Daniel Craig Promises 'Skyfall' Won't Be An Emo Bond Flick

tiffanywint wrote:

Huh! Best stunt in the movie was Elvis getting his pants blown off. Wasn't that real?

About as real as that awful toupee on his head...the one on Connery's head looked more real...and that was 50 years ago....

trevanian wrote:

Quantum is the only movie since Dalton left that made me feel like I was watching something that originated with Fleming, and that's saying a lot considering how utterly miscast I find Craig.

Fleming would have given us a colorful scenario and colorful characters, and QUANTUM OF SOLACE fails to deliver on both counts. Indeed, there isn't a less interesting, entertaining film in the entire canon of Bond films than QUANTUM OF SOLACE. And that's saying something.

I agree, Harms.

I see more Fleming in DAF - with its panache, wit and zany characters - than I do in that turgid mess, QOS, with its ensemble of the dullest human beings ever wrought.

Mrs Aural Sects wrote:

About as real as that awful toupee on his head...the one on Connery's head looked more real...and that was 50 years ago....

Elvis's toupee is deliberately obvious. He is, quite possibly, the single least-respected villain in the series' continuity:

1) When we first meet him on the docks in Haiti, he attempts to stop Camille with a tough-guy act, but she pushes straight past him.

2a) He snatches the Universal Exports card away from the guard and calls the number on it, unwittignly activating the tracking device within.
2b) He then gives the guard hell for not calling him over to the gate when Bond arrived.

3) On the plane from Haiti to Austria, he attempts to start the conversation with Beam and Leiter. Everyone ignores him, and the conversation doesn't start until Greene decides to start it.

4) When the phone showing Bond's picture is passed around, Elvis fumbles the catch.

5) At the opera, Elvis is misty-eyed at the performance. He turns to one of thee other bodyguards, and is disappointed to see that the bodyguard does not share the same appreciation of the show.

6) When Camille hijacks the donation made to Greene, Elvis attempts to save the situation while Greene takes her aside. However, all eyes are firmly fixed on Greene and Camille.

7a) Fields trips him up, sending him tumblind down the stairs.
7b) His ridiculous hair is revealed to be a ridiculous toupee.

8) At the meeting when Medrano, Elvis is forced to wear a very unflattering foam neck collar.

9) When Bond attacks the hotel, Greene pulls Elvis aside and positions him. He does not simply place Elvis; he takes the time to extend Elvis' gun arm for him.

10) This one is a bit indirecty, but Bond does not even bother to confront Elvis (he never meets Elvis before this, but for all intents and purposes, he is totally unaware that Elvis is even associated with Greene).

11) In the explosion, his pants are blown off and his tighty whities are briefly visible.

Taken individually, they don't mean that much. But there's a clear pattern here: the other characters simply don't respect him at all. Normally I wouldn't say this, but there are so many instances of it happening that it's hard to ignore - Elvis is a gag character. The humour is just very subtle. Almost too subtle.

The concept of a villain using a seemingly humanitarian organization as a front to create a drought as the means of extortion...well, to me, that's very Fleming-esque. The pensive, quiet thoughts of Bond unraveling the villain's plan as he walks across the desert is Fleming. Bond unable to find a way out of a situation that he had gotten too deep into and turning his gun on himself...that's Fleming to the core. Bond describing how to keep to control yourself when the next kill is personal...Fleming.

There's A LOT in Quantum that's Fleming-esque. Forster was on to something in that respect. The problem is that the story and characters are so damn underdeveloped that the Fleming parts don't really make sense or resonate enough in the context they're presented in. Combine that with Forster's political sensibilities and the recent fads of "going rogue" and quick-cutting, and you have a film that's a bit of a mess.

Good summary Shadow, of Elvis the pathetic. I'm not sure though that Elvis is meant to be a gag character per se. QoS is basically a humourless film. I don't think a gag character would fit. Elvis rather strikes me as a combination of both pathetic and villainous - a quirky attempt at depicting villainy rendered pathetic. Elvis is allowed his privileged position because he is fiercely loyal to Greene, who is also a rather quirky villain but far more effectively deadly.

