Lance Armstrong stripped of 7 Tour De France medals

This guy is a total, complete, 100%, grade-A sack of flaming dog-squeeze.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/22/us-cycling-armstrong-idUSBRE89L0HC20121022

He defrauded people out of hundreds of millions of dollars, created a foundation based on nothing but lies, didn't live at all by the advice he gave others (just the opposite, really), successfully sued media organizations for reporting that he used steroids, lied to and about the French cycling association, cheated in order to win, actively pushed other people to lie for him, pushed other people in his cycling group to use steroids, and provided material support for an international illegal drug ring. He's worth less than the slime slugs leave behind when they take a crap. He's garbage. Pure, unadulterated garbage.

Agreed on most counts but it's a bit hard to pick on him for Livestrong.

Jack Wade wrote:

Agreed on most counts but it's a bit hard to pick on him for Livestrong.

No, it's quite easy to pick on him for LIvestrong. Livestrong is a path....a way of life...an idea to help educate people about the best, healthiest way to live a strong and happy life. Only problem was that Armstrong himself was not following that path. That path that got him to recover from ball-cancer was a path filled with lies, deceit, supression, illegal steroids, perjury...all wrapped up in a big box with a pretty boy that called itself LIVESTRONG. Lance lived a life that doesn't even comport with what Livestrong advocates. Lance got to where he is in life by C-H-E-A-T-I-N-G! You can't seperate the foundation from the man in this instance.

One of the cashiers at my local grocery used to carry an assortment of braclets on him while he was working. You know: "Peace", "Breast Cancer", "Livestrong", "Marriage Equality"....he's got a wristband for every cause. But last week I noticed he'd taken the LIVESTRONG bracelet off. He said he had and wasn't sure whether he'd ever wear it again because he felt like Armstrong betrayed everything he ever claimed to belive in for himself and others. Millions and millions of people were duped into believing Lance had some answers and he didn't.

I wasn't supporting LIVESTRONG anyway. I can't stand trendy causes, which is why I won't be supporting that new KONY-2012 initiative that God's Children group is restarting next moth, and it's why I don't wear pink ribbons to support the Susan G. Kolmen run for Breast Cancer Awareness programs. My cashier asked me today if I wanted to donate a dollar to the foundation and I said "No. Susan Kolmen has plenty of money." Plus, I won't give to any organization that performs abortions, or enables an abortion to take place, so that nulllifies Planned Parenthood and Susan G. Kolmen. It's also why I don't wear of of that trendy (RED) garbage that Bono and his celebrity friends tried to get us to purchase with the explicit assurance that by paying 50 dollars fora t-shirt made by little poor kids in a sweat shop factory over in Cambodia, that I might be able to eradicate AIDS in Africa in just 6 months. Yeah, good luck with that.

When these allegations first came up, I was sceptical. I seem to recall reading somewhere that the guy who made them - Flloyd someone-or-other - had a bad history with Armstrong or that he himself had been caught cheating or smoe such, and the whole thing seemed like it was driven by petty jealousy or revenge; the last time an athlete made allegations of this magniture, he was simply doing it to get back at people he thought had wronged him. But I was shocked at just how extensive the evidence against Armstrong was.

What is truly disappointing in this is that blood doping is so sophisticated that a lot of the evidence is based on urine samples from thirteen years ago, and the sport's anti=doping commission is only just developing the ability to test it for drugs that were used then.

Gravity's Silhouette wrote:

Jack Wade wrote:

Agreed on most counts but it's a bit hard to pick on him for Livestrong.

No, it's quite easy to pick on him for LIvestrong. Livestrong is a path....a way of life...an idea to help educate people about the best, healthiest way to live a strong and happy life. Only problem was that Armstrong himself was not following that path. That path that got him to recover from ball-cancer was a path filled with lies, deceit, supression, illegal steroids, perjury...all wrapped up in a big box with a pretty boy that called itself LIVESTRONG. Lance lived a life that doesn't even comport with what Livestrong advocates. Lance got to where he is in life by C-H-E-A-T-I-N-G! You can't seperate the foundation from the man in this instance.

all very true, and I agree with you entirely,
but there are also so some interesting grey aspects, even if they are only hypothetical
I gather that he was a cheat before he got ball cancer, in which case I have no sympathy for him
but say he was clean before he got the cancer and had to take substances which are illegal in a sporting context, but are used effectively to fight cancer
I can see how that might muddy the moral waters in a persons mind
as in "how can taking something I was recomended to take and that saved my life, be wrong?"

