Sony leaks reveal wants for Idris for next Bond

Was trawling through MI6 Community (as I mentally prepare myself to get shitfaced this New Years Eve) and I read through their Elba thread and someone made a rather interesting point regarding a potential black Bond. Namely that a black guy in Russia and Eastern Europe - where our protagonist finds himself frequently - would stick out like a sore thumb. It's incredibly unlikely that a Western intelligence agency (unless they have some sort of PC quota to meet when doling out missions) would send a non-white operative to that monoracial part of the world as they simply would not be able to blend in.

I think that is a bit silly. Not saying I side one way or the other, but Bond has made numerous trips to various locations where a white man simply sticks out like a sore thumb and no one seems to ever notice him.

And I doubt we'll ever see Bond in Russia again unless in a friendly capacity. Can't risk losing any box office nowadays, even if tensions are a bit high.

CJB wrote:

Was trawling through MI6 Community (as I mentally prepare myself to get shitfaced this New Years Eve) and I read through their Elba thread and someone made a rather interesting point regarding a potential black Bond. Namely that a black guy in Russia and Eastern Europe - where our protagonist finds himself frequently - would stick out like a sore thumb. It's incredibly unlikely that a Western intelligence agency (unless they have some sort of PC quota to meet when doling out missions) would send a non-white operative to that monoracial part of the world as they simply would not be able to blend in.

It reminds me of an old Russian joke a friend told me:

At the height of the Cold War, the CIA spend tens of millions of dollars on a programme to train a deep-cover agent for a mission well in the Soviet Union. The teach him the language, the history, the culture; anything and everything that will help him convince the Russians that he is - and always has been - one of them.

Ten minutes after moving into his new home in the middle of Russia, his neighbour comes up to him and says "Welcome, American CIA agent!"

Shocked, the agent asks "How did you know!?" while walking through every stage of the complex operation to get him into the country, wondering what went wrong.

The neighbour replies "It's been a while since we last saw a black man here."

Moore wrote:

I think that is a bit silly. Not saying I side one way or the other, but Bond has made numerous trips to various locations where a white man simply sticks out like a sore thumb and no one seems to ever notice him.

Unfortunately we are still in a world where racism is still rife in many parts, and a white man would never stick out like a sore thumb as much as a black person would.

In the novels Fleming seems to make a conscious effort in describing how easy Bond can blend in to his foreign surroundings, whether he is sporting a shaved head in LALD and attempting a Yankee accent, or turning Japanese in YOLT, under the guidance of Tiger.

bitchcraft wrote:

Prisoner Monkeys wrote:

So far, I think it's fair to say that GS hasn't made any convincing arguments against Elba playing Bond.

Nope, that's not fair to say at all.

Thanks, Bitch.

How about this line of debate: the Bond films will step into a minefield of social and racial issues by hiring a black actor that they could never possibly be prepared to deal with and it will explode in their faces. The first issue brought up will be: do you have a black writer on the staff? Because one of the more consistent complaints from actors and actress "of color" in Hellywood is that their roles are always written by Jewish or White writers, and that the characters don't sound, act, or behave like an authentically black character would. I guess that sort of point of view directly undercuts some arguments on this board that skin color is nothing that can't easily be overcome; that as long as Elba can act, that's all that should matter. But acts like what exactly? Who determines what Elba acts like? And how do they get him to act the way they want him to?

The American black male, aged 17-25, will not go see this film. They'll find Elba an object of curiosity because so few of them have seen or heard a black man with an English accent in their own lives, and inevitably a campaign will be started to suggest Elba isn't truly an authentically black actor. The few black women that will go see the films (because they haven't been so far) will yell at the screen and vocalize their disappointment that Elba bedded down a white woman.

I guess the point I'm making is that the harshest critics of Elba would be other blacks;whites will just end up taking a pass on the film.

I'd also suggesting thinking about the fact that a black B*** would necessitate another reboot and do we really want to start all over so that Black B***'s backstory can be established? Ideally the next actor takes over from Craig and keep the timeline somewhat in tact. Black B*** would destroy all that.

Why do you keep using *'s?

Daniel Craig endured a similar campaign with no ill effect.

You're trying to prove that hiring Elba is a bad idea because it will ruin the franchise in a storm of societal responsibility, but so far all I think you have proven is that you're a bigot. Reading your posts, I feel that all you have done is actually prove the argument that you're opposed to.

