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 Is J.W. Pepper a racist like some fans say?

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Makeshift Python
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PostSubject: Re: Is J.W. Pepper a racist like some fans say?   Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:40 am

Pepper may be a Democrat, but I wouldn't associate him with Nazis.
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Salomé
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PostSubject: Re: Is J.W. Pepper a racist like some fans say?   Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:53 am

Erica Ambler wrote:
Salomé wrote:
Erica Ambler wrote:

But why not use Zyklon B like your National Socialist colleagues?

By no serious definition nor historical perspective should the Nazis be considered left-wing extremism.

Part of the motivation for the night of the long knives was to cement the close ties between the Nazi elite and the pre-existing (powerful and wealthy) German elite and the captains of industry.

This was one of the main reasons Hitler wanted Röhm gone, because he was perceived as a threat to the upper crust with his oft-expressed desire for wealth redistribution.

Thanks for womansplaining that to me, but the clue is in the name: Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei or National Socialist German Workers' Party.

Hence why they had the leadership of the German Communist party largely wiped through exile or murder out after assuming power. ROTFLMAO
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Erica Ambler
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PostSubject: Re: Is J.W. Pepper a racist like some fans say?   Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:07 am

Salomé wrote:
Hence why they had the leadership of the German Communist party largely wiped through exile or murder out after assuming power. ROTFLMAO

Ah,  I'm not suggesting the Nazis were Marxists - far too Jewish for them. But fascism and socialism have 99% dna in common; the differences between all authoritarian creeds are skin-deep.
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AMC Hornet
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PostSubject: Re: Is J.W. Pepper a racist like some fans say?   Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:05 am

My question is, who are the fans who say Pepper isn't a racist?
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FieldsMan
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PostSubject: Re: Is J.W. Pepper a racist like some fans say?   Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:45 am

Blunt Instrument wrote:
Ah now, Strutter's on the side of the angels.  

I searched the web to see if he passed, but then realised you were referring to him not being a traitor.

And speaking of, Lon Satton is 89.
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Blunt Instrument
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PostSubject: Re: Is J.W. Pepper a racist like some fans say?   Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:37 am

Heh, yes. It was possibly an old-fashioned way of phrasing it on my part.

His berating of Bond for his 'clever disguise' is a LALD highlight.
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Makeshift Python
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PostSubject: Re: Is J.W. Pepper a racist like some fans say?   Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:05 am

Blunt Instrument wrote:
Heh, yes. It was possibly an old-fashioned way of phrasing it on my part.

His berating of Bond for his 'clever disguise' is a LALD highlight.

It's one of the nice subversions Mankiewicz did on his adaptation of LALD that I wish Strutter had lot more to do afterward than just get killed by some midget at a parade. Maybe between him and Leiter there were just too many CIA guys for Bond to have expositions with.
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PostSubject: Re: Is J.W. Pepper a racist like some fans say?   Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:11 am

They needed at least one black character who wasn't a villain to dispel the notion that their attitude was that all black people are evil - and that's just how many we got.
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PostSubject: Re: Is J.W. Pepper a racist like some fans say?   Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:03 am

Don’t forget Quarrel (Jr.)! Though they had already done that subversion with that character in DR. NO.
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FieldsMan
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PostSubject: Re: Is J.W. Pepper a racist like some fans say?   Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:28 am

You'd think after Quarrel and Pinder, and a myriad of white villains before LALD, that people would have the brains to realise it's less to do with race and more to do with good vs evil.
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hegottheboot
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PostSubject: Re: Is J.W. Pepper a racist like some fans say?   Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:01 pm

Glad someone mentioned Strutter. And of course it is only implied he was taken out by the jazz funeral hit team.

I do think the whole island culture/social hierarchy gets overlooked by many in the film which was a part of Fleming's writing just as we see the parts of NYC roughly as they were and as the novel tackled the 50's version. I also don't think Fleming intended it to be seen that he was saying all people were involved in the conspiracy/criminal world but that at least most would understand the voodoo connotations that Mr. Big invoked and of course that is why he invoked them in the first place. Then the ones that are involved go about in ways to make it seem as if the day to day activities were completely normal. I love how Mank did this in the film by having the car stalking scene show people in various places and guises through Harlem communicate secretly over the radio linkup indicating that they were lookouts and spies of sorts just as Fleming did. Then add to this by intercutting Strutter presumably also on the same channel so that his appearance in the alley is one of surprise when he is revealed as a CIA man.


As for Rosie she is sort of in the DAF Tiffany useless bimbo mold which is a striking way to make her not seem like a double agent. Then when she is shown to be such we can see how she disarmed Baines which led to his doom and how Bond is too strong to be in for the same kind of aid. Solitaire's warning of the upside down Queen of Cups is the film's version of her latching onto Bond as her means of escape even though in the film she merely feels some sort of unspeakable pull towards him through the cards.
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PostSubject: Re: Is J.W. Pepper a racist like some fans say?   Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:14 pm

...which was completely missing in the film's narrative. You would have to have read the novel to suspect that Solitaire sent him the Queen of Cups card, knowing intuitively that he was nearby in San Monique - not a word in the script (not even "who do you think sent that bullet to London with your number on it? I did"). So why was she so surprised and upset when he turns up in her house?
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PostSubject: Re: Is J.W. Pepper a racist like some fans say?   Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:50 am