Forster himself is also quirky weird. I think on some level he related to both Greene and Elvis.

Question to Monkey Prisoner or anyone. I've never quite grasped what is going on here. Eg. the tracking device in the business card tracks exactly what? Clearly it establishes a connection with the phone number that dialed it, but how does this help Bond again? :scratch:

Quote :

2a) He snatches the Universal Exports card away from the guard and calls the number on it, unwittignly activating the tracking device within.

dr. strangelove wrote:

The concept of a villain using a seemingly humanitarian organization as a front to create a drought as the means of extortion...well, to me, that's very Fleming-esque. The pensive, quiet thoughts of Bond unraveling the villain's plan as he walks across the desert is Fleming. Bond unable to find a way out of a situation that he had gotten too deep into and turning his gun on himself...that's Fleming to the core. Bond describing how to keep to control yourself when the next kill is personal...Fleming.

There's A LOT in Quantum that's Fleming-esque. Forster was on to something in that respect. The problem is that the story and characters are so damn underdeveloped that the Fleming parts don't really make sense or resonate enough in the context they're presented in. Combine that with Forster's political sensibilities and the recent fads of "going rogue" and quick-cutting, and you have a film that's a bit of a mess.

I'd agree completely. That's probably why I prefer QOS to CR (not that I'm much fond of either). I'd add that another important Fleming element that's missing (and was missing in Craig's CR) is the outre aspects Fleming always gave his villains. Fleming's villains are always a bit over the top, quite deliberately. They are often ugly and seem somewhat animalistic or overweight when Bond first meets them. They often embody their villainous plot, which is also their greatest venal desire. For example, Goldfinger literally lusts for gold. I'd go so far as to say that Fleming's villains are his most vivid creations, more so than the Bond girls and much more so than Bond, who Fleming wanted to have a flat boring name and to be somewhat anonymous.

Both Craig movies (but QOS particularly) lack good villains. People complain about TLD's villains, but Necros was a brillaint creation (see "Hitman, Agent 47" for the influence that character has had on the wider world), and Koskov and Whittaker also had some interesting characterizations. Whittaker's military obsession was particularly well done (but maybe that's just because I'm an American Civil War buff). LeChiffre in CR at least weeps blood, not that's not well used. QOS has an absurd sidekick in Elvis and a silly Frenchman in Greene who is not grotesque nor even particularly threatening. Medrano is the closest thing to a Fleming villain, but his interests seem confined solely to raping women - and Fleming never made his villains that primitive.

Re: tiff - It allows Bond to track Greene's chartered jet to Bregenz, and follow the GPS signal on his Volvo to the opera house.

Harmsway wrote:

trevanian wrote:

Quantum is the only movie since Dalton left that made me feel like I was watching something that originated with Fleming, and that's saying a lot considering how utterly miscast I find Craig.

Fleming would have given us a colorful scenario and colorful characters, and QUANTUM OF SOLACE fails to deliver on both counts. Indeed, there isn't a less interesting, entertaining film in the entire canon of Bond films than QUANTUM OF SOLACE. And that's saying something.

TWINE takes the cake for me.

Sharky wrote:

Re: tiff - It allows Bond to track Greene's chartered jet to Bregenz, and follow the GPS signal on his Volvo to the opera house.

Excuse my thick-headedness here but I'm still wondering, how does it do all this.

Elvis uses his phone to dial the number on the card which activates a tracking device. Fine, but Bond could just as easily have called the number and activated the tracking device, so clearly the dialing of the number by Elvis allows Bond to track Elvis' phone but here I get lost. How does having a lock on Elvis' phone help so much? :scratch:

tiffanywint wrote:

"Only James Bond—the secret agent who foiled a plot to destroy London with nuclear missiles—can make water more affordable for Bolivians!