I simply believe it is possible to find an actor that is both physically and psychologically in tune with the classically described character of Bond, imo that isn't Craig, it isn't Elba, it isn't Robert DeNiro or Leonard DiCaprio either..... that's not to say it doesn't or at least couldn't work with these or others, indeed its an actors job to be what they are not, but imo any search should be about finding the best match across all aspects rather than making a 'statement' or indulging a whim or patronising pretention.

Prisoner Monkeys wrote:

Daniel Craig endured a similar campaign with no ill effect.

You're trying to prove that hiring Elba is a bad idea because it will ruin the franchise in a storm of societal responsibility, but so far all I think you have proven is that you're a bigot. Reading your posts, I feel that all you have done is actually prove the argument that you're opposed to.

The truth is, I don't have to defend any of my reasons for not wanting Elba. I do it as a courtesy to keep discussion going and to have a fun debate. Instead, as a fan of 31+ years of the series, my money does the talking. I don't have to tell EON why I don't want Elba (or any other actor). All they need to know is if I approve or disapprove of an actor and then they can decide whether it's in their best interests to pursue an actor that I , and the public, have so soundly rejected.

Just because it has not turned out badly in the case of Daniel Craig doesn't mean EON can catch lightning in a bottle twice. Daniel Craig might have been a maverick choice, but he still is more conventional of a rogue, maverick choice than a black actor would be.

And since you, from what I have observed, have never actually bothered to refute any of the dozen cogent arguments I've made against hiring Elba, I can only assume you either think the arguments so bigoted and racist as to be unworthy of a response, or that they are so shallow and weak that it is virtually impossible to intelligently debate them...either way, I think you are incredibly naive in your world assessment. If I'm wrong correct me, but I'm thinking you're mid-20's, white, male, and liberal/progressive, and somewhere within all that your worldview leads you to believe that because a liberal white male is okay with a black B***, that the rest of the world is going to openly embrace everything that you find acceptable, which discounts the reality that hundreds of millions of people around the planet, including blacks, simply will not want to see a black B*** film. Those peoples opinions won't matter to you because they're "racists" and I guess you'll blame them for when the movie fails. But meantime, who is going to financially support the film while progressive liberals such as Babs Broccoli and Amy Paschal pat themselves on the back for their enlightened world view and their willingness to cast a man of color for the role?

Is there any sort of line to be drawn? I think you've refused to answer that question before. What about plus-sized women? Can we now start casting fat women as Bond Girls? I mean, if they can act the part, why shouldn't plus sized, 200-pound models start getting work as Bond Girls? Where does this end? What about disabled/handicapped Bond Girls? What about Peter Dinklage or other very talented midgets as Bond? If they can act, should they not be considered? I'd really like an answer to those questions, because I believe that you are bigoted as well, you have your own red lines, and you don't want to discuss them because they're "straw arguments" (but they're really not), but you'd probably be every bit as upset if Dinklage and Melissa McCarthy were cast in the next Bond film as 007 and Fatty O'Toole as I am about hearing about Elba.

Bond is a fantasy character based loosely upon real life individuals and experiences. He was not meant to be an agent of social change. He's not an activist. He doesn't do messaging work  Yet that is ultimately what we would have with a black B****. I refuse to apologize that my fantasy has become so politically incorrect that it requires hiring a black actor to atone for my "racist", bigoted viewpoints and the viewpoints of millions of other people just like me, including black people, who don't want this forced upon us.

Gravity's Silhouette wrote:

The American black male, aged 17-25, will not go see this film. They'll find Elba an object of curiosity because so few of them have seen or heard a black man with an English accent in their own lives, and inevitably a campaign will be started to suggest Elba isn't truly an authentically black actor. The few black women that will go see the films (because they haven't been so far) will yell at the screen and vocalize their disappointment that Elba bedded down a white woman.

Good grief. What evidence do you have that suggests any of this ridiculousness will happen?

Gravity's Silhouette wrote:

But meantime, who is going to financially support the film while progressive liberals such as Babs Broccoli and Amy Paschal pat themselves on the back for their enlightened world view and their willingness to cast a man of color for the role?

Maybe Kanye West? After maybe one too many sniffs of his wife's half-acre ass, he's now postulating that casting a black Bond would be 'visionary.' Exactly how this is so might have to be elucidated by some of his fellow visionaries on this board, as I seem to be myopic when it comes to Elba's selection.

Gravity's Silhouette wrote:

I think you are incredibly naive... because I believe that you are bigoted as well,

Taking a time out to quote myself.

That might have come across as harsh and antagonistic and if so, I apologize. There was no harshness intended and not an ounce of antagonism in my mind. Maybe a better word than "naive" would be "optimistic".

