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 [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0)

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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0)   [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0) - Page 20 EmptyTue Jan 17, 2012 7:26 pm

I'd say any filmmaker who recognises the value of the age old myths and fairytales that form our cultural identity (in childhood development) over comic books, is considerably more adult than one who doesn't. Burton got to the core of Batman, by tracing back to where the idea originated.
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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0)   [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0) - Page 20 EmptyWed Jan 18, 2012 12:01 am

Sharky wrote:
IBurton got to the core of Batman, by tracing back to where the idea originated.
Does he, though? More often, he just bends the existing characters to fit new archetypes that have no real precursor in the comics (i.e. the Penguin as Richard III). FWIW, I don't have much of a problem with that, but the idea that Burton gets to the "core" of Batman doesn't strike me as right. He's less interested in exploring the roots of the Batman character than he is in making Batman and his universe something that reflects his own interests.
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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0)   [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0) - Page 20 EmptyWed Jan 18, 2012 12:40 am

Harmsway wrote:
Sharky wrote:
IBurton got to the core of Batman, by tracing back to where the idea originated.
Does he, though? More often, he just bends the existing characters to fit new archetypes that have no real precursor in the comics (i.e. the Penguin as Richard III). FWIW, I don't have much of a problem with that, but the idea that Burton gets to the "core" of Batman doesn't strike me as right. He's less interested in exploring the roots of the Batman character than he is in making Batman and his universe something that reflects his own interests.

Indeed the real difference in the approaches of Nolan and Burton imo is that one actually embraces the source material and develops it for the cinema, the other shows no real interest in the source and simply inserts <Character in Batmans Outfit> as an incidental player - likewise I don't wish to labour the point, I actually love most Burton and Batman Returns is one of my faves (though I confess I prefer the 1989 Batman and both Nolans Bat-films) but it doesn't imo 'get' Batman and it isn't really that adult in what it does, more its a list of ideas Burton will repeatedly return to, his first really free hand is a sketch that sets his future course and limits.
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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0)   [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0) - Page 20 EmptyWed Jan 18, 2012 12:46 am

I'd probably buy that (Harm's argument), but I still don't see how Nolan's one note moroseness is any less juvenile than Burton's zany shtick. The kind of stuff that passes for dialogues in those two film could have been a lyric from an MCR song.

"You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become one."

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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0)   [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0) - Page 20 EmptyWed Jan 18, 2012 1:27 am

Sharky wrote:
I'd say any filmmaker who recognises the value of the age old myths and fairytales that form our cultural identity (in childhood development) over comic books, is considerably more adult than one who doesn't. Burton got to the core of Batman, by tracing back to where the idea originated.

I'm sorry, but this is a pretty meaningless statement. You're saying that by ignoring where the idea Actually originated, comics, and instead recognising fairytales as a source, it's better? That's bull for a couple of reasons: One is that it places an inherent value of fairytales and myths over comics as "stories for children" -- for what reason? Because they are older? For millions of Americans from the 1930s onwards comic books have had just as much if not more involvement in their childhood development, especially their morality. I would rather follow the morality of Superman or Batman over a Grimm's Fairy Tale any day.

As for this idea that these myths and fairytales are somehow where "the idea" (the idea of what? Batman) actually originated, that's pretty bogus too. Kane and Finger's inspiration for the Bat was The Shadow and Zorro -- pulp characters. Batman's roots are in pulp, not myth. And if you really want to trace it back, Zorro's roots are probably earliest seen in something like Robin Hood.

But the most major flaw with this argument is where are you seeing myth and fairy tale in BURTON'S Batman films? The first film is pure pulp neo-noir, while the second is more or less Burton's unique nightmarish stylings pasted overtop of a rather ugly screenplay. The score in RETURNS is maybe the only fairytale-ish thing, and even then only a dark one (like they all were originally, of course). But NOTHING in RETURNS plays like myth or fairytale: more like pop psychology and art direction and bad oh-so-witty dialogue. EDWARD SCISSORHANDS? Fairytale. NIGHTMARE BEFORE CHRISTMAS? Fairytale. BATMAN RETURNS? Not an ounce of that genre in it. Just because it shares visual conventions with those other two films doesn't mean it shares anything with that genre, since the visuals themselves are twists on the tradtional depictions of that genre. Because essentially once Burton made SCISSORHANDS, he set about remaking it as many ways as he could with different characters (excluding work-for-hire jobs like PLANET OF THE APES)

Or, in short: saying fairytales are intrinsically better than comics is a pretty hollow and faux-pretentious thing to say.

