the decontamination chamber when speaking to the guards about the clothes and handcuffs. The shoes line is the splitting of split hairs.
I'll fight this crap anytime. This is really digging for nothing and if anything they should go after the 2006 to present blunt instrument.
You don’t know me Universal Exports
Posts : 81 Member Since : 2019-03-09
Subject: Re: How is the "fetch my shoes" line, racist like people say? Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:25 pm
My question is, why is it that line in particular that is offensive? Bond orders Quarrel around with the same tone many times: he tells Quarrel to hold his watch, and cover the boat as well. Is there something especially significant about fetching shoes? I guess it seems more demeaning than the other times.
Mr. Kiss Kiss Bang Bang 00 Agent
Posts : 8477 Member Since : 2010-05-12 Location : Strawberry Fields
Subject: Re: How is the "fetch my shoes" line, racist like people say? Sun Jun 16, 2019 1:32 am
I think the use of the word 'fetch' is what people can't handle. Alludes to a dog and suggests Quarrel is Bond's slave (probably because he's black. Had he said it to white Leiter, there would be no uproar).
Funnily enough, Moneypenny's trajectory in SF is probably more offensive in terms of political correctness. No one bat's an eyelid there. But maybe that's me trying to mock the current climate of "outrage" and feelings of being "triggered". For all Babs' virtue signalling, she has signed off on some questionable choices, such as the above Moneypenny storyline to re-hiring a rapist to work on a Bond script, which is frankly disgusting.
ironpony Q Branch
Posts : 501 Member Since : 2017-11-10
Subject: Re: How is the "fetch my shoes" line, racist like people say? Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:59 pm
Oh okay, so if he had said 'grab my shoes' instead that that would have made all the difference with viewers?
Phantom Commander Head of Station
Posts : 2284 Member Since : 2023-01-17 Location : A shallow bay
Subject: Re: How is the "fetch my shoes" line, racist like people say? Thu Apr 13, 2023 4:29 am
ironpony wrote:
A lot of people have said that when Bond says this to quarrel, it shows that Bond is racist, but I didn't see this as the case at all.
The villains were after Bond, so Bond told Quarrel to fetch his shoes, so he could get the heck out of there, and he was just being curt, I thought.
It feels like that maybe a lot of modern day fans were just nitpicking like they were looking extra hard to find anything that could have seemed racist for the time, and were reaching. Unless I am wrong?
You are not wrong. Singling out that line is extremely far fetched. The line does not show any prejudice at all, but complaining about it surely does.
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Subject: Re: How is the "fetch my shoes" line, racist like people say?
How is the "fetch my shoes" line, racist like people say?