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 Can someone please explain to me the Babs hate?

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Santa
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PostSubject: Can someone please explain to me the Babs hate?   Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:18 am

First I'd like to say how much I'm enjoying looking over all the threads here and discovering the quirky personality points of various posters. After years in one place it's refreshing to see new stuff. However, I have noticed something...

Quote :
As to how the films get made, none of us really know the lay of the land behind the scenes.

As said by a member here on another thread. I for one admit I don't have the foggiest idea what goes on behind the scenes with Bond, Babs, MGW etc., who makes the decisions, who rolls over, blah blah but plenty of people here seem to. I've seen the Babs hate on other forums but not as strongly as here. It's not a snarky question, I'd genuinely like to know how come Babs gets the blame for everything certain posters don't like about the way the series is going. I largely try to avoid 'making of' items and film spoilers so my guess is there are interviews and statements she or others behind the scenes have made publicly that I have missed because if there aren't then I am really confused, so I'd be grateful if someone could point me in that direction.

I'd just like to clarify that I'm not defending Babs or accusing her, I'm simply in the dark here.
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone please explain to me the Babs hate?   Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:35 am

Santa wrote:
First I'd like to say how much I'm enjoying looking over all the threads here and discovering the quirky personality points of various posters. After years in one place it's refreshing to see new stuff. However, I have noticed something...

Quote :
As to how the films get made, none of us really know the lay of the land behind the scenes.

As said by a member here on another thread. I for one admit I don't have the foggiest idea what goes on behind the scenes with Bond, Babs, MGW etc., who makes the decisions, who rolls over, blah blah but plenty of people here seem to. I've seen the Babs hate on other forums but not as strongly as here. It's not a snarky question, I'd genuinely like to know how come Babs gets the blame for everything certain posters don't like about the way the series is going. I largely try to avoid 'making of' items and film spoilers so my guess is there are interviews and statements she or others behind the scenes have made publicly that I have missed because if there aren't then I am really confused, so I'd be grateful if someone could point me in that direction.

I'd just like to clarify that I'm not defending Babs or accusing her, I'm simply in the dark here.

I don't hate Tits McBroccoli, but my respect for her accomplishments (which I gave her credit for after CR was such a huge success) took a huge nosedive after the stunt she pulled for International Whiners Day.

What she did to James Bond by putting Daniel Craig in that dress, wig, stockings is...it was outrageous and undignified and uncalled for. It was an affront to all the hard-working Bond fans who have spent countless hours, money and other resources preaching the gospel of Bond.....it was a slap in the face to the faithful who kept attending the movies when the box office was declining and kept encouraging people not to give up on Bond just because the Soviet Union collapsed or because Roger Moore stuck around 1 film too many...

For over 2/3rds of my life I"ve been a proud Bond fan...through the good and the bad..the ups and the downs....and to see her prostitute and whore out the Bond character the way she did is so tragic and sad And, I would suggest, that if Michael were more vocal and visible on these issues, he'd get a larger share of the blame. But she seems to have emerged as THE power player in the Bond series right now, pushing for Craig when no one else around her, not one single person, wanted him. I remember the times in the 90's when she was being offered the cover of magazines to talk about her involvement with the Bond series (the 'real power' behind Bond), and she always retreated to the background and let Michael do all the talking. Something changed, though, by the early 00's and now we see more of Babs and less of Michael, which I personally wouldn't care about except that the shift in the power dynamic has resulted in pimping out Bond like a common streetwalker so he can endorse her political causes.

She needs to take that shiz somewhere else. I can't make this any more plain.
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone please explain to me the Babs hate?   Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:37 am

Guess it's a mixture of a lot of things, not a single reason, at least with most.

There's simple hate and disgust for what people take to be 'activist' or 'liberal' or 'feminist' agendas that don't mix with their own agenda and views. Some have a feeling as fans they are entitled to a more legitimate view of what the series should be. And us fans of the books of course often miss the Bond character in the films. While the die-hard film fans may want the golden days of a fat and bored Connery or a mocking Moore back. And some twerps may simply parrot what they feel is the majority's view and paint themselves into corners they can't escape from any more. Babs Broccoli is as good a hate figure for all of that as anybody else.

