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PostSubject: Bond on 4K/UHD   Bond on 4K/UHD EmptySat Oct 13, 2018 10:02 pm

First post so I apologize if this has been beat to death already. I did try to search here but apparently "4K" and "UHD" are unsearchable terms.

Internet searching says iTunes is the only place to find Bond flicks in 4K. With the exception of Spectre which may have been available in UHD on Amazon Video for a while, (but now only in HD)

The movies on iTunes have mixed reviews. Some say they are just a halfhearted attempt at an upscale. Plus I'm not a big iTunes fan

Sooo... What's the buzz? Is there a 4K Bond box set collection on the horizon?
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PostSubject: Re: Bond on 4K/UHD   Bond on 4K/UHD EmptySun Oct 14, 2018 12:35 am

Welcome Adam T.

There will probably be a release of the films in 4K or UHD as we get closer to the Bond 25 opening day to help build momentum.
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PostSubject: Re: Bond on 4K/UHD   Bond on 4K/UHD EmptyFri Oct 19, 2018 3:31 am

There have been a few 4K DCP screenings in theaters primarily in the UK of a handful of titles and it has been rumored the 4K masters have been done. The versions that popped up on Itunes are marketed as 4k but it is still unknown if they truly are or are variants of the older Lowry/MGM scans.
The first confirmed newer HD titles were presented last on Blu-ray and these included the fresher scans of YOLT, OHMSS etc that were nice but had elevated contrast. Ironically one of the last was TSWLM which seems to be the one title with a brand new master on Blu-ray and looks the best it ever has.

All 20 of the original series need problems addressed on video badly. Some are worse than others but starting in 2006 with the Lowry work the color timing went out the window along with many other issues that have never been addressed and they have lost their original sound mixes fpor the most part. Even though they were on some UE DVDs and reappeared on the Blu-rays in the USA the lossy quality and heavy compression make them laughably inferior to the prior editions and the Laserdisc releases are still the best sounding overall.

The only Blu-rays of the series I can actually watch without major complaints are TSWLM (though it is missing the original sound mix and there might be some color timing off here and there), TND, TWINE and DAD-though those look nowhere near as good as a proper modern 4K scan could have them looking.
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PostSubject: Re: Bond on 4K/UHD   Bond on 4K/UHD EmptyTue Oct 23, 2018 2:27 am

All the blu-rays should have the original sound mixes. It's only select UE DVDs that didn't feature them due to Roger Moore's commentary taking up disc space (LALD, TSWLM, FYEO).
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PostSubject: Re: Bond on 4K/UHD   Bond on 4K/UHD EmptyThu Oct 25, 2018 3:47 am

They only do in the US. Most foreign releases dropped them on some if not most.
That being said for the most part they sound laughably poor when compared to the older Laserdiscs and are nowhere near the quality they should be.

224 kbp/s is not enough for proper presentation of a film's original mix-especially since virtually everything has overzealous noise reduction, EQ and nearfield remixing applied. Most of the original series sounds fine on the Blu-rays if noticeably tamer in comparison, but several I've tried are painfully worse. The original film's BD discs have monos that sound like a bad mastering from the vinyl era when compared to an original stamper. Then there are cases like AVTAK where all the low end is removed or the original sound design is neutered or affected like FYEO and TLD.
The only ones that sound proper IMHO are the Brosnan era. And I think even they could sound better, plus DAD should have it discrete rear channels restored. (However the phantom rears in both TWINE and DAD are still there if you want to decode them out. TWINE was Dolby EX matrix anyway.) Oddly enough TWINE has such a bland mix that still annoys me. I remember it sounded great in the theater but never does in my home theater no matter if it's DVD, UE DVD or BD.

At least Goldeneye and TND sound as good as prior releases, though I give the edge to the DTS Laserdiscs.

This is what happens when you go down the rabbit hole of 007 on video. The only format I haven't done comparisons with is Beta and that may soon change.
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PostSubject: Re: Bond on 4K/UHD   Bond on 4K/UHD EmptyThu Oct 25, 2018 12:38 pm

hegottheboot wrote:
The only format I haven't done comparisons with is Beta and that may soon change.

What was the last Bond to go Beta? I'm guessing probably around the A View to a Kill era.

I remember my cousin having a Betamax when we were kids and everybody thought he was weird. But I seem to remember seeing a documentary on the pop culture of the 80's, (maybe the one that is on Netflix) and they say that Betamax was the better format but it just never caught on. Maybe it was more expensive?

Anyway, I have an old Atari 2600 if anybody wants to grab a Betamax and get together for a retro night.
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PostSubject: Re: Bond on 4K/UHD   Bond on 4K/UHD EmptyFri Oct 26, 2018 3:18 am

Apparently it went through LTK because I've seen photos of both TLD and LTK in Beta form. I've just never gotten into it because there wasn't a need nor could I ever find a working player.