It's very narrow minded of the writer. Obviously the brains - Quantum - behind the attempted terrorist attack at Miami Airport in CR are the same people behind initiating a Poker Tournament to regain funds. This same group has a division who is wanting to take control of the "world's most precious resource". Because of it's scarcity, Bolivians have no choice but to pay up. By increasing the price of water to 60%, the Bolivians are essentially funding Quantum's future terrorist projects. It hasn't anything to do with liberal politics. Plus, it's only one of the plots of the film - Quantum of Solace is about Bond finding his quantum of solace, and in the process, involves himself in a much bigger scheme involving the terrorist organisation he first encountered in the film before.

FieldsMan wrote:

tiffanywint wrote:

"Only James Bond—the secret agent who foiled a plot to destroy London with nuclear missiles—can make water more affordable for Bolivians!

It's very narrow minded of the writer. Obviously the brains - Quantum - behind the attempted terrorist attack at Miami Airport in CR are the same people behind initiating a Poker Tournament to regain funds. This same group has a division who is wanting to take control of the "world's most precious resource". Because of it's scarcity, Bolivians have no choice but to pay up. By increasing the price of water to 60%, the Bolivians are essentially funding Quantum's future terrorist projects. It hasn't anything to do with liberal politics. Plus, it's only one of the plots of the film - Quantum of Solace is about Bond finding his quantum of solace, and in the process, involves himself in a much bigger scheme involving the terrorist organisation he first encountered in the film before.

We know that Quantum did XYZ in another movie, but their grand plan in QOS was indeed to make Bolivians pay more for water. There were any number of dastardly schemes that could've been concocted to achieve the aim of getting Quantum more money. Even Prisoner Monkey could've come up with something more interesting.

Imagine there was a Star Wars movie - let's call it Quantum of Yoda - where the Empire was plotting to make Hoth's ice 50% icier. The fact that they blew up Alderaan in another movie doesn't change the fact they blow chunks in Quantum of Yoda.

CJB wrote:

FieldsMan wrote:

tiffanywint wrote:

"Only James Bond—the secret agent who foiled a plot to destroy London with nuclear missiles—can make water more affordable for Bolivians!

It's very narrow minded of the writer. Obviously the brains - Quantum - behind the attempted terrorist attack at Miami Airport in CR are the same people behind initiating a Poker Tournament to regain funds. This same group has a division who is wanting to take control of the "world's most precious resource". Because of it's scarcity, Bolivians have no choice but to pay up. By increasing the price of water to 60%, the Bolivians are essentially funding Quantum's future terrorist projects. It hasn't anything to do with liberal politics. Plus, it's only one of the plots of the film - Quantum of Solace is about Bond finding his quantum of solace, and in the process, involves himself in a much bigger scheme involving the terrorist organisation he first encountered in the film before.

We know that Quantum did XYZ in another movie, but their grand plan in QOS was indeed to make Bolivians pay more for water. There were any number of dastardly schemes that could've been concocted to achieve the aim of getting Quantum more money. Even Prisoner Monkey could've come up with something more interesting.

Imagine there was a Star Wars movie - let's call it Quantum of Yoda - where the Empire was plotting to make Hoth's ice 50% icier. The fact that they blew up Alderaan in another movie doesn't change the fact they blow chunks in Quantum of Yoda.

The fact is that Quantum has been established as a terrorist organisation who look to finance their affairs. Extorting the money slyly from an unsuspecting population as opposed to investors a la TSWLM and YOLT to fund their future terrorist attacks is what Bond needs to prevent - the focus isn't on Bolivia's liberation - it's still Bond thwarting a plan of extortion and the potential of future attacks. And given the beef Quantum has with Bond, and Yusef's connection through Vesper, London would be one of those likely targets for them.

No cinema audience in the world watched QOS and thought "golly gee, Bond has to stop these dudes from taking over Bolivia's water because at some point in the future they might do something! Maybe even to London!"

You're just demonstrating how weak the plot is.

tiffanywint wrote:

Excuse my thick-headedness here but I'm still wondering, how does it do all this.

Elvis uses his phone to dial the number on the card which activates a tracking device. Fine, but Bond could just as easily have called the number and activated the tracking device, so clearly the dialing of the number by Elvis allows Bond to track Elvis' phone but here I get lost. How does having a lock on Elvis' phone help so much? :scratch:

Because if Bond called the number and presented it to Elvis/whoever, there is a chance that the irst thing they would do is sweep it for electronic devices. This way, they sweep it and are satisfied, then call the number and unwittingly activate the device they were looking for.