Fact is, Bond movies are a business and are sold to the whole world, not just the fans. Each one of us would make it's own definite Bond flick, they just churn out one every few years and they don't even aim for 'definite'. They aim for tons of money.
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone please explain to me the Babs hate?   Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:55 am

I seem not to have explained myself very well - I know what it is people object to, what I don't understand is how people ascribe certain actions to Babs personally. For example how do we know MGW didn't suggest the 'Equals' ad? Are people putting words into her mouth or has she come out and said "I have a liberal, feminist agenda", or words to that effect?
I understand the things people are laying at her door, I'm just trying to work out why. I see things I do or do not like going on in Bond films but have no idea who is responsible. I'm not looking for opinions on Babs here but evidence for why she is held responsible for bad decisions but MGW isn't.
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone please explain to me the Babs hate?   Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:13 am

MGW has been involved in the production for a long time, while a lot of what people disagree with coincides with Babs taking over from her father. I don't think anybody has inside knowledge about what exactly was due to her influence, it's just become a part of our folklore.
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone please explain to me the Babs hate?   Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:14 am

Santa wrote:
I seem not to have explained myself very well - I know what it is people object to, what I don't understand is how people ascribe certain actions to Babs personally. For example how do we know MGW didn't suggest the 'Equals' ad? Are people putting words into her mouth or has she come out and said "I have a liberal, feminist agenda", or words to that effect?
I understand the things people are laying at her door, I'm just trying to work out why. I see things I do or do not like going on in Bond films but have no idea who is responsible. I'm not looking for opinions on Babs here but evidence for why she is held responsible for bad decisions but MGW isn't.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

JAMES BOND SUPPORTS INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S DAY


http://www.weareequals.org/downloads/pr/EQUALS-Film-Media-Release.pdf

In the film ‘M’ interrogates Bond with a series of searching questions on gender issues, from pay inequality to domestic violence. ‘M’ asks: “For someone with such a fondness for women, I wonder if you’ve ever considered what it means to be one?”
Bond then appears in a blonde wig, a dress and women’s shoes, in a sequence that is both highly emotional and deeply disturbing. As he/she stands silent, Dench continues to read a list of brutal statistics relating to the role of women and their treatment in our society.


Sam Taylor-Wood said: “Bond is challenged by ‘M’ to think about gender inequality, and I hope that the film encourages viewers to do the same. Despite great advances in women’s rights, statistics show that when it comes to the balance of power between the sexes, equality is far from being a global reality. As ‘M’ reminds Bond, facing up to gender issues and the sometimes covert nature of sexism in the 21stcentury is something that we all have to recognise, confront and challenge.

”The film was commissioned by EQUALS, a coalition of charities and organisations brought together by Annie Lennox to step up the call for equality between men and women. Produced by Barbara Broccoli, the woman behind box-office hits ‘Casino Royale’, ‘Quantum of Solace’ and the forthcoming ‘Bond 23’, and shot by Oscarnominated cinematographer Seamus McGarvey, the film will be released at midday on Monday 7 March to mark the centenary of International Women’s Day the following day. EQUALS spokeswoman Esme Peach said: “We are thrilled that Sam Taylor-Wood, Daniel Craig, Dame Judi Dench and such a prestigious production team agreed to create this powerful short film for EQUALS. We feel it is crucial to involve men in the movement for women’s rights and EQUALS is about men and women working together for positive change. So who better to convey that message than the partnership of Bond and ‘M’, two iconic British characters with global appeal and influence – and who better to conceive and direct the film than Sam Taylor-Wood, an artist and film-maker whose work is questioning, often provocative and deeply moving?”


----------------------------------

Nowhere do I see Michael Wilson mentioned in the credits for this PSA. And nowhere do I see any of the "positive change" mentioned. Instead, it's a rehashed litany of grievances that have little or nothing to do with Bond or the status of women from the country Bond was born to.

The whole PSA is a joke; it's effect is to actually trivialize real problems with the way some women are treated by slapping a dress and wig on Bond and getting him to empathize with the plight of women. But how exactly does that work? How does Bond now know what it feels like to be a poor Somali woman with no education, no home ,10 kids to feed, and nothing but bits of rice and wheat given to her by a UN relief worker?

And Bond and M are not equals; he is her subordinate, but in this video she's actually reduced to a pathetic, sad puppy dog whimpering for some attention. The M of the books and films would never had cowered and lowered him/herself into trying to win 007's "respect". I honestly can't see how Dench even agreed to go along with the script for this PSA, but then again, Hollywood people tend to live in a cocoon-like environment. This ad will play well in Boston, New York, LA and Seattle, but real women throughout the rest of the U.S. and Britain won't recognize M's misandrist rant as having any relevance to the problems they face everyday.