I refuse to go into CED though. Ugh. I hate those caddies and it's easily the worst video format of all time. That said it does have some oddities like the TV edit of YOLT. I've seen some captures and other's CEDs when they worked and that was enough for me.
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PostSubject: Re: Bond on 4K/UHD   Bond on 4K/UHD EmptyFri Oct 26, 2018 3:27 am

I can't say I was ever bothered by the original mixes presented on BD. Having watched some Bonds on LD, I can't really tell much of a difference.

On the same subject, I did get a LD of Superman 78, and that has to be one of the worst Dolby mixes I've ever heard. Whatever issues I had with the 5.1 mix made in 2000, at least Williams' score soars throughout that version. From what I read the original mix suffered a lot of issues due to being handled by people who did not know what to make of the Dolby method as it was relatively new.
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PostSubject: Re: Bond on 4K/UHD   Bond on 4K/UHD EmptyWed Jul 24, 2019 3:30 am

So it looks like for 4K transfer for AVTAK fixed a minor effect that Lowry on UE DVD and blu-ray meddled with. Right before Bond is awakened by a tremor, there's a shot of the exterior of Stacy's house. After the camera zooms in on the house the frame starts to shake around. Lowry mistakenly had the shot stabilized so there's no tremor effect other than a shot of chandelier shaking.

I had been acquiring all of the Bond films on 4K via iTunes and had mostly been testing to see how it looked. I skipped straight to the scene just to see if the Lowry meddling had carried over on 4K. Thankfully not. It's got nice grain, but compared to other contemporary films of the 80s the John Glen films always looked kinda dull, aside from TLD.

Another bit that I noticed was fixed was YOLT when Bond is riding with Aki (after leaving the sumo match). On the UE DVD and blu-ray the compositing looks much more obvious, with everyone in front of the bluescreen not matching in true blacks with the background plate. In the 4K version the black levels match better so the bluescreen effect looks seamless, at least as good as it can for 1960s filmmaking.
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PostSubject: Re: Bond on 4K/UHD   Bond on 4K/UHD EmptyThu Jul 25, 2019 4:00 am

The letterbox Laserdisc of Superman I has the original 70mm mix which is the best track for the film and DESTROYS the truly pitiful 1978 Dolby Stereo. I've even seen a vintage print and even in a theater the Dolby Stereo mix is just so puny it feels mono-ish. Whoever did this particular track in 78 was asleep at the desk or something. They also did a split surround mix for 70mm but chickened out and thus Apocalypse Now was the first to release in that form a year later.
Fortunately WB finally reissued the 70mm mix on the 4K disc in lossy 5.1.

Holy crap they fixed the tremor camera shake!!!!!!! I thought that would never be addressed! I've been waiting for the 4K discs to arrive as I don't usually go for downloads and couldn't tell if these were all truly the new masters for everything. Hopefully it should look a lot better because despite their more sedate appearance all the prints and trailers I've seen for the 80's films look far more alive than the video editions.
Is the AVTAK PTS uncropped on the 4K? For some reason the Lowry version heavily cropped it on all four sides. If you pop in the old SE DVD it's really noticeable how much was cropped.

They had newer masters for some of the later Blu-ray waves of releases and so YOLT was an improvement over the Lowry crap on the UE DVD. OHMSS was another that was spiffed up but sadly was far too contrasty. TB seems to have rolled back to a preLowry tinkering source as there is color fluctuation and some damage in the HD master not on the Lowry UEDVD.

Ironically the best transfer of the lot on disc to date is the only one I think was full on modern 4K done by Fox and that is the Blu-ray of TSWLM which prior to that was only from the old video master and Lowry's version was a godawful mess of that same old master.

MP-while the lossy original audios are at least present on the US Blu-rays which is still to date uncommon for most films these days-it is VERY rare for any of them to sound as good as older releases because of the overzealous reprocessing of audio for video releases. I've done tons of comparisons and some hold up pretty well and others are woefully worse sounding due to continual tomfoolery. DN-LTK still sound best overall on LD because of this, and only GE onwards sounds great on each format.

A friend of mine has an audio comparison blog and did this video comparing the standard old MGM LD to the BD mono of FRWL and it's just plain painful: https://vimeo.com/250570472
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PostSubject: Re: Bond on 4K/UHD   Bond on 4K/UHD EmptyThu Jul 25, 2019 9:43 pm

I definitely agree TSWLM is probably the best looking one of that wave. YOLT a close second as it was a great improvement over the Lowry DVD which was too washed out and flat looking. OHMSS and DAF look good but the former almost looks like an Instagram filter was applied at times.

