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Professor Train
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PostSubject: Re: 1234567890   1234567890 - Page 2 EmptySat Oct 28, 2017 9:28 pm

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Last edited by Erica Ambler on Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: 1234567890   1234567890 - Page 2 EmptySat Oct 28, 2017 9:33 pm

Catalonia never was what the separatists are making out it was, anymore than Valencia was. It's astonishing to me that they've come this far. They're just a bunch of very bored but very vocal people. They are not in any way oppressed or controlled and they've been indulged too long.
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PostSubject: Re: 1234567890   1234567890 - Page 2 EmptySat Oct 28, 2017 9:39 pm

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PostSubject: Re: 1234567890   1234567890 - Page 2 EmptySun Oct 29, 2017 9:11 am

Santa wrote:
Catalonia never was what the separatists are making out it was, anymore than Valencia was. It's astonishing to me that they've come this far. They're just a bunch of very bored but very vocal people. They are not in any way oppressed or controlled and they've been indulged too long.

They were during the years of the Franco regime, surely.
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PostSubject: Re: 1234567890   1234567890 - Page 2 EmptySun Oct 29, 2017 9:18 am

Carles Puigdemont might request asylum from Belgium, since we are one of the few options within Europe that can offer him that. For whatever reason. That'll really improve the Belgo-Spanish relationship, I'm sure.
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PostSubject: Re: 1234567890   1234567890 - Page 2 EmptySun Oct 29, 2017 9:40 am

Did Manuel from Fawlty Towers ever express his opinions on the Catalan matter?
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PostSubject: Re: 1234567890   1234567890 - Page 2 EmptySun Oct 29, 2017 11:01 am

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PostSubject: Re: 1234567890   1234567890 - Page 2 EmptySun Oct 29, 2017 12:25 pm

CJB wrote:
Did Manuel from Fawlty Towers ever express his opinions on the Catalan matter?

Yes, he declared independence by a resolution just a few days ago.
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PostSubject: Re: 1234567890   1234567890 - Page 2 EmptySun Oct 29, 2017 1:24 pm

Erica Ambler wrote:
England has had a national parliament since the 13th century, Britain since the 16th, but many EU countries such as Germany, Italy and Belgium were formed less than 200 years ago. Greece apart, I think it's fair to say that parliament is a fairly alien concept on the continent.

That's part of the problem in Spain. Democracy is such a recent institution there that Madrid does not understand how it looks to those watching in Anglo-Saxon countries when the police injure a thousand citizens for merely attempting to vote. The obvious way forward here is a legal referendum in Catalonia, which the independence movement may well lose. However, the EU has already had its fingers burnt when it lost the UK, it second biggest financial contributor and the basis of many of its legal and financial institutions. Now it's administering regular punishment beatings in an attempt to prevent other EU countries following suit.

But they would not lose Catalonia in the event of it becoming independent, since it is their desire to remain within the EU.

It wasn't just people in Anglo-Saxon countries who were horrified by the violence. Our PM was one of the very few European leaders who actually publicly condemned the violence.
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PostSubject: Re: 1234567890   1234567890 - Page 2 EmptySun Oct 29, 2017 1:29 pm

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PostSubject: Re: 1234567890   1234567890 - Page 2 EmptySun Oct 29, 2017 2:26 pm

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PostSubject: Re: 1234567890   1234567890 - Page 2 EmptySun Oct 29, 2017 9:32 pm

Erica Ambler wrote:
I assumed the European Commisson spoke for Belgium these days; it completely supported the police brutality.

You assumed wrong.

Though it's pretty clear the European Commission isn't really enjoying either our PM or our secretary of state for migration making the (very mild) anti-Rajoy statements they have made so far.
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PostSubject: Re: 1234567890   1234567890 - Page 2 EmptySun Oct 29, 2017 9:45 pm

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PostSubject: Re: 1234567890   1234567890 - Page 2 EmptySun Oct 29, 2017 10:16 pm

Of course, there are internal political reasons for the fact that our government was a bit more brave in condemning the violence than most others. The chief among them the fact that the Flemish separatists are the biggest party in the ruling coalition and they feel a kinship to (among others) the Catalonian separatists and the Scottish separatists.
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PostSubject: Re: 1234567890   1234567890 - Page 2 EmptyMon Oct 30, 2017 6:05 am

Salomé wrote:
Santa wrote:
Catalonia never was what the separatists are making out it was, anymore than Valencia was. It's astonishing to me that they've come this far. They're just a bunch of very bored but very vocal people. They are not in any way oppressed or controlled and they've been indulged too long.

