Previous Debate: Naomie Harris as Moneypenny - Approve or not?

I don't know if it's relevent, but it certainly is important for the messages it sends.

CJB wrote:

Walecs wrote:

They made Felix Leiter black.

I blame that on the folks who gave us NSNA.

Moneypenny was created white by Fleming, and was portrayed by Lois Maxwell (white) for 14 films and then played by two other white women, with similar attractive but not vavoom looks either. There is a 40 year, 20 film precedent here, therefore MP should remain white and only somewhat attractive ie she should not rival the actual Bond-girls.

Leiter, who cares. They radically changed up his look with GF. He's been a blank slate ever since. The first black Felix Leiter in NSNA was not a schock at all, although I do take notice, that MP was indeed cast in the Lois Maxwell mode for NSNA, so make that 4 actresses and 21 films over 40 years.

Hmmmm. I see a pattern here. I see a real precedent for this character, just like that James Bond guy has always been cast as tall dark and handsome.ooops :pale: OK, what the heck, go ahead and cast Lady Ga Ga as MP. And say hello to teenage Q. It doesn't matter anymore.

It's Nu-Bond! Out with the old Bond! :cheers:

Reported by Cb.ner TheSilhouette after reading the "Bond on Set" book.

Spoiler:

http://debrief.commanderbond.net/topic/61845-eve-potential-spoilers/page__st__60#entry1218201

I am now ambivalent as to whether or not Eve is MP. This is nu-Bond. The slate has been wiped clean. As discussed in another thread it seems that with SF, we are getting a coming together of the familiar-team story. These familiar characters now have nu-Bond origins, unlike old Bond where we simply found them in place.

Eve/MP I think is fait accompli, or so it seems. But if she's not actually identified as MP, she might just be Eve re-assigned to office, leaving the door open for someone else, but I'm not betting on that scenario.

Perhaps Eve could be inspired by Loelia Ponsonby of the novels, leaving room for there to be a new Miss Moneypenny as well.

Now that is something I'd prefer.

I never took you for a racist, Fields. :x

I'm not racist. I just don't see why she has to be Moneypenny - she's a white character!

Do I need to become black because I live in this day and age? No. And it's a ridiculous suggestion - so why make a character that, when she has always been white? Bond can bang her. She can be a Bond girl, just no MP. Another office secretary, perhaps?

Why is Moneypenny's skin color a big deal? This is typically a role that's three minutes long for most of the films and all that's required is that she's cute and that she flirts with Bond. Was it outrageous when they cast a blonde as Moneypenny in the Dalton films when she was first established as a brunette?

Python wrote:

Was it outrageous when they cast a blonde as Moneypenny in the Dalton films when she was first established as a brunette?

Clearly you weren't around for the Bliss Not 'Penny campaign. We didn't have the internet back then so we had a rowdy town hall meeting and then snorted some coke.

The 80's were a hell of a time.

Python wrote:

Why is Moneypenny's skin color a big deal? This is typically a role that's three minutes long for most of the films and all that's required is that she's cute and that she flirts with Bond. Was it outrageous when they cast a blonde as Moneypenny in the Dalton films when she was first established as a brunette?

Assuming the report on Harris as Moneypenny is true, Moneypenny's skin color is obviously a big deal for Babs. And for all the wrong reasons (although I can't think of a right one). And if the trailers are any indication, the role won't be three minutes of flirting. It will involve sex and operations in the field. In other words, Moneypenny has been redefined beyond all recognition.

I hope this Baz bloke is merely spouting off carelessly.

Perilagu Khan wrote:

Python wrote:

Why is Moneypenny's skin color a big deal? This is typically a role that's three minutes long for most of the films and all that's required is that she's cute and that she flirts with Bond. Was it outrageous when they cast a blonde as Moneypenny in the Dalton films when she was first established as a brunette?

Assuming the report on Harris as Moneypenny is true, Moneypenny's skin color is obviously a big deal for Babs. And for all the wrong reasons (although I can't think of a right one). And if the trailers are any indication, the role won't be three minutes of flirting. It will involve sex and operations in the field. In other words, Moneypenny has been redefined beyond all recognition.