I've also been thinking about the effect it might have on other riders who may not initially have been cheats, possibly Jan Ullrich?
"Ullrich cited his failure to defeat Armstrong as why he fell into depression next year.
in May 2002, Ullrich had his driver's license revoked after a drunk driving incident"

it may also have pushed him into cheating
he was picked to be the next big thing until Armstrong superceded him
maybe pre 2002 he wasn't a drug cheat, but his failure to beat Armstrong drove him too it?
1996 he was second to Arne Riis, who has admitted being on drugs at the time, 1998 he was second to Pantani, who was caught later
2000 & 2001 he was second to Armstrong and may have known, or at least strongly suspected, Armstrong was a cheat
maybe he really was one of the greats and should have 5 titles and all the kudos
maybe without Armstrong he could have gone on to win 7 titles instead of Armstrong?
no wonder it ate him up inside

on the other hand he was a team mate of Riis and the whole team may have been on it all the way along
who knows
:suspect:

Prisoner Monkeys wrote:

When these allegations first came up, I was sceptical. I seem to recall reading somewhere that the guy who made them - Flloyd someone-or-other - had a bad history with Armstrong or that he himself had been caught cheating or smoe such, and the whole thing seemed like it was driven by petty jealousy or revenge; the last time an athlete made allegations of this magniture, he was simply doing it to get back at people he thought had wronged him. But I was shocked at just how extensive the evidence against Armstrong was.

What is truly disappointing in this is that blood doping is so sophisticated that a lot of the evidence is based on urine samples from thirteen years ago, and the sport's anti=doping commission is only just developing the ability to test it for drugs that were used then.

back in 1999 I was working at a place where one of my colleagues was into cycling and a friend of Stephen Swart
I mentioned that I was taking a passing interest in Le Tour on the tele and how it looked like Armstrong would win that year
he told me that Swart used to ride on the same team as Armstrong and had told him how Armstrong was a blood doper, how they all used to be woken up in the middle of the night to spend some time on the excercycle to avoid blood clotting
Swart has been saying publicly for years that Armstrong was a cheat but he was ignored
:bounce:

I remember when the allegations first went public about him back in 2003, or 2004. At the time I urged President Bush to launch a nuclear missile strike against France for lying about an American hero. The amount of wreckage, and-near wreckage, that this man has caused is incalculable. Imagine the consequences if Bush launched a nuclear attack against France and it was later found out that France was right and Armstrong had been lying the entire time? The ramifications! Thank God I was wrong that time and the President didn't respond to my Internet posting, but just imagine the consequences the next time I suggest nuclear war and a president takes me up on it.

Lance Armstrong is an American tragedy. A disgraceful excuse for a human being.

Gravity's Silhouette wrote:

I remember when the allegations first went public about him back in 2003, or 2004. At the time I urged President Bush to launch a nuclear missile strike against France for lying about an American hero. The amount of wreckage, and-near wreckage, that this man has caused is incalculable. Imagine the consequences if Bush launched a nuclear attack against France and it was later found out that France was right and Armstrong had been lying the entire time? The ramifications! Thank God I was wrong that time and the President didn't respond to my Internet posting, but just imagine the consequences the next time I suggest nuclear war and a president takes me up on it.

Lance Armstrong is an American tragedy. A disgraceful excuse for a human being.

which reminds me of one of my favourite Halloween episodes of the Simpsons,
where the French nuke the US for referring to them as frogs,
the missile silo is under the Eiffel Tower
and as the French Generals begin to laugh fendishly, their necks swell and contact... like bull frogs
Homer is the only survivor, so becoming the Homega Man

wikipedia says

“Fernando Escartín is a Spanish former road racing cyclist.
He won a stage and finished third overall in the 1999 Tour de France.
Of those who finished on the podium in the era in which Lance Armstrong won the Tour de France (1999-2005), Escartín is the sole rider not to be implicated in a doping scandal…”