Goldeneye might have gotten the shortest end of the stick Lowry wise though. The restored Ultimate Edition DVD was noticeably cropped plus the colors looked pretty flat and then they fixed those problems for the Blu-ray version but then went crazy with the digital noise reduction removing most of the grain so the picture isn't as detailed as it could have been. Hopefully if they do put out Bond 4k discs then hopefully Goldeneye will be given a proper remaster this time around. Would be one thing that would get me to buy a 4k player.
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PostSubject: Re: Bond on 4K/UHD   Bond on 4K/UHD EmptySun Jul 28, 2019 8:50 pm

hegottheboot wrote:
Is the AVTAK PTS uncropped on the 4K? For some reason the Lowry version heavily cropped it on all four sides. If you pop in the old SE DVD it's really noticeable how much was cropped.

I just checked it out. Looks like it was addressed. The right side is slightly cropped compared to the SE, but it's very minor. I had to look for a screencap of the UE transfer via Screenmusings.com and WOW, I forgot how they insanely cropped it, particularly that open shot of the helicopter that had the most cropping.

So you can check that off the list of things 4K have fixed.
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PostSubject: Re: Bond on 4K/UHD   Bond on 4K/UHD EmptyMon Jul 29, 2019 11:10 am

Here's two screencaps, going with the progression from SE, to UE, to 4K. My captures of 4K were done just on 720, as that's the resolution of my monitor and I'm only trying to demonstrate the differences in the general look between transfers.


SE DVD 1999
Bond on 4K/UHD Vlcsna10


UE DVD 2006
Bond on 4K/UHD A-view10


4K
Bond on 4K/UHD Avtak110


SE DVD 1999
Bond on 4K/UHD Vlcsna11


UE DVD 2006
Bond on 4K/UHD A-view11


4K
Bond on 4K/UHD Avtak210
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PostSubject: Re: Bond on 4K/UHD   Bond on 4K/UHD EmptyTue Jul 30, 2019 12:54 am

Do you think you'll have a greater appreciation for the look of Glen's films in 4K, MP?
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PostSubject: Re: Bond on 4K/UHD   Bond on 4K/UHD EmptyTue Jul 30, 2019 2:48 am

The 80s was probably my least favorite as far as aesthetics go for films in general, not just Glen. I dunno why, but everything, especially action movies, started to look like any episode of MacGyver and The A-Team.
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PostSubject: Re: Bond on 4K/UHD   Bond on 4K/UHD EmptyWed Jul 31, 2019 2:01 pm

Maybe action films but I wish more movies looked like those from the 80s. I wish more films were like those in the 80s in general... Rain Man, The Untouchables, The Fabulous Baker Boys, Full Metal Jacket, Dressed to Kill, Broadcast News, When Harry Met Sally...
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PostSubject: Re: Bond on 4K/UHD   Bond on 4K/UHD EmptyWed Jul 31, 2019 6:55 pm

Of what you list, the De Palma ones at least stand out because of his incredible use of the widescreen frame.
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PostSubject: Re: Bond on 4K/UHD   Bond on 4K/UHD EmptyThu Aug 01, 2019 7:05 am

I'm late but I'll throw my theory out there for when we'll get 4K versions of Bond. My theory is that for the upcoming Christmas season, they'll release the films on 4K Blu Ray. At least to me, it makes more sense to start selling them before Christmas than in Spring of next year.

They'd get more Christmas sales than Christmas 2020. I would also want to buy a 4K copy of Goldeneye on Black Friday this year with my Pierce Pop; a very Bond themed purchase then colgate
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PostSubject: Re: Bond on 4K/UHD   Bond on 4K/UHD EmptyFri Aug 02, 2019 12:39 am

They'll do both. Before Christmas when Bond 25 anticipation is high, and "leave a space" for the upcoming movie. Then they'll rerelease them all with Bond 25 included next year.
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PostSubject: Re: Bond on 4K/UHD   Bond on 4K/UHD EmptySat Aug 03, 2019 4:29 am

If there’s a Christmas release this year we would have heard about it already. My bet is they’ll release a 24 films individually and in a set in March 2020 in anticipation for Bond 25, then on time for Christmas will be the (then) complete set of 25 films, and a definitive complete set for Craig’s set.

Another thing I’ve noticed on one of the 4K iTunes release. It looks like they are distributing the uncut version of CR which has only been available in certain regions like Germany. It’s just minor stuff, similar to how the uncut version of LTK came out on video for the first time in 2006.

Here’s a comparison between the uncut German and US version.

https://www.movie-censorship.com/report.php?ID=4011
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PostSubject: Re: Bond on 4K/UHD   Bond on 4K/UHD EmptySun Aug 04, 2019 3:38 am

THANKS SO MUCH FOR THOSE!