And the real James Bond wouldn't have given a toss about International Womyn's Day and most certainly would not be lending his name or his image for this collective man-hating fest.
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone please explain to me the Babs hate?   Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:19 am

Did anyone really pay that much attention to it? It came out months ago and the only place I've ever heard it mentioned is on Bond fan forums. I see what they were trying to do and I'm sure it's commendable but I can't see any wife beaters/rapists watching it and deciding to change their ways. Even less do I see it as anything to do with Bond.
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone please explain to me the Babs hate?   Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:23 am

Santa wrote:
Did anyone really pay that much attention to it? It came out months ago and the only place I've ever heard it mentioned is on Bond fan forums. I see what they were trying to do and I'm sure it's commendable but I can't see any wife beaters/rapists watching it and deciding to change their ways. Even less do I see it as anything to do with Bond.

I saw the story about it advertised on several cable news networks. But you're right; the wife beaters and rapists aren't going to be persuaded to think about "gender equality" so why even run the risk of alienating your fan base for something as preposterous as this ad?
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone please explain to me the Babs hate?   Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:40 am

Haven't even seen it, don't intend to either.
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone please explain to me the Babs hate?   Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:43 am

Santa wrote:
I seem not to have explained myself very well - I know what it is people object to, what I don't understand is how people ascribe certain actions to Babs personally.

It's things like these that accumulate in the back of one's mind:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/celebritynews/3024355/James-Bond-girls-are-feminist-icons-says-Cubby-Broccolis-daughter.html

I suspect Michael G Wilson doesn't give a rats arse.
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone please explain to me the Babs hate?   Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:52 am

Sharky wrote:
Santa wrote:
I seem not to have explained myself very well - I know what it is people object to, what I don't understand is how people ascribe certain actions to Babs personally.

It's things like these that accumulate in the back of one's mind:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/celebritynews/3024355/James-Bond-girls-are-feminist-icons-says-Cubby-Broccolis-daughter.html

I suspect Michael G Wilson doesn't give a rats arse.

She seems defensive in that article, and maybe slightly embarrassed that her father helped build an empire on male fantasy wish fulfillment. If that's the case, why hasn't EON ever seriously put together a project featuring a female 00-agent?
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone please explain to me the Babs hate?   Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:03 am

No Babs hate here.... :cheers:
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone please explain to me the Babs hate?   Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:17 am

Gravity's Silhouette wrote:
Sharky wrote:
Santa wrote:
I seem not to have explained myself very well - I know what it is people object to, what I don't understand is how people ascribe certain actions to Babs personally.

It's things like these that accumulate in the back of one's mind:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/celebritynews/3024355/James-Bond-girls-are-feminist-icons-says-Cubby-Broccolis-daughter.html

I suspect Michael G Wilson doesn't give a rats arse.

She seems defensive in that article, and maybe slightly embarrassed that her father helped build an empire on male fantasy wish fulfillment. If that's the case, why hasn't EON ever seriously put together a project featuring a female 00-agent?

No, she's embarrassed because the women in the books hardly ever used to be the bimbos EON put on the screen and the real Bond rarely was that interested in. And if he was he'd muse in advance about how their skin would turn out to be heavy, dank and wide-pored and the blonde hair like piano wire with brown roots. Mostly, book Bond handled his women more coinsiderate than the films ever depicted their counterpart.
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone please explain to me the Babs hate?   Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:33 am

While Babs' extracurricular uses of Bond and some of her public statements are troubling, all the post-Cubby films have done well and the Craig era is attracting more publicity and debate around the series than in a long time. She seems to have pissed off some of us, but I see it as more in good humour. Even if the Craig casting or the feminist ad wouldn't have happened, Babs would still be at the centre of attention... it must be her sparkling personality, among other tits things.
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone please explain to me the Babs hate?   Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:39 am

Frankly I think many tend to overreact to the Women's Day ad. It's not a Bond film, it's Babs' little side project. I don't feel "betrayed" when watching it. I just roll my eyes and disregard it as a silly misguided ad and focus on the things that really matter for Bond: the films. Those what really count. There's no way she would pull it off on them and I honestly don't think she would consider doing that either.
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone please explain to me the Babs hate?   Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:44 am

GeneralGogol wrote:
While Babs' extracurricular uses of Bond and some of her public statements are troubling, all the post-Cubby films have done well and the Craig era is attracting more publicity and debate around the series than in a long time. She seems to have pissed off some of us, but I see it as more in good humour. Even if the Craig casting or the feminist ad wouldn't have happened, Babs would still be at the centre of attention... it must be her sparkling personality, among other tits things.