Erica Ambler wrote:


The way the 'educated' Left repeatedly commits genocide - of tens of millions - throughout the 20th century yet still manages to maintain they’re the good guys is one of the more interesting aspects of human stupidity and delusion. ROTFLMAO

Was talking to law student at a party the other night who insisted that there has never been a true communist state, and that all atrocities made in the name of communism can't be attributed to its fundamental ideology. It was 2am, so I was too inebriated to continue going around in circles, though maybe all the wine helped laugh off the insanity of the conversation.
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PostSubject: Re: Is J.W. Pepper a racist like some fans say?   Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:17 pm

You should have at least reminded him of one of the famous Karl Marx quotes "Let's all lounge around and kill white people."

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PostSubject: Re: Is J.W. Pepper a racist like some fans say?   Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:09 pm

FieldsMan wrote:

Was talking to law student at a party the other night who insisted that there has never been a true communist state, and that all atrocities made in the name of communism can't be attributed to its fundamental ideology.

They're half-right. In Marxian theology, the socialist (or dictatorship of the proletariat) stage of development is meant to progress towards stateless communism. So technically, communist state is a contradiction in terms (albeit Communist state, meaning a state run by a party labelled Communist with a capital 'C', you'd argue is not).

Skirting around technicalities to defend a heap of shit is part and parcel of being a lawyer, so no surprises there.
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PostSubject: Re: Is J.W. Pepper a racist like some fans say?   Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:57 pm

AMC Hornet wrote:
...which was completely missing in the film's narrative. You would have to have read the novel to suspect that Solitaire sent him the Queen of Cups card, knowing intuitively that he was nearby in San Monique - not a word in the script (not even "who do you think sent that bullet to London with your number on it? I did"). So why was she so surprised and upset when he turns up in her house?

The film has always seemed pretty obvious to me on that front and it was long before I read the novel. Who else could have sent it and why? She sees everything Bond does through the cards and would have some idea of Rosie as an agent of Kananga. Solitaire is intrigued by what the cards seem to be saying with The Lovers turning up and foretells that Bond will have some sort of impact on if not her life her situation as Kananga's kept fortune teller. So she sends the card anonymously if not believing Bond as her savior, merely only in a sense of fair play or trying to interpret what the cards are saying.

Then again I could analyze LALD more than some could interpret Shakespeare.
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PostSubject: Re: Is J.W. Pepper a racist like some fans say?   Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:17 pm

Me too, but this is the kind of analysis that takes years to come up with. In this instance, I think Mank (or the editor) was crediting the audiences of the time with a little too much omniscience.
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PostSubject: Re: Is J.W. Pepper a racist like some fans say?   Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:58 am

CJB wrote:
FieldsMan wrote:

Was talking to law student at a party the other night who insisted that there has never been a true communist state, and that all atrocities made in the name of communism can't be attributed to its fundamental ideology.

They're half-right. In Marxian theology, the socialist (or dictatorship of the proletariat) stage of development is meant to progress towards stateless communism. So technically, communist state is a contradiction in terms (albeit Communist state, meaning a state run by a party labelled Communist with a capital 'C', you'd argue is not).

Skirting around technicalities to defend a heap of shit is part and parcel of being a lawyer, so no surprises there.

Yeah. But considering the socialist stage of development is part of a Communist state's progression to stateless communism, genocide still occurred because of communist ideology.

AMC wrote:
Me too, but this is the kind of analysis that takes years to come up with. In this instance, I think Mank (or the editor) was crediting the audiences of the time with a little too much omniscience.

blink

Even audiences on LSD in '73 would have surmised that Solitaire sent the card. It's that obvious.
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PostSubject: Re: Is J.W. Pepper a racist like some fans say?   Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:47 am

So that was my problem! I was only 14 when LALD came out.
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PostSubject: Re: Is J.W. Pepper a racist like some fans say?   Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:40 pm

I saw it at about 3 and a 1/2. All I knew then was that she was the only one playing with tarot cards.
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PostSubject: Re: Is J.W. Pepper a racist like some fans say?   Sat Oct 27, 2018 3:20 am

hegottheboot wrote:
I saw it at about 3 and a 1/2. All I knew then was that she was the only one playing with tarot cards.

Were you on acid, too, at that age?

At 3 & 1/2, I would have been terrified by the voodoo scenes - and even the titles (I was a timid kid).
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PostSubject: Re: Is J.W. Pepper a racist like some fans say?   Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:49 pm

I saw TLD as a foetus and even I knew that Koskov was crooked from the start.
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PostSubject: Re: Is J.W. Pepper a racist like some fans say?   Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:24 am

Hah, no. I loved the voodoo flair which to me only made the action seem all the more earth shatteringly amazing-this coupled with the more realistic tone and the fact that portions were in the US.

The voodoo is treated rather respectfully and to this day I find the whole dance area and musical composition completely iconic. I think arguably the only other film to treat voodoo properly is the Lewton horror masterwork I WALKED WITH A ZOMBIE.

Odd...I too felt the same when first seeing TLD. I never bought Koskov's story and in many ways I don't think the audience is meant to as Bond himself is totally unconvinced by the testimony.
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