Spectre - members review thread

Strangways&Quarrel wrote:

Besides that I think the problem here was they didn't really commit fully to just making a classic Bond film. Here they had a lot of elements in play such as humor, action, globe trotting, a cool car with gadgets, multiple girls for Bond's bedtime pleasure, SPECTRE and Blofeld but they couldn't resist shoehorning the old "personal issues" thing this time by throwing in that eye-rolling backstory for Blofeld mixed with him being this grand puppet master responsible "for all of Bond's pain" instead of just having him be a intelligent super-villain driven by his ego. Up until the big reveal besides the back and fourth internal politics at MI6 this was very much classic Bond for a large chunk of it with some flaws but nothing that couldn't have been ironed out with some touch-ups to the script primarily to make SPECTRE more ominous and threatening and not have a huge chunk of their plan based in a near-abandoned lair that blows up entirely just by rubbing your hair with an inflated balloon next to a gas can.

Yeah, I dunno which contractors Blofeld used to build the place but corners were definitely cut . Granted, the place does blow up a little too easily but as arguably the first proper 'villain's ground-based lair goes kaboom' bit since Goldeneye I was happy to run with it.

The destruction of Blofeld's base seemed like it was ripped from a James Bond parody. The action prior to the destruction did, too. Bond was running around like Rambo. Mendes must've been inspired by some of the scenes from TOMORROW NEVER DIES.

The whole fucking film seems like a parody of the James Bond franchise.

Save for maybe the stuff on the stealth boat, the majority of the action in TND is much more creative than the action in SP. And it feels more like a Bond film with Bond (and in parts Wai Lin) using improvisation rather than just charging in and seeing what sticks a la the snow chase in SP. And, at least the sequences in TND are self assured - the car chase knew exactly what it wanted to be and was fun. The car chase in SP was almost ashamed to be a Bondian car chase, yet still wanted to be glossy and fun.

Yeah, identity crisis is a really good way of putting it. The writing is the obvious weak point. They wanted to have their cake and eat it too in regards to doing a "classic Bond" movie but they just couldn't resist those "let's make it personal" connections.

Also, for a "classic" formulaic Bond to work you need to have cracking dialogue, similarly effective humor, a great villain, and some really exciting action that stems from the story, which I think, aside from some really good action sequences (pre-titles, train fight) Spectre lacks.

Also, anyone besides me feel like the ending where he doesn't kill Blofeld feels really "un-Bond?" I mean, I get it, they just got the rights back he's not going to get killed off any time soon, but regardless... Maybe I just don't know the character that well, but damn. Pretty sure Fleming's Bond would have killed him at least right? But I guess Craig's Bond at this point leans more towards the "Film Bond" side of things (which is fine, I like both).

Yeah, the entire last act in London (save for maybe C's final scene) could have been deleted, with Blofeld presumed dead in the explosion (a la Blofeld in YOLT and arguably DAF), only to reappear in Bond 25, which Bond is assigned to, or Bond rejoins MI6 to tie lose ends - depending on how you interpret the ending of SP.

FieldsMan wrote:

Yeah, the entire last act in London (save for maybe C's final scene) could have been deleted, with Blofeld presumed dead in the explosion (a la Blofeld in YOLT and arguably DAF), only to reappear in Bond 25, which Bond is assigned to, or Bond rejoins MI6 to tie lose ends - depending on how you interpret the ending of SP.  

Wouldn't mind a Garden of Death angle (Swann dies..Bond goes after him etc)

Also, people say the ending is "left ambiguous" but I thought it was pretty abundantly clear that he was leaving the service for Madelaine (another reason why I'm so bummed the writing for their relationship is so weak - the series is full of half-hearted trysts, but this is meant to be much more, but is treated like Swann is just another fling in terms of development of the relationship). Anyways...

- There's that melodramatic ending on the bridge where Bond stands halfway between M and Swann, both of whom are looking at him. He's looking back and forth. Ten minutes prior she has said that she can't be with him if he continues to lead the life of an assassin. By him choosing M, he's choosing the life of an assasssin. He chooses not to shoot Blofeld, chooses Swann, and throws his gun into the river. Not very ambiguous at all.