Yep, think so too. There's a feeling EON just don't care about Bond, they just care about the profit. In some strangely Marxist way we despise Babs for this profit-oriented view. And we begrudge her her obvious financial success. And we hate her for 'alienating millions of fans' because it's obvious it's neither millions nor does it count for anything, because those 'alienated' are going to see the films regardless, so it's samey if they bitch or flame or praise the second coming. Because the dollars keep coming in.


Last edited by Kennon on Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:33 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone please explain to me the Babs hate?   Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:06 am

Sharky wrote:
Santa wrote:
I seem not to have explained myself very well - I know what it is people object to, what I don't understand is how people ascribe certain actions to Babs personally.

It's things like these that accumulate in the back of one's mind:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/celebritynews/3024355/James-Bond-girls-are-feminist-icons-says-Cubby-Broccolis-daughter.html

I suspect Michael G Wilson doesn't give a rats arse.

That's more the kind of thing I was looking for, actual quotes. Thing is, that article doesn't really support the 'feminazi' view (not my word, it was used about her on another thread), in fact it says the feminists were unimpressed with her theory. It takes away from rather than adds to what the 'Babs haters' say.
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone please explain to me the Babs hate?   Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:10 am

Santa wrote:
Sharky wrote:
Santa wrote:
I seem not to have explained myself very well - I know what it is people object to, what I don't understand is how people ascribe certain actions to Babs personally.

It's things like these that accumulate in the back of one's mind:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/celebritynews/3024355/James-Bond-girls-are-feminist-icons-says-Cubby-Broccolis-daughter.html

I suspect Michael G Wilson doesn't give a rats arse.

That's more the kind of thing I was looking for, actual quotes. Thing is, that article doesn't really support the 'feminazi' view (not my word, it was used about her on another thread), in fact it says the feminists were unimpressed with her theory. It takes away from rather than adds to what the 'Babs haters' say.

Just because they rejected her statement, that doesn't take away from the fact that she was trying to appease them.
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone please explain to me the Babs hate?   Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:14 am

Santa wrote:
Sharky wrote:
Santa wrote:
I seem not to have explained myself very well - I know what it is people object to, what I don't understand is how people ascribe certain actions to Babs personally.

It's things like these that accumulate in the back of one's mind:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/celebritynews/3024355/James-Bond-girls-are-feminist-icons-says-Cubby-Broccolis-daughter.html

I suspect Michael G Wilson doesn't give a rats arse.

That's more the kind of thing I was looking for, actual quotes. Thing is, that article doesn't really support the 'feminazi' view (not my word, it was used about her on another thread), in fact it says the feminists were unimpressed with her theory. It takes away from rather than adds to what the 'Babs haters' say.

Not quite. That article was also from September of 2008; the PSA was filmed and released in March of 2011. It actually shows that her first documented attempt (that I recall) to ingratiate herself with the feminist movement didn't work as planned, so she went back to the drawing board and came up with Bond In Drag. Barbara has had 2.5 years to be re-educated and get on the same page as her feminist friends. Clearly they weren't going to buy the line that Bond Girls = Progressive Feminism, so they did the next, better thing: they went straight to the source (007) and turned him into a marketing tool to promote a "gender equality" agenda, as if there is even any such thing as "gender equality".

You CANNOT seperate the PSA from the film series, because everyone involved in the PSA is also actively at work on BOND-23. Do we really believe we won't see any of their politics end up in the next Bond film? They are one and the same.
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone please explain to me the Babs hate?   Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:15 am

As best I can tell, SHE is the reason Craig was selected as Bond, over all sorts of reasonable objections and better candidates, and whatever other calls she makes, THAT is enough for me to really seriously dislike her. No matter how well a Bond film might be made, it still has that uglyass albatross around its neck in the form of Craig, who should be playing LeChiffre's henchman or may-be Felix Leiter.

then there's the aspect of BB trying to get highfalutin' talent for bond flicks, to legitimize them somehow (after this many pics, I think they're as legit as they need to be, they don't need to try to get them to a different class level.)

Taste-wise, I think she might come to be thought of as the Rick Berman (ModernTrek guru, 1987-04,05) of 007, someone with delusions of taste. But Berman could make the trains run on time at least, and for that, I think we have to rely on her stepbro.

