Was the romance more routine in this one?

A lot of people say this is one of the top 5 Bond movies, if not the best. I think it's good, but not great per se. The one thing that brings it down for me to is that the romance between Bond and the Natalya.

It just feels very routine and they get together, just because it's Bond movie and they are required to get together. It feels like 'Well we just escaped an explosion and rescued each other, so let's make out now, and we need to have sex later, but the chemistry doesn't seem to go anywhere beyond that.

I know this happens in a lot of Bond movies, but here it feels especially apparent, I think maybe because it spends a longer amount of time on the romance before the climax, more than usual, even though it's routine. What do you think?

On the contrary I think Bond and Natalya's relationship develops beautifully. Her initial scepticism of him, rooted in post-Cold War tensions, and an undeniable attraction from him, given Bond's weakness for the 'bird with a wing down.' And from Natalya too, who warms to him when he proves to be the only person interested in hearing her side of the story. And of course her recent history with Ouromov, who then kidnaps her, allows her to place her complete trust in Bond. Their moments together on the train are far from routine. She pro-actively pursues Janus' digital footprint which not only impresses Bond, but demonstrates where their allegiance lies - to each other. Never do I get the impression that it's forced.

Their chemistry is electric - from their heated discussion in the interrogation room, to how they bounce off each other... She can't get enough of taking all of Bond in and he seems to never stop being surprised by her resilience and determination despite her horrific experience. Their kiss after escaping the train feels organic and motivated, considering how it's set up.

If it spends more time than usual on the romance, how can it be considered routine?

I await the 'Oh okay ... *insert supplementary, even more nit-picking question* ' reply with ... well, not enthusiasm as such.

ironpony wrote:

we need to have sex later, but the chemistry doesn't seem to go anywhere beyond that.

Words every man lives by, whats the big deal?

Nine words and more articulate than my drivel.

Mr. Kiss Kiss Bang Bang wrote:

On the contrary I think Bond and Natalya's relationship develops beautifully. Her initial scepticism of him, rooted in post-Cold War tensions, and an undeniable attraction from him, given Bond's weakness for the 'bird with a wing down.' And from Natalya too, who warms to him when he proves to be the only person interested in hearing her side of the story. And of course her recent history with Ouromov, who then kidnaps her, allows her to place her complete trust in Bond. Their moments together on the train are far from routine. She pro-actively pursues Janus' digital footprint which not only impresses Bond, but demonstrates where their allegiance lies - to each other. Never do I get the impression that it's forced.

Their chemistry is electric - from their heated discussion in the interrogation room, to how they bounce off each other... She can't get enough of taking all of Bond in and he seems to never stop being surprised by her resilience and determination despite her horrific experience. Their kiss after escaping the train feels organic and motivated, considering how it's set up.

If it spends more time than usual on the romance, how can it be considered routine?

Oh okay, maybe I looked at it differently, that Bond was so busy in a series of chases and close calls with the villains that him and Natayla did not have time to develop. But you are saying it's the chases and close calls that caused them to develop? Maybe that's the way to look at it.

Seeing Bond behind a tank turret made her think of... you know.

'You'll be the one 'painfacing' when I put THIS in you, my dear'.

ironpony wrote:

Mr. Kiss Kiss Bang Bang wrote:

On the contrary I think Bond and Natalya's relationship develops beautifully. Her initial scepticism of him, rooted in post-Cold War tensions, and an undeniable attraction from him, given Bond's weakness for the 'bird with a wing down.' And from Natalya too, who warms to him when he proves to be the only person interested in hearing her side of the story. And of course her recent history with Ouromov, who then kidnaps her, allows her to place her complete trust in Bond. Their moments together on the train are far from routine. She pro-actively pursues Janus' digital footprint which not only impresses Bond, but demonstrates where their allegiance lies - to each other. Never do I get the impression that it's forced.