Also -- you misquoted that line, Sharky -- and in a way that reads as not making any sense, in fact. It's die a hero, live long enough to be a villain.

Though I will admit the repetition of pseudo-meaningful lines in Nolan's Bat-films is somewhat tiresome, it's something he picked up from Jeph Loeb, the writer behind the Batman comics Nolan has cited as his favourites -- his writing is filled with repeated dialogue ("I Believe in Harvey Dent") as if repeated it makes it more meaningful.
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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0)   [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0) - Page 20 EmptyWed Jan 18, 2012 1:32 am

Oh, Christ Almighty. Care to condense that a bit? I want an argument FFS, not a Goddamn lecture.

BTW, faux-pretentious is a tautology. I'm either pretentious or I'm not.
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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0)   [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0) - Page 20 EmptyWed Jan 18, 2012 1:43 am

Sorry, sometimes there's just so much I disagree with in what you say I tend to ramble. But I'd aprreciate it if you actually read some it sometime. I did include an "in short" statement in there. Anyways, if six paragraphs is too much reading for you, perhaps try some comics? ;)

And yeah, pretentious. I thew the "faux" in there because the thought crossed my mind that someone really trying to be pretentious might not defend fairy tales either.
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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0)   [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0) - Page 20 EmptyWed Jan 18, 2012 1:49 am

Eh, I didn't think Sykes' post was all that long.
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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0)   [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0) - Page 20 EmptyWed Jan 18, 2012 1:53 am

Saying I'm long-winded was the best defense he could come up with to that "Burton got the core of Batman by ignoring Batman and making a modern day fairytale" Apparently a lot of the fairytales Sharky got as a kid involved BDSM fetish imagery, tons of sexual inneundo and men who spout black bile when they talk.
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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0)   [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0) - Page 20 EmptyWed Jan 18, 2012 2:13 am

I'll have a go.

Quote :
Or, in short: saying fairytales are intrinsically better than comics is a pretty hollow thing to say.

Maybe I was too specific saying fairytales. I meant myths really, stretching as far back to the Babylonians and Assyrians. I know that's a pretty broad statement, but I'm trying to say is that while Burton didn't dot the "i"s and cross the "t"s of the Batman comics (which is why I guess many anal fans get mad at his films), or was that faithful at all to any of them, he went back to where all of these superhero myths came from. The villains and heroes in our collective subconscious. That to me, is much a richer and wider canvas to paint with than simply trying to translate the comics to the big screen, precisely because these myths are so universal, timeless and powerful, whereas the Batman comics (and I know I'm talking generalisations here) for all their highlights over the years, are very much a product of 20th Century America, for good or ill.

Simply put, I'd rather have a fresh bacon produced on a local farm, than preserved slices in packets at a superstore. I want the real deal, not second or third hand. Ok, I'm not sure that analogy makes sense, but moving on.

Quote :
But NOTHING in RETURNS plays like myth or fairytale: more like pop psychology and art direction and bad oh-so-witty dialogue.


If we're talking about myths here, then RETURNS has got plenty of 'em. Just look at the the treatment of Penguin, Catwoman, or Daniel Walters's Max Schreck. That's stuff rooted in lore.

Oh, and least RETURNS has got wit, bad or not.

Quote :
Because essentially once Burton made SCISSORHANDS, he set about remaking it as many ways as he could with different characters

That's a ridiculous statement. What about ED WOOD and MARS ATTACKS?

Quote :
Though I will admit the repetition of pseudo-meaningful lines in Nolan's Bat-films is somewhat tiresome, it's something he picked up from Jeph Loeb, the writer behind the Batman comics Nolan has cited as his favourites -- his writing is filled with repeated dialogue ("I Believe in Harvey Dent") as if repeated it makes it more meaningful.

If I ever come to reading the Batman comics, I'll stick clear of the Loeb ones. Cheers.


Last edited by Sharky on Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:16 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0)   [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0) - Page 20 EmptyWed Jan 18, 2012 2:14 am

Harmsway wrote:
Eh, I didn't think Sykes' post was all that long.

Maybe not, but it read like a rant.
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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0)   [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0) - Page 20 EmptyWed Jan 18, 2012 2:33 am

Sharky wrote:
That's stuff rooted in lore.
Kinda/sorta. The allusions are there, but they don't really add up to much.