I was having a look into this yesterday afternoon, while I recuperated from buying a new car (after some distracted woman who I had noticed was following me too close for some time crumpled my rear left corner when I came to turn right) and having a molar out (it had split in half – I blame Mexican corn chips)

You can take that back a further three years as well, Andreas Kloden and Joseba Beloki are the only other two not to be caught and punished in some way

Beloki was implicated in Operation Puerto, but that was after a big accident in 2003, which pretty much ended his career, otherwise he’s in line for history rewrite featuring a glorious hatrick of Tour titles ending with a tragic accident

Kloden could be 2004 and 2006 Tour champion (crashed out in 2005), there’s only a one liner about possible doping
“In 2009 allegations emerged claiming that Andreas Klöden used the Freiburg University Clinic for an illegal blood transfusion during the 2006 Tour de France”
But that doesn’t seem to have gone anywhere

Gravity's Silhouette wrote:

Thank God I was wrong that time and the President didn't respond to my Internet posting

I disagree. Would anyone have noticed if France were nuked? Besides, exposing Lance is as unAmerican as it gets.

Perhaps the United States Anti-Doping Agency is a division of DGSE?

Erica Ambler wrote:

Gravity's Silhouette wrote:

Thank God I was wrong that time and the President didn't respond to my Internet posting

I disagree. Would anyone have noticed if France were nuked? Besides, exposing Lance is as unAmerican as it gets.

Please don't misunderstand. I fully agree that France should be vaporized. It's just that I don't want them to be nuked for the wrong reasons. Okay, that still doesn't make any sense because there are no "wrong reasons" for nuking France. My only regret with A VIEW TO A KILL was that Bond didn't punch out a mime before stealing the taxi cab. Any country that considers Jerry Lewis a national treasure isn't fit for survival. But they did give us Sophie Marceau, so maybe they're not all bad.

Gravity's Silhouette wrote:

maybe they're not all bad.

I disagree.

Erica Ambler wrote:

Gravity's Silhouette wrote:

maybe they're not all bad.

I disagree.

Don't both Lynch and Haneke get a significant amount of their production funds from French producers?

True. But Santa is somewhere in France so I'm afraid sacrifices will have to be made by everyone if I'm to nail her. It's for the greater good.

Erica Ambler wrote:

Gravity's Silhouette wrote:

Thank God I was wrong that time and the President didn't respond to my Internet posting

I disagree. Would anyone have noticed if France were nuked? Besides, exposing Lance is as unAmerican as it gets.

Perhaps the United States Anti-Doping Agency is a division of DGSE?

Could very well be.

I'm not bothered by Lance in the slightest. The whole sport was riddled with doping, but Lance managed to pass over 200 doping tests, while other top-level peers were flunking the same tests.

Lance was an uber-competitor, competing at an elite level where winning is paramount, and where to the victor go immense riches and other sundry spoils. Lance had both the peddling and the doping regimens down pat. He was alpha.

Now he's been outed, but he's still got his millions and his victories, even if sporting bureaucrats strike a red pen through his name. I find the howling from sponsors and various sporting bodies to be quite rich. They are adept at covering bureaucratic and corporate asses. And of course Lance had to plead the 5th on his doping. That's part of the game. If you admit to it the game is over. It's not his job to incriminate himself. The sponsorship money would dry up right away and the sponsors would be pissed that he blew their cozy arrangments by opening his big mouth.

As long as high performance athletics attracts hundreds of millions or billions in revenues, athletes will do what it takes to win. Fleming's Bond took benezdrine tablets to get a competive edge in his "sport". The top level guys are always looking for an edge.

A drug culture exists in all high-performance athletics, both individual and team sports. I swear virtually all hockey players are addicted to cold remedies whether they have a cold or not. Can't risk getting one apparently. And all of these sports are of course rife with politics too.

I don't think Lance is even mildly schocked that things have finally been exposed. He knows the game. He moves on. He'll sleep very well, I'm sure.

I'm taking a pragmatic view here. At Lance's level of competition there are no innocents.

tiffanywint wrote:

Erica Ambler wrote:

Gravity's Silhouette wrote:

Thank God I was wrong that time and the President didn't respond to my Internet posting

I disagree. Would anyone have noticed if France were nuked? Besides, exposing Lance is as unAmerican as it gets.