- The final scene "I thought you'd left" a lot of people have said, "well, maybe he just means holiday!" I don't buy that. I think the ending is this way in case Craig doesn't return (he will though I think). Bond is leaving the service. I don't see a whole lot of room for interpretation there. The ending on the bridge being the biggest evidence.

Yep agree with all that. I'm hoping he means holiday, but it clearly means he's done and wants to marry Swann (not that it matters. You can only do a Bond film where Bond is working for MI6). Which, as you say, is ridiculous because she felt like any other Bond girl and Craig treated her as such. Replace her with Goodnight, Anya or Domino and it would feel just the same. Hell, even Bond's relationships with Kara or Natalya felt more developed and like he'd settle down with them than with Swann.

I think it'll go one of two ways:

-Cregg returns and they'll make Bond 25 another festival of deep grittiness. Swann returns and gets kidnapped by Blowhard who's managed to escape from prison because British prison guards are only permitted to carry batons and say "Ello, ello wot av we here?" and so Bond spends the film trying to rescue her. She ends up eating lead at the end of the film and finally, at long last, James becomes Bond (until the next gritty It's Personal snoozefest).

- Cregg leaves, Michael Fassbonder or whoever takes over the role and SPECTRE is basically ignored (i.e. no mention of Swann or Bond's adoptive brother being behind all the world's evildoers).

I think if they intend to go down the first route you mentioned if Craig comes back them I hope he doesn't. Enough with the personal gritty stuff and just let Bond be Bond without the emotional baggage already. As long as he is more approximate to his role in Inglorious Basterds I think Fassbinder would do fine in a fun Goldfinger/Thunderball type Bond flick with the right director behind the camera.

CJB wrote:

I think it'll go one of two ways:

-Cregg returns and they'll make Bond 25 another festival of deep grittiness. Swann returns and gets kidnapped by Blowhard who's managed to escape from prison because British prison guards are only permitted to carry batons and say "Ello, ello wot av we here?" and so Bond spends the film trying to rescue her. She ends up eating lead at the end of the film and finally, at long last, James becomes Bond (until the next gritty It's Personal snoozefest).

- Cregg leaves, Michael Fassbonder or whoever takes over the role and SPECTRE is basically ignored (i.e. no mention of Swann or Bond's adoptive brother being behind all the world's evildoers).

I think you're right for both outcomes.

Strangeways&Quarrel wrote:

I think if they intend to go down the first route you mentioned if Craig comes back them I hope he doesn't. Enough with the personal gritty stuff and just let Bond be Bond without the emotional baggage already. As long as he is more approximate to his role in Inglorious Basterds I think Fassbinder would do fine in a fun Goldfinger/Thunderball type Bond flick with the right director behind the camera.

Agreed on all counts. Though he'd be awesome in something like FRWL/FYEO thriller as well. He's just perfect for it - Babs would be certifiably insane if she doesn't offer and push for Fassbender to be Bond.

The relationships with Kara and Natalya felt like they had far more weight and heft and love than his relationship with Swann, for sure. Two big reasons why I value those two movies so highly. Even though Bond isn't leaving for them, by the end of the film it's like "well, if he did that'd be fine."

Xenia93 wrote:

The relationships with Kara and Natalya felt like they had far more weight and heft and love than his relationship with Swann, for sure. Two big reasons why I value those two movies so highly. Even though Bond isn't leaving for them, by the end of the film it's like "well, if he did that'd be fine."

Absolutely this is a big problem with the entire Craig era imo, on the one hand you hand what are elevated importance relationships but on the other what we actually get are oddly charisma free, minimal screen-time affairs that just don't feel in any way special or convincing. imo Bond & Carmille probably have the best chemistry on screen in this era (ironically the most distant of his parings) while I'd really question whether Skyfall would have the resonance it does were we only subject to the Dench of the preceding two films.

Well I am probably the very last to the party and even more socially awkward, but I agree entirely with Strangways&Quarrel - it's weird or downright stupid in parts, I could pull the plot and action apart till the cows come home, but overall I still actually enjoyed it. The outstanding question will be how it stands up to repeat viewing.....so more to come!