I hope this Baz bloke is merely spouting off carelessly.

Skin color is no "big deal" when it is the white actor/role that is being recast/re-imagined, because it is quietly assumed that white actors and white roles have "dominated" the cultural and media landscape for so long that it is now time to give someone else a shot, even if audiences aren't asking for such a recast to be made. When the actor/role being recast is a "minority", the shit will hit the fan (the most recent example I can think of, off-hand, was the casting of a white/European actor in the lead role in THE LAST AIRBENDER, and not an Asian child, and God forbid if anyone white plays a black character like Fred Armisen did playing Barack Obama on Saturday NIght Live, even though Obama is half-white).

Skin color is often associated with language, culture, fashion, politics...it just is. There's a reason why I did not go to the theater to see THOR (because Idris Elba should not be playing a Norwegian God. Period.)

But I digress. I'd probably have less of a problem with Naomi Harris' casting as Moneypenny ***IF**** Felix Leiter hadn't already been turned from a tall, blond, Texan-male into a short, balding, black man, and if James Bond hadn't been turned from a tall, dark headed, cruelly-good-looking white man into......Daniel Craig. Babs wants to "go back to Fleming", as she has made it clear from 2005 onward, only when it is convenient for her. She's perfectly happy ditching the most faithful aspects of the novels when it doesn't suit her agenda. It's not enough that M has to have an expanded role yet again, and play Bond's de-facto mother, but now Moneypenny has to be introduced to us as a gun-toting, hand-to-hand-combat femme fatale. Maybe Babs is trying to make up for how she felt they misused Halle Berry, so she's giving Naomi Harris the opportunity to play a role without a sexy name like JInx Johnson, or stereotypical dialogue like "Yo Momma!".

Or maybe Barbara Broccoli is so thoroughly ashamed of being a producer on this series that she has finally decided that to atone for the sins of her father (i.e. being white, heterosexual, and a man) she's going to use the series as a vehicle for her strident feminist views. At this point I wouldn't be surprised to see either Bond recast with a black man or a woman, or for Babs to just give up on 007 altogether and spin the series off with a new, female or black 00-agent (which I've been recommending for years, but to no avail).

God it feels good to complain about something on-topic!

P.S. All the haters who lambasted me for insisting Harris was Moneypenny and that I had no proof (even though it was totally obvious what was going on with the character) can start flooding my inbox with apologies. I'll accept that in lieu of a public apology and allow you to save face.

I agree that Babs will, in all likelihood, cast a black guy as Bond eventually. Jeffery Wright, and possibly Namoie Harris, are paving the way.

And I will apologize to you, Gravy, if and when Harris is actually confirmed as Moneypenny. At this point, all we have are the words of some dude named Baz.

My only concern about Naomi Harris playing Moneypenny is that it's a waste of talent in such a small recurring role.

Perhaps, like Dench's M, MP will constantly follow Bond into the field as a liason, leaving Feinnes' Mallory to mind the shop?

Black Felix, black Moneypenny.

Next one will be Q, then M. And finally Bond.

And they'll make Live and Let Die, but this time, skin-colour inverted. It will be black people vs. a white Big Man.

Walecs wrote:

Black Felix, black Moneypenny.

Next one will be Q, then M. And finally Bond.

And they'll make Live and Let Die, but this time, skin-colour inverted. It will be black people vs. a white Big Man.

A metaphor for the United States.

Perilagu Khan wrote:

And I will apologize to you, Gravy, if and when Harris is actually confirmed as Moneypenny. At this point, all we have are the words of some dude named Baz.

Baz has been right on every other occasion. Methinks he's got an insider at EON.

Largo's Shark wrote:

Perilagu Khan wrote:

And I will apologize to you, Gravy, if and when Harris is actually confirmed as Moneypenny. At this point, all we have are the words of some dude named Baz.

Baz has been right on every other occasion. Methinks he's got an insider at EON.

Baz = Babz Broccoli

Gravity's Silhouette wrote:

There's a reason why I did not go to the theater to see THOR (because Idris Elba should not be playing a Norwegian God. Period.)

That's a shame, it's actually a pretty fun flick.