Perhaps the United States Anti-Doping Agency is a division of DGSE?

Could very well be.

I'm not bothered by Lance in the slightest. The whole sport was riddled with doping, but Lance managed to pass over 200 doping tests, while other top-level peers were flunking the same tests.

Lance was an uber-competitor, competing at an elite level where winning is paramount, and where to the victor go immense riches and other sundry spoils. Lance had both the peddling and the doping regimens down pat. He was alpha.

Now he's been outed, but he's still got his millions and his victories, even if sporting bureaucrats strike a red pen through his name. I find the howling from sponsors and various sporting bodies to be quite rich. They are adept at covering bureaucratic and corporate asses. And of course Lance had to plead the 5th on his doping. That's part of the game. If you admit to it the game is over. It's not his job to incriminate himself. The sponsorship money would dry up right away and the sponsors would be pissed that he blew their cozy arrangments by opening his big mouth.

As long as high performance athletics attracts hundreds of millions or billions in revenues, athletes will do what it takes to win. Fleming's Bond took benezdrine tablets to get a competive edge in his "sport". The top level guys are always looking for an edge.

A drug culture exists in all high-performance athletics, both individual and team sports. I swear virtually all hockey players are addicted to cold remedies whether they have a cold or not. Can't risk getting one apparently. And all of these sports are of course rife with politics too.

I don't think Lance is even mildly schocked that things have finally been exposed. He knows the game. He moves on. He'll sleep very well, I'm sure.

I'm taking a pragmatic view here. At Lance's level of competition there are no innocents.

That there is a high level of doping in cycling sport was always well known and a public secret. Some presenters feel stupid that they have been duped into believing that certain members of this sport have lied to them.

Lance Armstrong was always accused and based upon actual evidence they would never have caught him. What they needed were a lot of cheating cyclists that pointed their fingers. Those are the guys who should be banned for life as well and have their titles away too. I prefer Armstrong everyday over those so-called witnesses who gladly participated in the whole circus. And they still have to find one positive dopingsample so Armstrong was on the top of his game there as well.

In my vision they should stop with the whole cycling for a year and figure out how to check for doping besides a urine sample, which apperently can be cheated with as has been proven. If they cannot find a way to prove it then accept the cheating or stop with the sport alltogether.

I rather like Tiff's position that Lance is still an Alpha Male, only at doping rather than cycling. :)

I should point out that I say this as someone who thinks riding 14 miles a day is manly.

tiffanywint wrote:

Could very well be.

I'm not bothered by Lance in the slightest. The whole sport was riddled with doping, but Lance managed to pass over 200 doping tests, while other top-level peers were flunking the same tests.

As long as high performance athletics attracts hundreds of millions or billions in revenues, athletes will do what it takes to win. Fleming's Bond took benezdrine tablets to get a competive edge in his "sport". The top level guys are always looking for an edge.

A drug culture exists in all high-performance athletics, both individual and team sports. I swear virtually all hockey players are addicted to cold remedies whether they have a cold or not. Can't risk getting one apparently. And all of these sports are of course rife with politics too.

I don't think Lance is even mildly shocked that things have finally been exposed. He knows the game. He moves on. He'll sleep very well, I'm sure.

I think not, having people look at you sideways for the rest of your life will take it's toll
;)

much of what you say is sad but true however there is no comparison to Flemings Bond
Bond is not expected to play by any rules, nor does he profess to, so he is neither a cheat or a hypocrit, Armstrong is
:evil:

saint mark wrote:

That there is a high level of doping in cycling sport was always well known and a public secret. Some presenters feel stupid that they have been duped into believing that certain members of this sport have lied to them.

Lance Armstrong was always accused and based upon actual evidence they would never have caught him. What they needed were a lot of cheating cyclists that pointed their fingers. Those are the guys who should be banned for life as well and have their titles away too. I prefer Armstrong everyday over those so-called witnesses who gladly participated in the whole circus. And they still have to find one positive dopingsample so Armstrong was on the top of his game there as well.