Well it looks like that is finally one more thing checked off the list on innumerable errors. I'll have to wait and see what the HDR pass on the UHD will bring in terms of differences.

The 80's films have a much greater depth on film. Video didn't do any 80's release any favors but neither did the the soft lighting and contrasty look trends of the time.
Stylistically TLD and LTK are far sharper than the Alan Hume shot three that preceded them.
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PostSubject: Re: Bond on 4K/UHD   Bond on 4K/UHD EmptySun Aug 04, 2019 4:15 am

hegottheboot wrote:

Stylistically TLD and LTK are far sharper than the Alan Hume shot three that preceded them.

Disagree with LTK looking sharper than FYEO, OP and AVTAK. In fact, I think FYEO is up there with TLD as being the best of that decade in terms of photography. FYEO might even look better than TLD.
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PostSubject: Re: Bond on 4K/UHD   Bond on 4K/UHD EmptySun Aug 04, 2019 10:10 am

Mr. Kiss Kiss Bang Bang wrote:
hegottheboot wrote:

Stylistically TLD and LTK are far sharper than the Alan Hume shot three that preceded them.

Disagree with LTK looking sharper than FYEO, OP and AVTAK. In fact, I think FYEO is up there with TLD as being the best of that decade in terms of photography. FYEO might even look better than TLD.

I think he's referring to the fact that FYEO, OP and AVTAK used a large amount of soft filter to the lenses, likely to smooth out Moore's noticeable aging. I would assume it was a stylistic choice by Alan Hume, but he didn't use that as frequently in other contemporary films like RETURN OF THE JEDI. It's not a coincidence it's completely dropped once Dalton entered the stage. The only time I can think of a soft filter being applied in the Dalton duology was that cheesy moment where Dario briefly believes he's seeing Pam as a ghost/angel because he thought he killed her, but it's just the dusty cocaine all around her.
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PostSubject: Re: Bond on 4K/UHD   Bond on 4K/UHD EmptySun Aug 04, 2019 10:13 am

hegottheboot wrote:
THANKS SO MUCH FOR THOSE!

Well it looks like that is finally one more thing checked off the list on innumerable errors. I'll have to wait and see what the HDR pass on the UHD will bring in terms of differences.

The 80's films have a much greater depth on film. Video didn't do any 80's release any favors but neither did the the soft lighting and contrasty look trends of the time.
Stylistically TLD and LTK are far sharper than the Alan Hume shot three that preceded them.

I haven't watched the SE DVDs in awhile, but looking at brief snippets of the AVTAK disc was kind of horrifying. I forgot how much edge enhancement was applied to make it look sharper. BLEH.
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PostSubject: Re: Bond on 4K/UHD   Bond on 4K/UHD EmptyThu Aug 08, 2019 3:39 am

You called it Python. Hume did use a noticeable amount of soft lighting on his three Bonds and none of that is on ROTJ-but I have seen it in some of his other works. Eye of the Needle has a lot of similarities to FYEO visually especially with the white backlighting around the sea areas I'd argue.

I think ROTJ was more due to having to make clearer shots for ILM to do effects work and to better shoot the throne room and Endor scenes etc.

Again ALL five 80's films look far more vibrant on film than the video releases prior to the new 4K versions. The Blu-rays for them are all based on the old Lowry UE video masters anyway.
http://www.the007dossier.com/007dossier/post/2015/02/06/A-View-to-a-Kill-flat-35mm-Trailer-HD


Going back to the SE DVDs is very hard because they were originally designed for late release special edition Laserdisc sets before MGM abandoned the format and crammed all of the features and commentaries onto a single disc with the film and drastically reduced bitrate before getting carried away with the tools/defects of the early DVD era of nasties such as edge enhancement and rampant video noise. The THX line of final LDs and early snapper case DVDs were the first time we saw these newer masterss and while they were sharper I actually like the slightly older Laserdisc transfers done in the early 90's some of which were merely reworked for the SE run. So on some of those DVDs you have masters from 1998 and some go back much further. The bitrates for those overstuffed discs is ludicrous for that era of DVD production.

With a good payer and display some of the main letterbox line of Laserdiscs MGM put out from 1989-1994 are quite fantastic with others being a bit noisy but still very good in terms of color accuracy and the like. The sound on all is the best we're likely to get for the original audio tracks. Then you get to GE and especially TND which are reference discs for the format and actually better than their first DVD counterparts.
TWINE is a Japan only late release I reviewed but sadly don't own as it is insanely rare and goes regularly for over $350 US. The picture quality is darn impressive but is outdone by the SE DVD which despite it's own edge enhancement issues is unquestionably more advanced. That being said the color timing of the Laserdisc had some subtleties not on the SE that showed up on the Blu-ray version so go figure....
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