Strangways&Quarrel wrote:

Don't tease me with such a great, err I mean, silly idea, CJB.  


Well, fellow forum members. I've gotten around to this film at last. Seeing as I'm a socially awkward misanthrope I tend to prefer to wait for Blu-rays so I can watch a film was meant to be seen: In bed, after dark, in my underwear, with a bottle of Dr. Pepper. Here are my thoughts.

This film is just downright bizarre. This is like stumbling onto a weird yet still captivating fan fiction at three in the morning with a plot so off the rails and oddball it makes me wonder if I got sent a joke copy of the film or something. On one hand you have Bond face to face with his old nemesis in new form but on the other you have this weird, wacko conspiracy thriller involving global surveillance and Daddy issues. Though I can safely say cross-dressing Blofeld from DAF is much more intimidating than Waltz's benign super-villain who's turned SPECTRE into essentially a weird Illuminati thing where they sit around in darkened, not too well-protected room and stare at each other awkwardly. When we finally see Blofeld out in his desert lair he comes across more as a slightly annoyed Google employee rather than the criminal mastermind we all know and love. I also find it hard to believe that this is what QUANTUM would become plus Le Chiffre, Silva or even Mr. White (who is just wasted here, BTW) were working for this sad bunch of keyboard warriors hiding out in the most flammable lair you could possibly have.

Okay, breathe. Now what's positive here? Well there's a lot of fun sequences here. The train scenes are great, the gunbarrel is back, the pre-titles sequence is a blast, M and Moneypenney are well used here which is great because Ralph Fiennes is a bad-ass M. Despite lacking Deakins the cinematography is gorgeous for the most part despite some stupid shaky stuff in the opening plus the score is decent enough in parts (I'm glad to hear the Bond theme put to use more in the film). Lea Sydoux is a good bond girl although Monica Belucci's character is in and out of the film quickly enough to make getting her sadly a wasted effort for this film. Despite how stupidly easy it was for Bond to blow up the lair it was a good, although brief explosion. The chase with the plane was also a pretty fun sequence. Bautista's henchman wasn't bad although like every other good henchman he's underused and has one of the most cliche lines they could have come up with for his grand finale. Andrew Scott's character was laughably obvious from the get-go but his exit was a highlight although needed a Wilhelm scream for good measure.

Also I haven't brought up the titles sequence. Again, they just went weird with this one. Between the mediocre theme song and the grabby Octopus I felt more awkward than entertained by the sequence and given I'm a perverted shut-in that's saying something. I did like how the first ten seconds of orchestra meshed so well with the pre-titles sequence coming to a close though. The ending though definitely feels like they wrote it to be open enough to where if Craig wants to walk away from the series his storyline would feel complete but there's still enough there to make a fifth film if he wants to come back and although I enjoyed him here I wouldn't be too upset if this is his final film as Bond or would gripe is he comes back for one more. Overall I'd say I enjoyed it for the most part despite my negativity above but they took such a loony bin direction with this film it makes me question if Babs and her writers have gone insane and are at a dead end with where to go with this series.

lachesis wrote:

Xenia93 wrote:

The relationships with Kara and Natalya felt like they had far more weight and heft and love than his relationship with Swann, for sure. Two big reasons why I value those two movies so highly. Even though Bond isn't leaving for them, by the end of the film it's like "well, if he did that'd be fine."

Absolutely this is a big problem with the entire Craig era imo, on the one hand you hand what are elevated importance relationships but on the other what we actually get are oddly charisma free, minimal screen-time affairs that just don't feel in any way special or convincing. imo Bond & Carmille probably have the best chemistry on screen in this era (ironically the most distant of his parings) while I'd really question whether Skyfall would have the resonance it does were we only subject to the Dench of the preceding two films.

Interesting you think he had the most chemistry with Camille. I'd say the chemistry there is because of an underlying connection between the two of grieving for loved ones, but it's a platonic chemistry. Bond doesn't really want to sleep with her, even if he tried his luck at the end of the film - probably to numb more than anything else.

Severine is the best Bond girl of his era and I think any semblance of chemistry Craig has with his leading ladies would be found in her scenes in Skyfall.