"Bigoted" could also be replaced with "preferences", but I digress.

I have no problem with people wanting a black B***, I just don't agree with the reasons for wanting it or the reasons for making a change. A person could make an argument that making Bond a black character because it would be affirmative or "visionary" is just as bigoted and prejudicial as not wanting Idris Elba because he's black; just because the prejudice is in the positive instead of the negative doesn't make the decision any more just or right. But yeah, whatever. I will not accept a black B***. Period. I'll accept a black 003. A female 002. But James Bond is off limits.

You discuss this on New Year's Eve? you guys serious???

Oh for sure.

Will Smith is James West and we all know where this went.

Denzel Washington is The Equalizer, ditto.

I think DC did a black Superman, once. I can't remember when and where.

A black Bond is a box officer downer. I wouldn't mind, thought, if somehow they make Elba white using VFX, he is an excellent actor and that would make crazy headlines!

Stamper wrote:

I think DC did a black Superman, once. I can't remember when and where.

You mean 'Steel' with Shaquille O'Neal?

It bombed at the box office...made less than $2m in 1997.

Based on the black Superman who came in during the 'Reign of Supermen' after Doomsday beat Superman to 'death'.

Stamper wrote:

Will Smith is James West and we all  know where this went.

WILD WILD WEST did not suck because Will Smith starred in it. WILD WILD WEST sucked because it was one of the worst films ever made. And if you believe Kevin Smith, that was solely down to the influence of producer Jon Peters.

Quote :

I wouldn't mind, thought, if somehow they make Elba white using VFX, he is an excellent actor and that would make crazy headlines!

Yes, I can see them now. FILM PRODUCERS LYNCHED springs to mind. I imagine that it would be swiftly followed by DEFENDANTS FOUND NOT GUILTY.

Seriously, the above quote may be the most racist thing anyone has ever said. Unfortunately, it's only the second most appalling thing you have ever said.

Prisoner Monkeys wrote:

Stamper wrote:

Will Smith is James West and we all  know where this went.

WILD WILD WEST did not suck because Will Smith starred in it. WILD WILD WEST sucked because it was one of the worst films ever made. And if you believe Kevin Smith, that was solely down to the influence of producer Jon Peters.

Quote :

I wouldn't mind, thought, if somehow they make Elba white using VFX, he is an excellent actor and that would make crazy headlines!

Yes, I can see them now. FILM PRODUCERS LYNCHED springs to mind. I imagine that it would be swiftly followed by DEFENDANTS FOUND NOT GUILTY.

Seriously, the above quote may be the most racist thing anyone has ever said. Unfortunately, it's only the second most appalling thing you have ever said.

Seriously, read more.

A lot more.

Nowhere close.

The reality is, rightly or wrongly, either the audience for black-led films is smaller than those with white leads, or Hollywood erroneously believes it to be so. This isn't an absurdity, just look at the plethora of films with black leads that don't even get theatrical releases outside of the United States, or the smaller gross office takes of Denzel or Will Smith's 'blockbusters' next to those 

As it stands, after Skyfall, Bond films are more or less at the top end of what any film is going to make in BO. takings. Commercially, the decision seems unlikely.

In terms of character, as much as there are black public school boys in this day and age, Bond is still very much a part of the British upper-middle class, as was his creator. This affects his attitudes, his background, his perspective as a character. James Bond as a character is inherently tied to notions of British imperialism. An Indian Bond, frankly, is more plausible by a mile than one of African or West-Indies descent due to the connection with the colonial past and the British establishment, and that country's specific connection with that cultural past. Characters, like real men, should not be an island. And it is difficult to picture even a public school educated black-British man having the same world view inherent to the character of James Bond in this day and age, because his perspective of the world would be dramatically different due to his first hand experiences and the attitudes of the two generations of his family before him.  

I'm not opposed to a black Bond by any means. But I feel like for it to truly make sense there's still a generation or so to go.

Vesper wrote:

The reality is, rightly or wrongly, either the audience for black-led films is smaller than those with white leads, or Hollywood erroneously believes it to be so. This isn't an absurdity, just look at the plethora of films with black leads that don't even get theatrical releases outside of the United States, or the smaller gross office takes of Denzel or Will Smith's 'blockbusters' next to those 

Oh, I'm not denying that. I'm just taking issue with stamper's comment that despite Elba's acting talent, the only way that he would have any credibility would be to let the producers artificially turn him into a white person. Given some of his other comments elsewhere on the forum, I am not sure that I can give him the benefit of the doubt here.

