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 Defining Masculinity

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Largo's Shark
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PostSubject: Defining Masculinity   Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:38 am

Ambler's mentioned that 'most men are proudly effeminate these days', and the 'women he admires generally have more balls' than said men, and in Top Gear thread claimed 'today's prevailing wisdom is that effeminacy is a good thing.'

This isn't a tribunal, I just think it'd be important to define terms.
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Erica Ambler
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PostSubject: Re: Defining Masculinity   Fri Apr 03, 2015 7:48 am

Duplicate thread. You started that one as well.

http://bondandbeyond.forumotion.com/t2607-what-makes-a-man
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PostSubject: Re: Defining Masculinity   Fri Apr 03, 2015 9:19 am

Fuck, I must be losing it.
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PostSubject: Re: Defining Masculinity   Fri Apr 03, 2015 5:30 pm

Watching Top Gear apparently.
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Salomé
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PostSubject: Re: Defining Masculinity   Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:40 pm

I personally believe that the supposed "masculinity crisis" has been quite overstated. In spite of all the columnists/commentators who are throwing their toys out of the pram, the vast majority of positions of power are still held by men, primarily middle-aged white men. Speaking specifically about Britain, just over 20% of MPs are women. So reality is a long way removed from the idea that the male experience is not the defining one in our culture.
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PostSubject: Re: Defining Masculinity   Fri Apr 03, 2015 8:25 pm

Salomé wrote:
the male experience is ... the defining one in our culture.

Well, I should think so. After all, deep down most people know that almost everything of historical import is due to the actions of men. Men are responsible for practically everything significant that has and does take place, both good and bad.

In any rational world, that would be seen as a stunning achievement, rather than as discrimination against women. However, contemporary Western society places emotion above reason: the causes of that shift might make for an absorbing discussion and one which - unlike this  - we've not had before.

BTW, reading Opper's post, I was reminded of a children's classic:

What are little boys made of?
Frogs and snails
And puppy-dogs' tails
That's what little boys are made of
What are little girls made of?
Sugar and spice
And everything nice
That's what little girls are made of


It's somewhat amusing that a Georgian nursery rhyme should form the foundation of so-called 'feminist theory'.
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PostSubject: Re: Defining Masculinity   Fri Apr 03, 2015 9:01 pm

Not sure there is anything particularly feminist about a post that points out the limited number of women in positions of power. In a society where masculinity is supposedly threatened, that surely would not be the case.

It might just be a case of this generation of men being a more whiny bunch than their forefathers.
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PostSubject: Re: Defining Masculinity   Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:13 pm

Salomé wrote:
Not sure there is anything particularly feminist about a post that points out the limited number of women in positions of power.

It's a case of what you left out rather than said. In the UK, far more women go to university than men and, in the age group 20-35, women earn more than men. (Men only start to earn more when women leave the workplace to raise families.) You've focussed on the highest echelons of power, which are no more accessible to most men than women. They're also statistically insignificant. Nice sleight of hand, though.

Salomé wrote:
It might just be a case of this generation of men being a more whiny bunch than their forefathers.

I suppose that depends on what you define as whining. Suicide is now the single biggest cause of death in men aged 20-49 in England and Wales, with males accounting for 78 per cent of all suicides in the UK. To put that into context, female suicide rates have halved since 1981.
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PostSubject: Re: Defining Masculinity   Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:41 am

You will have to explain to me how the fact that the highest positions of power in both the political and business realm are still largely occupied by men is not relevant to a discussion about the supposed crisis that masculinity finds itself in. If the people who call the shots are still primarily men, then how can their gender find itself in any real danger of losing its power or status? And if that is indeed the case, would it not largely be a self-inflicted wound then?
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PostSubject: Re: Defining Masculinity   Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:43 am

Erica Ambler wrote:

I suppose that depends on what you define as whining. Suicide is now the single biggest cause of death in men aged 20-49 in England and Wales, with males accounting for 78 per cent of all suicides in the UK. To put that into context, female suicide rates have halved since 1981.

My point was more that perhaps men of the past thrived because they spent less time complaining about their lot and more time trying to improve it?

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PostSubject: Re: Defining Masculinity   Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:48 am

At least on a cosmetic level growing a big bushy beard or having excess "designer stubble" seems to be the current fashion for young men to show their masculinity. That and covering one's body in large and colourful tattoos.
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PostSubject: Re: Defining Masculinity   Sat Apr 04, 2015 3:55 am

Salomé wrote:

My point was more that perhaps men of the past thrived because they spent less time complaining about their lot and more time trying to improve it?


I think there might be something to this.

I don't want to speak for Ambler, but I don't think it's a questioning male status in the world, but more the emasculation of society. Correct me if I'm way off.
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PostSubject: Re: Defining Masculinity   Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:49 am

You can blame the feminists, you can blame poems but I'm not sure the act of defining masculinity is masculine…
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PostSubject: Re: Defining Masculinity   Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:13 am

There is no universal definition of 'masculinity.' One woman's masculine can be another woman's neanderthal.