In my vision they should stop with the whole cycling for a year and figure out how to check for doping besides a urine sample, which apperently can be cheated with as has been proven. If they cannot find a way to prove it then accept the cheating or stop with the sport alltogether.

a disappointing attitude
you prefer a cheating lying hypocrit over a cheat who admits they were wrong
:scratch:

Stephen Swart got out of pro cycling because of the doping, he was an eye witness to Armstrong cheating and had been speaking out about it for over a decade, but for a long time nobody listened...

Seve wrote:

I think not, having people look at you sideways for the rest of your life will take it's toll
;)

You are right of course. There is a price to pay, but I don't think its anything he can't handle. He knows the game, and there's lots of people that aren't offended by him. I'd do business with him, if I thought there was still a buck to be made. He seems like a decent sort and there is sure no doubting his leadership skills and work ethic, not to mention an honest humanitarian/charitable bent.

Seve wrote:

much of what you say is sad but true however there is no comparison to Flemings Bond
Bond is not expected to play by any rules, nor does he profess to, so he is neither a cheat or a hypocrit, Armstrong is
:evil:

The comparison I was making with Bond is simply that high-performance athletes are always looking for an edge, but bye the bye, I don't consider Armstrong a cheat or a hypocrite either. Everyone knew at the time that the sport was rife with doping. If Armstrong's a hypocrite, then they are all hypocrites, athletes sponsors, sanctioning bodies, fans, polticians posing for pictures with him, sports media that breathlessly reported his achievements, Sheryl Crow, the thousands who slapped him on the back and said "good show Lance", his loyal dog for that matter......

The reality of high-performance sport is that drugs are part of the equation. So the testing continues and anyone caught will pay a penalty. Every baseball slugger of note in the last 15 years has been implicated in performance enhancing drug scandals, yet the testing continues and they are still getting caught. Witness one, Melky Cabrera, of the pending World Series Champion San Francisco Giants. Poor Melky, MVP of the 2012 All-Star game and National League Batting Leader got caught this year. He served his 50 games. He'll be back next year. If he gets caught again, he might get kicked out of the game, but still they do it. It's a calculated risk that many of them are willing to take, because we fans cheer every powerful swing of the bat they take, and sponsors and teams write them big fat cheques for their prodigious accomplishments. Everyone wants to win!!!!

I don't think here is anything to be done, except keep-up with the testing, and keep giving out suspensions, and life goes on.

tiffanywint wrote:

Seve wrote:

I think not, having people look at you sideways for the rest of your life will take it's toll
;)

You are right of course. There is a price to pay, but I don't think its anything he can't handle. .

crying kid - "daddy, the other kids were teasing me all day saying you were a cheating, lying, hypocrit, what does tha mean?
and why are they abusing me because of something you did?"
:(

tiffanywint wrote:

[but bye the bye, I don't consider Armstrong a cheat or a hypocrite either.

you need to look up a dictionary then
and read some of Lances comments and pronoucements on the subject
;)

tiffanywint wrote:

Everyone knew at the time that the sport was rife with doping. If Armstrong's a hypocrite, then they are all hypocrites, athletes sponsors, sanctioning bodies, fans, polticians posing for pictures with him, sports media that breathlessly reported his achievements, Sheryl Crow, the thousands who slapped him on the back and said "good show Lance".......

yes he is and if they knew, then yes they are
:oops:

[quote="Seve"]

a disappointing attitude
you prefer a cheating lying hypocrit over a cheat who admits they were wrong
:scratch:
[quote]

They are both hypocrits but the one was sold out by others who tried to cover their behinds. In my view they should all be taken down and they deserve NO mercy either. Ban for life and all titels and wins taken away same as the guy they told upon. I dislike folks seeling out folks for their own gain, you find that a dissapointing attitude I do not care.

I dislike the "sport" for a long time due to the hypocrisy of all involved. And as long as nobody hung out the dirty laundry all was well. Now people find out that doping was organised as well. There is a shock.

saint mark wrote:

They are both hypocrits but the one was sold out by others who tried to cover their behinds.

No, not really. They just weren't willing to go down on this by themselves and they weren't going to "take one for the team" and let Armstrong get away with his reputation being intact.

Quote :

In my view they should all be taken down and they deserve NO mercy either. Ban for life and all titels and wins taken away same as the guy they told upon. I dislike folks seeling out folks for their own gain, you find that a dissapointing attitude I do not care.