It's worth mentioning that the Nolan Batman films have their share of mythic tropes woven into their narrative tapestry, and the entire Nolan trilogy seems to be a work of modern myth, extending beyond any simple translation of the comics (Nolan seriously redefines Batman and his significance in these films). So I'm not sure the dichotomy that has been set up between the Burton and Nolan flicks holds water.

Sharky wrote:
If I ever come to reading the Batman comics, I'll stick clear of the Loeb ones. Cheers.
Eh, dialogue ain't everything, especially when it comes to comic books. Some of the Loeb comics--LONG HALLOWEEN, in particular--have some of the best Batman comic artwork ever produced. Loeb's not a great writer, but those comics have style, thanks to Tim Sale's contribution.
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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0)   [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0) - Page 20 EmptyWed Jan 18, 2012 2:47 am

Harmsway wrote:
Sharky wrote:
That's stuff rooted in lore.

Kinda/sorta. The allusions are there, but they don't really add up to much.

They add up to Burton being romantically in-touch with the characters, and own his complete identification with the loners, outcasts and freaks that transcends what Nolan's achieved. In that way you could say it's Burton-ised Batman, since that's a common thread to most of his films. And it's the not the mythic tropes in themselves really, but how Burton handles them.
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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0)   [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0) - Page 20 EmptyWed Jan 18, 2012 3:41 am

No doubt I'm wildly misinterpreting the signs from the trailer, the prologue and the stills, but the vibe I'm getting is that THE DARK KNIGHT RISES (a title I still can't get to grips with - I keep thinking it's either THE DARK KNIGHT RISING or THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS) is much campier and sillier than its two predecessors, and that this campiness and silliness is shackled awkwardly to a lot of po-faced "social conscience" pontificating and attempted "realist" filmmaking.
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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0)   [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0) - Page 20 EmptyWed Jan 18, 2012 3:45 am

Where are you getting this campiness/silliness vibe from, Loomster? It's not coming across here.
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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0)   [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0) - Page 20 EmptyWed Jan 18, 2012 3:52 am

Sharky wrote:
Where are you getting this campiness/silliness vibe from, Loomster?

Well, I'll tell you where I'm getting it from, Sharkmeister. I'm getting it from Bane's ludicrous Humungous-in-MAD-MAX-2 appearance, from the presence of Catwoman and (so rumour has it) Robin, and from the Batwing aircraft thingy. It all seems much more OTT and "out-there" than THE DARK KNIGHT - more Schumacheresque, if you will.

Insofar as I like Batman (and I don't very much) I like it as down-to-earth and as "believable" as possible. Which I why I like only THE DARK KNIGHT and the first half of BATMAN BEGINS. Nothing else.
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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0)   [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0) - Page 20 EmptyWed Jan 18, 2012 5:46 am

Sharky wrote:
Harmsway wrote:
Sharky wrote:
That's stuff rooted in lore.

Kinda/sorta. The allusions are there, but they don't really add up to much.

They add up to Burton being romantically in-touch with the characters, and own his complete identification with the loners, outcasts and freaks that transcends what Nolan's achieved. In that way you could say it's Burton-ised Batman, since that's a common thread to most of his films. And it's the not the mythic tropes in themselves really, but how Burton handles them.

I guess my main objection to RETURNS isn't that Buton isn't 100% accurate to the comics, he's free to reinterpret as he likes. I mean, god knows the comics themselves have reinterpreted characters like Catwoman dozens of times over the years to suit current tastes. But what I'm trying to say is that from a technical standpoint of telling a story, with well-defined characters who have consistent goals, motivations, and personalities, the scripts to his two Batman films are absolute rubbish.

And I will give you MARS ATTACKS, but ED WOOD is still the "dreamer outsider looking in" story just in a more grounded setting.

Sharky wrote:
Where are you getting this campiness/silliness vibe from, Loomster? It's not coming across here.

Here I'll have to agree with Sharky. If anything, Nolan's stuff takes itself too seriously. For example, Nolan has said he will never do Robin because he can't make that character work in a the world of the "serious, realistic" Batman he's created. And to that I say "bullshit". There are no bad characters, only bad writers, and a statement like that just says "I don't understand this caracter or what makes him work." The character of Robin has been around longer than the Joker or Catwoman. A certain kind of Batman fan loves to say "oh, I like him so much better when he was on his own, before Robin", but the truth of the matter is that Robin was introduced into those books after just one year. Batman was a "loner" for one year. And to say you think Robin is antithetical to Batman shows you really don't get either character.