Their chemistry is electric - from their heated discussion in the interrogation room, to how they bounce off each other... She can't get enough of taking all of Bond in and he seems to never stop being surprised by her resilience and determination despite her horrific experience. Their kiss after escaping the train feels organic and motivated, considering how it's set up.

If it spends more time than usual on the romance, how can it be considered routine?

Oh okay, maybe I looked at it differently, that Bond was so busy in a series of chases and close calls with the villains that him and Natayla did not have time to develop.  But you are saying it's the chases and close calls that caused them to develop?  Maybe that's the way to look at it.

Yes, the action should serve character, too. Then, it's taken a step further with Bond and Natalya really starting to understand each other beyond mutual attraction, which make for some lovely, quieter moments before the final act truly kicks into gear. If each 007 film had a scene akin to Bond and Natalya's on the beach, for example, we'd have an even richer series to dissect.

I'm more concerned with Bond's relationship with the tank. All that violent jerking and bashing. I mean, did he ever call it again?

Nah, tread all over it...

The relationship is given short shift in order to focus on the film's goal of psychoanalyzing Bond for the mid 90's hence the kill them they mean nothing to me banter. I'll admit I never found much in Natalya's character to latch onto until reading Gardner's novelization where she has a backstory and suddenly it all clicked in my head.

The N64 game did not help anyone like Natalya...

Didn't help that in the game Natayla kept getting stuck and sometimes the only way to free her was to shoot her.

hegottheboot wrote:

The relationship is given short shift in order to focus on the film's goal of psychoanalyzing Bond for the mid 90's hence the kill them they mean nothing to me banter.

I don't agree with that at all. Sure it's a fresh, new look into who Bond is, and who Bond would be in a new world, but the dynamic between Bond and Natalya doesn't suffer because of it. In fact, it successfully juggles the expertly handled human exploration into 007 while developing Bond and Natalya's growing relationship. Like I alluded to above, their shared scenes in Cuba are enriched with character moments, palpable chemistry and convincing romance.

Hilly wrote:

Didn't help that in the game Natayla kept getting stuck and sometimes the only way to free her was to shoot her.

That and the AI Natalya crossing into gunfire or your sights and thus triggering Mission Failed.


KKBB I didn't mean that the relationship wasn't believable more that it isn't as much of a primary focus in the narrative as I wish it had been. I like Natalya so much that I wish there was more stuff there to delve into.

Hmm. There's only so much you can do in a 2 hour runtime. Maybe if it had a Craig-era runtime for GE-- which I wholly endorse-- more could be done. But she proves to be just as effective as Fleming's best heroines... or dare I say even more so.

I think the Bond-Natalya relationship is one of the less forced in the series. Every relationship in a Bond film is kind of "forced" to be honest, as Bond miraculously comes across a fellow agent or the villain's mistress and that happens to be a hot girl he takes to bed, it's part of the formula in the 98% of the cases (FRWL might be a notable exception as Tatiana Romanova *IS* the mission).

Martin Campbell builds the story separatedly: Natalya escaping from Severnaya to St Petersburg, evading guards or people who would like to see her dead, with Bond arriving into Russia and touching contacts to get to Janus. Both have seen their friends die* and both are betrayed (Natalya by Boris, Bond by Trevelyan), both are survivors (Bond's profession is basically survival, Natalya survives many threats without being prepared for that as much as Bond)... and Campbell makes both arrows meet in a determinate point (Tiger chopper deathtrap). Payed a lot of attention to this in For England, James: Notes of The Visual Impact of GoldenEye http://bit.do/forenglandjames

I think their brief moment in the interrogation room before Mishkin arrives is where the relationship develops. She hopes to trust this man working for the British government after mistrusting everyone. The very much (unfairly) maligned Serra music helps a lot here, a version of the "Severnaya Suite" track, generating a climate of poignancy. We understand this was a normal girl whose life has changed from one day to another, becoming a survivor without being trained for that, someone who never expected that to happen.