I think most of them have been banned from the sport and had whatever awards they had stripped away. But Armstrong deserves to be singled out for special criticism.

#1 He was the face of the American cycling team. Like being the quarterback on an elite NFL team, you are expected to "represent" in all facets of the game: on the field, with the media, local charity work, etc....Lance was the poster boy for the American cycling team. You cannot accept all the rewards that go with that honor and accept none of the blame.

#2 Read the report. He was the RINGLEADER of an international, illegal drug smuggling ring that helped athletes dope up. Not only did he dope, but he pressured others to dope and provided them with the materials to do so. That takes him from being simply a user to an actual deal and smuggler.

#3 His LiveStrong foundation was built upon lies and deceit. He was a fraud. He taught other people how to "live strong" while all along he was cheating, and taking short-cuts and banned substances in order to compete in cycling. Would he have won 7 titles without the doping? Apparently not, since he seemed to think it was so critical to him winning that he risked it all to do it. And without the 7 TDF titles, his story of beating cancer and coming back to health and winning 7 TDF titles is no longer a sexy story. And without the story the foundation doesn't get its money and its publicity.

I am sure quite a few folks have benefitted in a good sense from the livestrong foundation.

While you are undoubtely hurt in your nationalistic pride because the bugger is an American, I would be terribly pissed of if he were Dutch, he was still the best at what he did albeit is major dope-pusher for sportsmen and not getting caught by the controlling measures put in place. That makes all involved hypocritical and not just the US posterboy. He was cyclings' international posterboy, his downfall shows the weakness of the sport in all its facets.

That there was doping involved has been suspected all along, single folks speaking out were not believed for whatever reasons, probably mostly financial.

What surprises me is that there is very little physical evidence so far. Most of it is based upon witness reports.

Perhaps it is a bit like the UK Saville scandal, a lot of people knew but where either involved or for whatever reason decided not to become involved but shut up.

At the end of the day imho most people and organisations involved in cycling did know, did not do anything, did not care untill now. But perhaps that is because their livelyhood is threatened and they all start pointing the fingers at one of their most succesfull and easiest target. It is not like the French wanted NOT to catch that American in their holy Tour on substance abuse. I just have too many doubts to accept that Armstrong is the big evil baddy all on his own.

saint mark wrote:

While you are undoubtely hurt in your nationalistic pride because the bugger is an American,

Doesn't bother me one bit that he was an American. I feel no "nationalistic pride" towards Armstrong. Wrong is wrong, no matter the nationality.

Quote :

he was still the best at what he did albeit is major dope-pusher

You can't be "the best" and also have done steroids. If you had to resort to steroids then you clearly weren't the best.

I think the moral here is that the entire sport was corrupt. Everyone looks bad.

I can't rag on Lance because he was propped up and cheered on by the whole corrupt machine. As Grav suggests he does look stupid as an honorable spokesman for the profound ideals espoused by the LiveStrong foundation, and people have plenty of reason to feel let down by him, but I would humbly suggest, that once the smoke has cleared and the anger subsides, it's not just Lance that has been indicted here, it's the whole lousy sport.

Baseball was hit just as hard. The whole sport took a hit, not just the steroid- pumped cheaters, but also their numerous enablers in management, media, sponsors, rabid fans, you name it.

Baseball seems to have cleaned up its act, but still guys are getting caught, especially at the minor league level where players are trying to earn that first big contract. Again, with so much money on the line, there will be cheating. All that can be done really, is continue with the testing and keep handing out the suspensions and try to keep the scandal to the minimum.

I do think though to compete at the highest level of any gazillion-dollar sport, there is an inevitable degree of corruption of the athlete, even the purest of souls, just to even get to these levels. The cult of athletic hero worship can be a drug in itself. The girls, the adulation, the parties, the money, the fame.

These guys really don't come back to earth until the ride is over...when the trophy wives have dumped them and sponsors and girls don't know their name any more. The "ride" gets reduced to free-invites to golf tournaments and card shows, where middle-aged sports fans tell them how great they once were. No longer a groupie to be seen, other than the slob with 6 caps and 3 jerseys that need signing.