An alpha-male can tell me his definition and I can tell him to go fuck himself simply because I find some of his attributes to be gross.
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PostSubject: Re: Defining Masculinity   Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:25 pm

Here's a solid definition of masculinity:

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PostSubject: Re: Defining Masculinity   Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:08 am

Staugust wrote:
At least on a cosmetic level growing a big bushy beard or having excess "designer stubble" seems to be the current fashion for young men to show their masculinity. That and covering one's body in large and colourful tattoos.

A lot of women don't like designer stubble on a man's face and chin, especially if they have sensitive inner thighs.
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PostSubject: Re: Defining Masculinity   Tue Apr 07, 2015 5:44 am

bitchcraft wrote:
Staugust wrote:
At least on a cosmetic level growing a big bushy beard or having excess "designer stubble" seems to be the current fashion for young men to show their masculinity. That and covering one's body in large and colourful tattoos.

A lot of women don't like designer stubble on a man's face and chin, especially if they have sensitive inner thighs.

You are my hero, Dog Bond. ROTFLMAO
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PostSubject: Re: Defining Masculinity   Tue Apr 07, 2015 6:39 am

bitchcraft wrote:
Staugust wrote:
At least on a cosmetic level growing a big bushy beard or having excess "designer stubble" seems to be the current fashion for young men to show their masculinity. That and covering one's body in large and colourful tattoos.

A lot of women don't like designer stubble on a man's face and chin, especially if they have sensitive inner thighs.

Well I'm glad to hear it as I shave every day. smile
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Erica Ambler
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PostSubject: Re: Defining Masculinity   Tue Apr 07, 2015 7:40 am

Staugust wrote:
Well I'm glad to hear it as I shave every day. smile

So does Dog.
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PostSubject: Re: Defining Masculinity   Tue Apr 07, 2015 7:45 am

Erica Ambler wrote:
Staugust wrote:
Well I'm glad to hear it as I shave every day. smile

So does Dog.

A match made in heaven! thumbsup
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PostSubject: Re: Defining Masculinity   Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:48 am

Stubble is entirely subjective where sexiness is concerned. Some guys just rock it, some don't. I can appreciate a scruffy face even when I have no intention to ever let it anywhere near me. Some girls don't like it as a rule, some are more openminded on certain days. A friend of mine has a real beard fetish, but she's the only one I know who will exclusively go for that. Stubble or beards don't define masculinity to me, I tend to notice behaviour and character over superficial details.

Now, I hope I don't destroy too many illusions when I confess here that most guys who consider themselves alpha males more often than not come over as ludicrous, pathetic even. To me a guy is sexy when he doesn't act, when he's just authentic, doesn't force his overblown ego on others (that's a real turn-off). Impressed with self comes to mind there; guys can score big points when they don't take themselves or their convictions too seriously. We're all human, there's no need to pretend one has superior knowledge or experience or whatever. A definite turn-on is when a guy can admit not knowing something, or having made a mistake. When a guy is not ashamed to admit his faults along with his strong sides, that's what takes balls, that's a man in my eyes.
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PostSubject: Re: Defining Masculinity   Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:10 am

SarahN wrote:
To me a guy is sexy when he doesn't act, when he's just authentic

If he’s a good actor how can you tell?

SarahN wrote:
guys can score big points when they don't take themselves or their convictions too seriously.

Yeah, that Jesus, who the hell does he think he is? He should just lighten up…

SarahN wrote:
We're all human, there's no need to pretend one has superior knowledge or experience or whatever.

Pretending is pointless, but very human. However, differing levels of ability and experience are real, and market values reflect that.  Of course that's how it should be - a rational society celebrates and venerates the extraordinary not the ordinary.

SarahN wrote:
A definite turn-on is when a guy can admit not knowing something, or having made a mistake. When a guy is not ashamed to admit his faults along with his strong sides, that's what takes balls, that's a man in my eyes.

No, that's a man trying to get into your pants. wink
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PostSubject: Re: Defining Masculinity   Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:40 am

So are you saying that men are all liars at heart, Ambler? Or only when interacting with women? tongue
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PostSubject: Re: Defining Masculinity   Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:11 am

Salomé wrote:
So are you saying that men are all liars at heart, Ambler? Or only when interacting with women? tongue

Not at heart, but in fact. And yes, especially with women. It's the damn biological imperative - you know, like when you used to stick socks in your training bra, Oppers.
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PostSubject: Re: Defining Masculinity   Wed Apr 08, 2015 6:41 pm

Erica Ambler wrote:
Salomé wrote:
So are you saying that men are all liars at heart, Ambler? Or only when interacting with women? tongue

Not at heart, but in fact. And yes,  especially with women. It's the damn biological imperative - you know, like when you used to stick socks in your training bra, Oppers.  

Never had any need to do that, they were already there before I was even ready for their arrival!
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