CJB wrote:

No cinema audience in the world watched QOS and thought "golly gee, Bond has to stop these dudes from taking over Bolivia's water because at some point in the future they might do something! Maybe even to London!"

I think that, on a certain level, Bolivia was a good choice. It spoke to what I think is one of the most fundamental aspects of Bond's character.

Far too many modern heroes are reluctant to involve themselves in the affairs of others. How often have we seen films and television shows where the hero needs the villain to make things personal before he goes after the villain? James Bond doesn't do that. The fact that evil exists to begin with is reason enough for him to seek it out and destroy it.

Yes, I know QOS had some personal elements in it. But putting those aside for a second, I think Bolivia was and apt choice because people don't really care about it. Nevertheless, Bond was willing to pursue a villain there. It mirrors his line from CASINO ROYALE about how he thought one less bomb-maker in the world would be a good thing: Bond will go to the ends of the earth without thought and without question to eradicate the next great evil.

CJB wrote:

No cinema audience in the world watched QOS and thought "golly gee, Bond has to stop these dudes from taking over Bolivia's water because at some point in the future they might do something! Maybe even to London!"

I think 'might' is the wrong word. They will do something, which is why Bond thwarts them. In that case then, DN's plot is flimsy, because he might use the space program to manipulate the different powers to attack each other. Of course, Bond stops them in the nick of time, but in QOS, Quantum was in the initial stages of their overall scheme.

And no, I'm demonstrating the narrow-mindedness of a select few audience members.

CJB wrote:

I agree, Harms.

I see more Fleming in DAF - with its panache, wit and zany characters - than I do in that turgid mess, QOS, with its ensemble of the dullest human beings ever wrought.

Hell, there's more Fleming in DIE ANOTHER DAY than there is in QUANTUM OF SOLACE.

Makeshift Python wrote:

Harmsway wrote:

trevanian wrote:

Quantum is the only movie since Dalton left that made me feel like I was watching something that originated with Fleming, and that's saying a lot considering how utterly miscast I find Craig.

Fleming would have given us a colorful scenario and colorful characters, and QUANTUM OF SOLACE fails to deliver on both counts. Indeed, there isn't a less interesting, entertaining film in the entire canon of Bond films than QUANTUM OF SOLACE. And that's saying something.

TWINE takes the cake for me.

I recently watched TWINE. It was more watchable than QUANTUM.

The difference is America's rockets are more important than Bolivia's water. Also Dr. No wasn't as boring as the bug eyed French dude who swings an axe like a girl.

So yeah... a 50 year old, low budget movie spanks an expensive 2008 action flick.

If after two films you can't make your villains odious or your audience worried about what they're capable of... well, frankly, you've got some shitty ass villains.

I agree that DN is a stronger film, but nah. Greene is a great villain and his scheme holds up well with me. In fact, I like it more than all the 70s Bond films.

The 70's Bond films featured the biggest tits though.

I actually thought Greene was a good villain. He wasn't physically intimidating or overwhelmingly charismatic like the best of Bond villains, but there was something creepy and slightly deranged about the guy. The "ants under my skin" comment was icky, and there is the scene in Bregenz (?) where Leiter asks Bean if "we really want to get in bed with this guy" and Bean responds, pithily, "Right. We should only deal with nice guys." At this point Greene pulls away from the curb in his car while looking out the window. The look on his face was--how do you say it?--unpleasant. I would also add that Amalric is a good actor and did a good job in QOS.

Yes, the film has some serious flaws (politicization, absence of humor, barmy editing, the worst ever title track), but Greene is not among them, IMO.

FieldsMan wrote:

I agree that DN is a stronger film, but nah. Greene is a great villain and his scheme holds up well with me. In fact, I like it more than all the 70s Bond films.

On balance I like QoS more than CR but both lack too much of what I look for in a Bond film to rate very highly....the argument of how much 'Flemingness' each has is kinda irrelevent, imo neither excell though it is a symptom of other movies in the series, but for me despite the source material, or lack thereof I'll give the nod to Quantum on that level soley for the treatment of the central character.