To go back to Sharky's points about myth, it's like saying you want to do Robin Hood without Little John. But that's a bit of a rant.

Another rant is this idea that somehow Batman films getting sillier is "Schumacheresque". I'm sorry, but all of the pre-Nolan films were much sillier, including Burton's. Burton was just a different kind of silly -- but he still had lines like "I am Catwoman, hear me roar" and "Just the pussy I was looking for". All the bad puns, fetishistic outfits, bizarre lighting, etc. it's all still there -- it's just Tim's aesthetic instead of Joel's.

I apologize for these long rants, but I'm a Batman fan before even being a Bond fan, so I have some strong opinions.

As for Bane's appearance -- well, would you prefer the luchador mask and the venom tubes directly into the brain look he has in the comics?
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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0)   [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0) - Page 20 EmptyWed Jan 18, 2012 6:24 am

Fairbairn-Sykes wrote:
But what I'm trying to say is that from a technical standpoint of telling a story, with well-defined characters who have consistent goals, motivations, and personalities, the scripts to his two Batman films are absolute rubbish.

While I wouldn't say the scripts are absolute rubbish (in fact I think there's a lot of clever stuff you're missing out on), simply because the characters are inconsistent (in Burton's schizoid universe, consistency isn't all that much anyway - it's not what he's about) - but I'd agree that they're arguably weaker compared to the direction. Though I still both (especially the direction) run circles around anything Nolan's to date, which is relatively flat.

Fairbairn-Sykes wrote:
And I will give you MARS ATTACKS, but ED WOOD is still the "dreamer outsider looking in" story just in a more grounded setting.

I don't deny that's the main constant of Burton's cinema, but it's a bit much to say he's just been re-working EDWARD SCISSORHANDS for the last 20 odd years. That's like taking the fact that there's often childlike heroes, aliens, Post-Nixon government scientist bad guys, and some kind of spiritual revelation - and saying he's been remaking CLOSE ENCOUNTERS God knows how many times.

Fairbairn-Sykes wrote:
Burton was just a different kind of silly -- but he still had lines like "I am Catwoman, hear me roar" and "Just the pussy I was looking for". All the bad puns, fetishistic outfits, bizarre lighting, etc. it's all still there -- it's just Tim's aesthetic instead of Joel's.

I think you're underestimating the humour there a bit, Sykes. "I am Catwoman, hear me roar" is a pretty clever (and funny, I gotta admit) spin (almost mockery) on the idea of Catwoman as symbol of women's lib. It also demonstrates Burton's knack for pop culture commentary, that's later on full force in MARS ATTACKS! The pussy joke ain't as clever, but it's more adult than Nolan's Batman, in that at least sex is acknowledged, even if it's in a tongue-in-cheek (or pussy) way. Has Bale's Batman hit puberty yet?

Schumacher's dialogue is just plain dumb. There's no subtext, irony or satire to it. That's why it stinks.
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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0)   [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0) - Page 20 EmptyWed Jan 18, 2012 6:32 am

Sharky wrote:

While I wouldn't say the scripts are absolute rubbish (in fact I think there's a lot of clever stuff you're missing out on),

I've seen those movies both probably once a year since I was three, watched the behind the scenes, heard the commentaries, read the interviews. I doubt there's anything I'm missing out on. As I said before, for a long time I did think RETURNS was clever and loved it's take on the characters. I was blinded by the stuff I love in those two movies into ignoring their really massive flaws. Fact of the matter is that the scripts, RETURNS especially, were the result of Frankenscripts concocted from a lot of conflicting rewrites. Burton's direction elevates them -- but Burton's biggest weakness has probably always been story, with his strength being visuals. If he was a better director he would've taken a more definitive hand in crafting the character arcs into something comprehensible.
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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0)   [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0) - Page 20 EmptyWed Jan 18, 2012 6:33 am

Meh. Story's overrated. I prefer ideas, humour and visuals.

"Character arcs." How I hate that word. Shows how TV mentality has taken over.
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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0)   [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0) - Page 20 EmptyWed Jan 18, 2012 6:40 am

Sorry, but the idea that a character should develop consistently over a story, heck, even show some consistent frakkin motivation, is a lot older than fucking television. Sometimes I think you just say shit without actually thinking, and then try to back it up like you actually had some reasoning.