Then analyze the scene on the beach: she genuinely cares for Bond's life. She fears that Bond may become "another hero who is dead" like her Severnaya workmates. I see a lot of gravitas in their relationship, much more than in most of the previous Bond girls which were more a case of "a hot girl came across along the mission, let's get laid".

*Okay, Trevelyan's the villain, but we don't know it at that point.

Nicolas Suszczyk wrote:

I think the Bond-Natalya relationship is one of the less forced in the series. Every relationship in a Bond film is kind of "forced" to be honest, as Bond miraculously comes across a fellow agent or the villain's mistress and that happens to be a hot girl he takes to bed, it's part of the formula in the 98% of the cases (FRWL might be a notable exception as Tatiana Romanova *IS* the mission).

In that sense, I reconcile the "forced" nature of some of the romances in the series as being part of the mythology and allure of James Bond's world. There happens to be one civilian diver at Crab Key in the shape of Ursula Andress? What are the chances?! Goldfinger's pilot is a sexy lesbian who is able to succumb to Bond's charms? A NATO pilot's sister is the villain's gorgeous girlfriend? It's rooted in Fleming and in the early series. It's part of what makes the series so attractive to who the original target audience was. The problem is (and it does not apply here because Bond and Natalya's relationship is so beautifully executed) is whether the rest of the romance in a Bond film can make us forget that setup, or make what happens on screen believable.

Good pick up on Tatiana.

Nicolas Suszczyk wrote:

Martin Campbell builds the story separatedly: Natalya escaping from Severnaya to St Petersburg, evading guards or people who would like to see her dead, with Bond arriving into Russia and touching contacts to get to Janus. Both have seen their friends die* and both are betrayed (Natalya by Boris, Bond by Trevelyan), both are survivors (Bond's profession is basically survival, Natalya survives many threats without being prepared for that as much as Bond)... and Campbell makes both arrows meet in a determinate point (Tiger chopper deathtrap). Payed a lot of attention to this in For England, James: Notes of The Visual Impact of GoldenEye http://bit.do/forenglandjames

Ooh I'll have to check out that link.

And agreed, Natalya and Bond both share similar recent histories and they soon realise the good character in each other. Naturally there's an initial skepticism due to the shadow of the Cold War, but considering both are targets when they first meet, it makes it pretty clear that they might be all they've got to get through this current trauma. It's very telling, when in Natalya's first conversation with Bond in the doomed Tiger, that she's urging Bond to wake up. That is, she is forced to rely on him. It's the best start to a relationship of that kind, when there's a reluctant, urgent partnership. It's the foundation of good drama.

Nicolas Suszczyk wrote:

I think their brief moment in the interrogation room before Mishkin arrives is where the relationship develops. She hopes to trust this man working for the British government after mistrusting everyone. The very much (unfairly) maligned Serra music helps a lot here, a version of the "Severnaya Suite" track, generating a climate of poignancy. We understand this was a normal girl whose life has changed from one day to another, becoming a survivor without being trained for that, someone who never expected that to happen.

100% agreed!! Their tension escalates (she knows she's innocent but she doesn't know if Bond is) and he's had enough. But when she realises he genuinely wants to help her, instead of how her fellow Russians have treated her, she's able to let her guard down, and that vulnerability personifies who Bond inherently has a weakness for - the bird with a wing down. And as you say, the unfairly criticised Serra score perfectly encompasses her vulnerability and their budding romance... before it's interrupted and a sexual energy is borne out of that. We're forced to wait to see their new love consummate. Unlike say Bond and Madeleine where there's no hint at an attraction AT ALL from either character, which is one of the reasons why their smooch on the train is so abrupt and jarring.

Nicolas Suszczyk wrote:

Then analyze the scene on the beach: she genuinely cares for Bond's life. She fears that Bond may become "another hero who is dead" like her Severnaya workmates. I see a lot of gravitas in their relationship, much more than in most of the previous Bond girls which were more a case of "a hot girl came across along the mission, let's get laid".
.

Yes. There's at lot more attention detail with the Bond/Natalya dynamic. This is not one I expected to be under the microscope.