However I have issues with both the scheme and villain of the piece. The revolutionary nature of Bolivia as portrayed really makes deals and agreements very fragile, as schemes go it smacks more of investment risk than down and dirty villiany, so much of it is completely out of Greene's hands - the proverbial christmas tree - and, fair or not, its all of zero interest to a British '00 unit, indeed whereas CR furnished a reason for Bond's inclusion in CR (his card playing skill) it doesn't carry forward to QoS, Quantum exists but that alone or even coupled with the latter completely unforseen and accidental discovery of the water scheme in no way justifies the use of a license to kill, it would probably struggle to interest an oridnary field agent for long.

Greene himself is slimy and pretty well played, in isolation I think he works pretty well, but you can't divorce him from his operation and he never seems sufficiently in control to be really threatening, his henchmen (plural) are a joke (deliberately in one case perhaps) but it is a consistent reflection of everything Greene touches, it seems Bond doesn't so much overcome his organisation as simply survive long enough, for them to trip and kill themselves. I am sure Fleming would have ensured the threat was more lethal, or more perverse or in some basic way interesting..... It all boils down to that writers strike imo, the film was rushed out of the gate in a scrappy and unfinished state too unfinished to be polished on the fly even assuming the right person was avaliable to do so imo

Perilagu Khan wrote:

I actually thought Greene was a good villain. He wasn't physically intimidating or overwhelmingly charismatic like the best of Bond villains, but there was something creepy and slightly deranged about the guy. The "ants under my skin" comment was icky, and there is the scene in Bregenz (?) where Leiter asks Bean if "we really want to get in bed with this guy" and Bean responds, pithily, "Right. We should only deal with nice guys." At this point Greene pulls away from the curb in his car while looking out the window. The look on his face was--how do you say it?--unpleasant. I would also add that Amalric is a good actor and did a good job in QOS.

Yes, the film has some serious flaws (politicization, absence of humor, barmy editing, the worst ever title track), but Greene is not among them, IMO.

The issue for me is that he's horribly underused and we only get one scene where he and Bond interact and but it's very brief. There's a huge bulk of the flick where he isn't even around so when he finally reappears it's like "oh yeah, he's the guy behind the scheme". I like Greene in all his scenes, still I wish the character was better featured.

Also, I liked how deranged he came off swinging that axe like a mad man.

Harmsway wrote:

Makeshift Python wrote:

Harmsway wrote:

trevanian wrote:

Quantum is the only movie since Dalton left that made me feel like I was watching something that originated with Fleming, and that's saying a lot considering how utterly miscast I find Craig.

Fleming would have given us a colorful scenario and colorful characters, and QUANTUM OF SOLACE fails to deliver on both counts. Indeed, there isn't a less interesting, entertaining film in the entire canon of Bond films than QUANTUM OF SOLACE. And that's saying something.

TWINE takes the cake for me.

I recently watched TWINE. It was more watchable than QUANTUM.

Different strokes.

He was a weak, poorly-written character.

I'm not sure why FM was bothering to compare QUANTUM to DR. NO, though.

FieldsMan wrote:

Plus, it's only one of the plots of the film - Quantum of Solace is about Bond finding his quantum of solace

I know that that was kind of one of Michael Wilson's talking points regarding the movie, but I cringed every time I heard him use it, and it doesn't sound much better coming from fans either. It's a sh**e title, and MGW and company desperately tried to force-feed the reasoning for the title, and neither explanation works very well. A Bond film should never be about Bond trying to find "solace". If I wanted to watch a program about peace and security I'd watch a nuclear disarmament conference on C-SPAN. A better title would've been....well, just about anything.

CJB wrote:

Imagine there was a Star Wars movie - let's call it Quantum of Yoda - where the Empire was plotting to make Hoth's ice 50% icier. The fact that they blew up Alderaan in another movie doesn't change the fact they blow chunks in Quantum of Yoda.

ROTFLMAO!!! Best comeback I've read around here in ages!