But if you prefer ideas/humour/visuals, then I can see why you love RETURNS. It does have great ideas, even if almost none of them develop or go anywhere (some limp to the finish, like Selina's psychological deterioration), it does have some great lines (the best being Walken's "And Bruce Wayne, why are you dressed up like Batman?") and great, great visuals -- Keaton standing up with the Bat-Signal behind him is fantastic, even if it makes NO DAMN SENSE ("Gee, I wonder who Batman really is?" "Maybe it's the rich guy with the fucking Bat-Signals positioned and pointed directly at his house?" "Nah")
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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0)   [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0) - Page 20 EmptyWed Jan 18, 2012 6:41 am

I wouldn't nominate that as the best line.

I do think the film has some great scenes. Scenes that actually get to play out longer than 15 seconds, which seems like the average in TDK. I also prefer the dialogue in the Burton films to the Nolan ones.

And I like the performances in RETURNS.
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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0)   [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0) - Page 20 EmptyWed Jan 18, 2012 7:03 am

Burton got a really, really great cast in RETURNS. It's definitely what makes the film as enjoyable to watch as it is. I mean, the Penguin just as no consistency whatsoever as a character in that movie, but Danny DeVito just SELLS it so much that you hardly notice.

As for the question of story vs. visuals, what I will say is that neither should really be superior to the other. Having great visuals does NOT make up for having a shitty script. On the other hand, one of Nolan's biggest missed opportunties with Batman has been iconic imagery -- especially in TDK. Batman is a character who has had some of the best artists of this century drawing him largely because he lends himself well to great, dramatic visuals. Nolan did a few nice ones in BEGINS, but I mean in TDK he has a shot of Batman standing on the edge of a building (ie. the easiest "cool dramatic shot of Batman" you could do) but he's just... standing there. His cape isn't billowing in the wind dramatically, it's not shrouded around him, it just hangs there behind him and Bale just stands there. Because Nolan got too married to his "realistic, grounded" aesthetic in TDK and didn't realize that why put your lead character in a cape if you're not going to use it??

Story and visuals should be an equal partnership in a film. Anything else is subpar filmmaking to some degree or another.
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Harmsway
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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0)   [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0) - Page 20 EmptyWed Jan 18, 2012 11:18 am

Loomis wrote:
It all seems much more OTT and "out-there" than THE DARK KNIGHT - more Schumacheresque, if you will.
THE DARK KNIGHT RISES does seem much bigger than its predecessors, but I was thinking less of Schumacher and more of James Cameron.
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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0)   [SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (1.0) - Page 20 EmptyWed Jan 18, 2012 1:11 pm

For the record I would never claim Nolan's bat-work as more adult/mature than Burtons but I would contest there is any less merit to it. Visually 'Returns's is stunning, the characters are beautifully created but I always get the impression that Burton loses interest once they are introduced, likewise the action erupts and promises a lot the music swells to triumpaht chorus and then it kinda peters out as if Burton is anxious to move to the next scene. There is tremendous stored potential and its a delicious feast for the eyes and ears but its also isolated and unfinished in a curious way.

By contrast Nolan's works is less visually stunning - TDK in particular loses out here - and the ideas are fewer and more laboured but no less mature or important - the overall presentation is much more akin to a journey and the investment and conviciton draws the audience in (well me anyways), I think a love and investment in the source material is much more palpable here - for better or worse but the bridge built to make this material accessible to the less ardent fan is more robust than Burton's.

Ultimately I have to concede whether one film or another is more or less adult or 'high brow' is a much lesser element for myself than how entertaining it is as a whole. This is really where I find Batman Begins, Batman (1989) and TDK trump the still excellent Batman Returns.

More importantly as regard this thread Batman Begins and TDK remain fully relevent to TDKR.....

Quote :
Harmsway Wrote:
THE DARK KNIGHT RISES does seem much bigger than its predecessors, but I was thinking less of Schumacher and more of James Cameron.

I think this is likely the case, total creative freedom is not always a positive thing, the scale and nature of the characters for TDKR is certainly going to be a more complex sell in the context of the Nolan-verse established to date, it will be interesting to see if Nolan has done enough to make it work or even if audiences will cut the nescessary slack to allow it.
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