Gravity's Silhouette wrote:

Largo's Shark wrote:

Perilagu Khan wrote:

And I will apologize to you, Gravy, if and when Harris is actually confirmed as Moneypenny. At this point, all we have are the words of some dude named Baz.

Baz has been right on every other occasion. Methinks he's got an insider at EON.

Baz = Babz Broccoli

Baz = Shabazza Ras-I Ali Farrakhan Naomie Harris

I'm all for it.

Moneypenny was enjoyable until around Diamonds Are Forever and the only thing that really made it interesting during the 60's was the chemistry between her and Connery. After that she was just there. Same old lines. Yawn. She's only been there for traditions sake, no other reason. 80's Maxwell, Bliss, and Samantha Bond were just dreadful.

I'm glad they are shaking it up. We need some characters with some life in them. I don't want to see a character forced to make a 5 minute appearance just because of tradition. The Q, M, and Moneypenny scenes during the Brosnan era were horrendous, it was like watching a spoof. I'm glad they are mixing things up for Craig. I'm all for experimenting and shaking things up after 50 years.


Besides, it will be nice to give the character a little history. Since 1962 she's just been a secretary. And we've never learned anything about her since. It's 2012 now. The world has changed. The only returning character who has evolved since the series debuted is Bond himself. These characters are old and need updating. If you ask me, the series could have used some fresh faces and new ideas a long time ago.

I really look forward to a fresh take on the Bond series.

I simply don't want MP to be an ex Bond girl, I would like a relationship more akin to the Lois Maxwell/Connery one part affection/part sarcastic banter - more the unrequited office attraction, each caring for the other but aware their lives and careers won't allow it to go further.

I am more than happy to have Eve as the Skyfall Bond girl however....just as I would have been happy to see her cast as MP in a support role....I simply don't like the idea of a mix, and I am fed up to the back teeth with the apparent need for every aspect to have exposition and emo-justifications laid for the future.

^Exactly.

Moore wrote:

I'm all for it.

Moneypenny was enjoyable until around Diamonds Are Forever and the only thing that really made it interesting during the 60's was the chemistry between her and Connery. After that she was just there. Same old lines. Yawn. She's only been there for traditions sake, no other reason. 80's Maxwell, Bliss, and Samantha Bond were just dreadful.

I'm glad they are shaking it up. We need some characters with some life in them. I don't want to see a character forced to make a 5 minute appearance just because of tradition. The Q, M, and Moneypenny scenes during the Brosnan era were horrendous, it was like watching a spoof. I'm glad they are mixing things up for Craig. I'm all for experimenting and shaking things up after 50 years.


Besides, it will be nice to give the character a little history. Since 1962 she's just been a secretary. And we've never learned anything about her since. It's 2012 now. The world has changed. The only returning character who has evolved since the series debuted is Bond himself. These characters are old and need updating. If you ask me, the series could have used some fresh faces and new ideas a long time ago.

I really look forward to a fresh take on the Bond series.

O, the irony of your avatar.

Touché.

However, I feel Fleming would have preferred innovation and experimenting with new ideas as opposed to re-treading the same old material. for 5 decades I just feel a lot of the stagnation that set in during the 80's and the Brosnan era were a result of set characters like Q and Moneypenny.

I'm sure they could have brought back an old white guy and white lady for the roles, no doubt. But at this point, I'm willing to see any kind of shake up to bring back a sense of watching a serious Bond film and not what seems like a spoof.

I love Q, but he was spoofing himself by the late 80's/early 90's. Same with Moneypenny. Even M. Watch a film like TND: World War III is about to start, but when you see the scenes with M you don't really feel their is a risk. It all seems so Austin Powers-esque. Sure, we all know Bond is going to win in the end, but even in the sillier films those scenes made it seem like there was really something at risk.

I'd much rather watch Eve become Moneypenny and have some character development than watch another Samantha Bond Moneypenny scene with no substance at all. Watching that you get the sense "Oh, we need to fill 5 minutes of screen time, let's throw Moneypenny on there and make up some bland, boring dialogue."


Different strokes for different folks. I definitely understand everybody elses argument though, I respect that. I recognize I don't exactly hold a popular view.