Vesper wrote:

The reality is, rightly or wrongly, either the audience for black-led films is smaller than those with white leads, or Hollywood erroneously believes it to be so. This isn't an absurdity, just look at the plethora of films with black leads that don't even get theatrical releases outside of the United States, or the smaller gross office takes of Denzel or Will Smith's 'blockbusters' next to those 

As it stands, after Skyfall, Bond films are more or less at the top end of what any film is going to make in BO. takings. Commercially, the decision seems unlikely.

In terms of character, as much as there are black public school boys in this day and age, Bond is still very much a part of the British upper-middle class, as was his creator. This affects his attitudes, his background, his perspective as a character. James Bond as a character is inherently tied to notions of British imperialism. An Indian Bond, frankly, is more plausible by a mile than one of African or West-Indies descent due to the connection with the colonial past and the British establishment, and that country's specific connection with that cultural past. Characters, like real men, should not be an island. And it is difficult to picture even a public school educated black-British man having the same world view inherent to the character of James Bond in this day and age, because his perspective of the world would be dramatically different due to his first hand experiences and the attitudes of the two generations of his family before him.  

I'm not opposed to a black Bond by any means. But I feel like for it to truly make sense there's still a generation or so to go.

The Most sensible pointI read against Elba yet apart from when people admit he's just not Bond them. Which is fine by me, fans can't be expected to agree on all actors. Arguing the series ows its fans is missing the point, bit like sayin they didn't reallŷ make those films, the fans did, huh?!? The series will go wherever they, EON deem right, no? Why would they risk sinking their own ship? They want to earn money and they can only do that as long as it sails. He**, maybe they give the role to a blond medium-sized actor next time, lol.

Campbell4 wrote:

The Most sensible pointI read against Elba

That was no different to the point I made earlier......

Gravity's Silhouette wrote:

a black B***

GS, why do you keep using asterisks when mentioning the above? I'm guessing it is because you cannot bare the idea so much, that you cannot even bring yourself to type the words on screen...?

 

jet set willy wrote:

Campbell4 wrote:

The Most sensible pointI read against Elba

That was no different to the point I made earlier......

Yes, could have quoted that one instead. It's the best argument brought up against Elba, especially when one isn't opposed to a black Bond per se but not comfortable with it right now, or with Elba, not everybody needs to like the guy. Good call on the generation, sounds like a sensible time. Though 25 or 30 years can be much shorter than some think. My favourite Bond Dalton started now almost 30years ago.

My contention has nothing to do with disliking Elba's acting chops per se - because I don't. Nor does it have anything to do with generation either. I simply don't want Bond "blackwashed" now or ever, by anyone, cuz he ain't black. He's not asian, he's not Mexican, he's not from the Middle East, he's been fictionalised as whitebread from Day 1, end of fucking story.

It would be a total travesty changing his race altogether and I am sickened by those who want to play the race card and use this as an "accomplishment" of sorts, that casting Elba would be an 'absolution' for the Bond franchise.

Like it or not, that is my opinion and it is not negotiable.

Besides...black Bond fans chimed in their 0.02 about Craig being suitable/unsuitable for 007 and if they found him unsuitable then, how could a complete race change be suitable now?

bitchcraft wrote:

My contention has nothing to do with disliking Elba's acting chops per se - because I don't. Nor does it have anything to do with generation either. I simply don't want Bond "blackwashed" now or ever, by anyone, cuz he ain't black. He's not asian, he's not Mexican, he's not from the Middle East, he's been fictionalised as whitebread from Day 1, end of fucking story.

It would be a total travesty changing his race altogether and I am sickened by those who want to play the race card and use this as an "accomplishment" of sorts, that casting Elba would be an 'absolution' for the Bond franchise.

Like it or not, that is my opinion and it is not negotiable.

LOL! Don't worry, I didn't want to buy it anyway wouldn't know what to do with it!

Me I wouldn't see Elba as an accomplishment, the only accomplishments I have use for are my own. Elba would be just a damn fine Bond IMO and f*** blackwashing. Would he be the best, idk, don't think we'll ever see the best actor in the role. only thing I do know is he'd be a big step in the right direction with raw predatory power. Hey, if that's not your thing, fine. I never said it's all for me, isn't either. But that guy's skin I don't give a damn about. Sorry, that's my opinion. Hah, guess what? It's not for sale either.

Talking about ever or never, phew, what do I care what Bond will look like in the future ? I'm a fan not a bl**dy believer and this is no f***ing religion, is it? They do what they want, what think earns them the most money, that's the only religious thing about it, I'd have thought that's understood.