They were during the years of the Franco regime, surely.

Are you fucking kidding me? Franco died more than 40 years ago. They are not trying to separate from Franco run Spain.

Let's be clear, the oppression is coming from the Puigdemont camp. People in Catalonia who want to stay in Spain are terrified to speak because of the treatment they receive at the hands of separatist bullies. Yes, Rajoy handled the 'vote' badly, but there was violence on both sides and a lot of those very emotive pictures that apparently show Spanish police beating innocent citizens who merely want to express their legal right to vote sarcasm have been proven not to have been taken there and then.

Puigdemont is a moron but he's much better than that idiot Rajoy at handling the international press and had done a hell of a job at drumming up international sympathy for his fake cause. Please check the facts. Catalonia as he is demanding it never was an independent state. It is one of the most privileged states in Spain and until recently one of the most autonomous communities within the EU.
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PostSubject: Re: 1234567890   1234567890 - Page 2 EmptyMon Oct 30, 2017 7:18 am

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Last edited by Erica Ambler on Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: 1234567890   1234567890 - Page 2 EmptyMon Oct 30, 2017 11:28 am

Erica Ambler wrote:
Santa wrote:
a lot of those very emotive pictures that apparently show Spanish police beating innocent citizens who merely want to express their legal right to vote sarcasm  have been proven not to have been taken there and then.
Is that right? Can you point me to any discussion of this? The only investigation I've seen is here:

https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/10/12/spain-police-used-excessive-force-catalonia

As far as I know, the only basis for that are the claims made by the Spanish government itself, in an attempt to spin the very shocking images that were coming out of Catalonia that day.
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PostSubject: Re: 1234567890   1234567890 - Page 2 EmptyMon Oct 30, 2017 11:37 am

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PostSubject: Re: 1234567890   1234567890 - Page 2 EmptyMon Oct 30, 2017 2:33 pm

Erica Ambler wrote:
Salomé wrote:
As far as I know, the only basis for that are the claims made by the Spanish government itself, in an attempt to spin the very shocking images that were coming out of Catalonia that day.

The BBC did suggest that some footage and photos came from other incidents, see here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41677911



There was plenty of it in the Spanish press - I haven't Googled but for example: https://medium.com/dfrlab/electionwatch-fake-photos-in-catalonia-fe3f045df171

There was violence - on BOTH sides. The thing is that Puigdemont knew that Rajoy would do it and the idiot Spanish leader played right into his hands. The Spanish police handled it badly but Puigdemont and his minions, who had been warned that there would be trouble, didn't do anything to help their deluded followers. On the day they shut themselves safely away and rubbed their hands with glee as Rajoy handed his enemies a massive media advantage. I'm no more impressed with the way the Spanish government dealt with the situation than anyone else but, like many people here, I'm gobsmacked at the way the international press has been played by the separatists. Puigdemont is a master at that game.
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PostSubject: Re: 1234567890   1234567890 - Page 2 EmptyMon Oct 30, 2017 2:41 pm

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Last edited by Erica Ambler on Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: 1234567890   1234567890 - Page 2 EmptyMon Oct 30, 2017 4:06 pm

Erica Ambler wrote:
Santa wrote:
I'm gobsmacked at the way the international press has been played by the separatists.

I'm gobsmacked that you can spell separatists. Will you marry me?

Sigh. We've been down that road.
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PostSubject: Re: 1234567890   1234567890 - Page 2 EmptyMon Oct 30, 2017 5:13 pm

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PostSubject: Re: 1234567890   1234567890 - Page 2 EmptyWed Nov 01, 2017 10:47 am

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PostSubject: Re: 1234567890   1234567890 - Page 2 EmptyWed Nov 01, 2017 11:06 am

If nothing else, this is an interesting case study in the fragility of multinational states. No wonder China is on Madrid's side.

Also I take it Mr Puigdemont's barber is in Seville and he hasn't gotten round to seeing him in a while.
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PostSubject: Re: 1234567890   1234567890 - Page 2 EmptyWed Nov 01, 2017 9:13 pm

can we look forward to this in Scotland? Sturgeon getting bolshie and then we send what's left of the Army over the border and the Navy halfway to Faslane.
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