To be fair, my dislike of the clan dates back much further, as I thought there were precious few good decisions made on Bond film from DAF through VIEW TO A KILL, and I'd have settled for a long hiatus between OHMSS and TLD, except that it would have deprived us of some marvelous Ken Adam and Derek Meddings work. I remember kicking a hole in something when I heard Albert was getting the Thallberg Oscar, in fact.
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone please explain to me the Babs hate?   Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:17 am

Quote :
Just because they rejected her statement, that doesn't take away from the fact that she was trying to appease them.
She was? What she said sounded pretty reasonable to me. If I hear one more Bond girl say she's different to the others because she's Bond's equal I may have to turn to violence, but on the other hand, don't we all moan about the pathetic Stacey Sutton types? I'd say the Bond girls of the 60s pretty much nailed it.
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone please explain to me the Babs hate?   Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:18 am

Gravity's Silhouette wrote:
You CANNOT seperate the PSA from the film series, because everyone involved in the PSA is also actively at work on BOND-23. Do we really believe we won't see any of their politics end up in the next Bond film? They are one and the same.
Annie Lennox and Sam Taylor-Wood?
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone please explain to me the Babs hate?   Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:21 am

Santa wrote:
Gravity's Silhouette wrote:
You CANNOT seperate the PSA from the film series, because everyone involved in the PSA is also actively at work on BOND-23. Do we really believe we won't see any of their politics end up in the next Bond film? They are one and the same.
Annie Lennox and Sam Taylor-Wood?

You know who I'm talking about: Dench, Craig and Tits McBroccoli.
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone please explain to me the Babs hate?   Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:24 am

Santa wrote:
Sharky wrote:
Santa wrote:
I seem not to have explained myself very well - I know what it is people object to, what I don't understand is how people ascribe certain actions to Babs personally.

It's things like these that accumulate in the back of one's mind:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/celebritynews/3024355/James-Bond-girls-are-feminist-icons-says-Cubby-Broccolis-daughter.html

I suspect Michael G Wilson doesn't give a rats arse.

That's more the kind of thing I was looking for, actual quotes. Thing is, that article doesn't really support the 'feminazi' view (not my word, it was used about her on another thread), in fact it says the feminists were unimpressed with her theory. It takes away from rather than adds to what the 'Babs haters' say.

It's not so much about actual facts, more what people think she's up to. She gave the role to a damn fine actor, but of course she only did it because she has the hots for him. Doesn't tally with other popular theories claiming she was either interested in women or nothing at all, but that was yesterday's rumours. She made that dress thing and people fear it's a first trailer for the next flick. She belongs to the Hollywood set and that justfies the worst expectations. All evidence to the contrary would be even more proof of her wicked ways.
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone please explain to me the Babs hate?   Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:30 am

trevanian wrote:
As best I can tell, SHE is the reason Craig was selected as Bond, over all sorts of reasonable objections and better candidates, and whatever other calls she makes, THAT is enough for me to really seriously dislike her. No matter how well a Bond film might be made, it still has that uglyass albatross around its neck in the form of Craig, who should be playing LeChiffre's henchman or may-be Felix Leiter.

I wouldn't go that far. It's true she was the only one that wanted Craig, but I don't think he's an albatross. He does bring some things to the table that his predecessors couldn't or wouldn't. Whether those are things you like or dislike is a matter of personal choice.

Quote :

then there's the aspect of BB trying to get highfalutin' talent for bond flicks, to legitimize them somehow (after this many pics, I think they're as legit as they need to be, they don't need to try to get them to a different class level.)

Now you're talking! :cheers: This is one of the biggest problems I have with the series lately; it's trying to be more than what it really is, and I think deep down inside there is a kernel of embarrassment on Bab's part for the entire series; as if it's beneath her. Yet she doesn't expand the Bond universe by creating spin-off projects that focus on other agents. MI6 *DOES HAVE* other agents, you know? And this is probably my woman's intutition, but I suspect that Babs secretly dislikes Bond and is not willing to go create other spin-off projects featuring other 00-agents because she wants to MAKE A POINT and she needs 007 to do it, even if it means destroying him in the process.

I also think having Amy Paschal running the studio side of things helped embolden Barbara to make choices that ran contrary to previously established conventional wisdom. Was getting Marc Forster a coup? Perhaps, but look at what price that coup came! A 200$ million film without much heart or soul or wit. And now we're getting an Oscar winner to direct, a couple of Oscar nominees to write and star....pretty soon we can just sell the Bond films as Video On Demand to networks such as Lifetime and Hallmark and just skip the entire theatrical run, because they're turning into chick flicks when they should be dick-flicks!!! And I'm not a sexist, so don't anyone even go there.
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