I was hoping Madeline wasn't going to show up in the film again after she told Bond that she didn't want any part of their London operation.

Imagine if the lead Bond girl left Bond in the third act. Almost like Gala abandoning 007 at the end of Fleming's "Moonraker" because of prior obligations.

Yep - but even then, after all the trouble Bond went through to protect her, he just lets her walk off into the night in a different country - the country that still houses his opposition.

FieldsMan wrote:

Yep - but even then, after all the trouble Bond went through to protect her, he just lets her walk off into the night in a different country - the country that still houses his opposition.

Albeit, the scenes on the train establish that she can handle herself.

Yeah, maybe with a gun. Besides, Hinx slapped her and she fell down straight away - she's no Camille or Wai Lin.

And, she was unarmed when she and Bond parted ways.

FieldsMan wrote:

Yeah, maybe with a gun. Besides, Hinx slapped her and she fell down straight away - she's no Camille or Wai Lin.  

And, she was unarmed when she and Bond parted ways.

Hinx would knock down most considering the size and power of his fists! And he's presumed dead at this point in the picture (I hope he returns in a future flick).

The implication is that Madeline's father taught her hand-to-hand combat too, hence Bond skipping lessons with her.


(It has problems, but I really enjoyed SPECTRE on recent DVD viewings by the way, a complete U-turn).

I saw the film once in theaters and that's because I had free tickets. Essentially MGM/SONY had to buy me off to get me to see this film. Free should have meant that I was in a good mood to see it, but what I saw didn't prompt me to see it again in theaters.

So now I watched it on Blu-Ray yesterday; first time seeing it since it came out in theaters in early November. Haven't looked at my old review for it either. These are simply notes coming fresh out of my mind:

Where to start? It under-performs on just about every level. I used to be able to say that even the least best Bond film was always better than whatever else was out there, but that's not the case anymore with SP...or even QOS. And that's mostly because the Craig series has tried to be the same as other series, not different, so it gets judged accordingly.

#1 No joy. No fun. No real excitement. No sense of adventure.

#2 Very little memorable dialogue. No "No Mr. Bond, I expect you to die", or "Hi, I'm Plenty", or "You don't need the gun Commander Bond....Well, that depends upon your definition of safe sex." Drab, soul-less, lifeless dialogue with only "I can see you're in for a tricky day" as being anywhere close to something smart.

#3 No chemistry between Bond and Madeline.

#4 Plot everywhere yet nowhere all at the same time.

What really, really, really gets me about this plot is that the entire reason why Broccoli et.al. deep-sixed Brosnan's 5th Bond film, and Brosnan himself, was that they were afraid of being parodied into box office oblivion by the likes of Austin Powers or being considered irrelevant compared to just one Jason Bourne film out at the time. And yet they go and adopt the exact same storyline from AUSTIN POWERS: GOLDMEMBER without the slightest hint or trace of irony.

The story was the equivalent of a house built on quicksand: a foundation that would never hold up. Nothing good was ever going to come out of this plot concerning Bond and Blofeld being foster-brothers; it was wrong then, wrong now, and will be forever wrong. Just stupid and amateurish beyond belief.

Also got tired of seeing everything in shades of taupe, brown, mauve, sand, tan, orange, dust. They've drained all the color out of what should have been exotic, colorful locations.

Underused or mis-used locations. TLD did much better jobs showcasing Austria and Tangier.

The "torture" scene was exactly that: torture for the audience. Went on forever then used a cheap gimmick to get itself out of a jam. Bond didn't earn that, and the audience feels cheated. Basically Bond mows people down like he was in GOLDENEYE N64.

Woefully underwritten villain; the worst of the Craig series.

PTS was decent...but could have used a jarring action score to underline the set piece; which, by the way, is another problem with the movie: no discernible soundtrack. All the rest of the "action" was mostly underwhelming or very clinical; I never felt moved by it.

Title song perhaps the worst in the entire series? I mean it's just awful. And it's not that the theme is bad; it's just all out of tune by Smith. That's not the voice you want for a title song and certainly not the kind of song to punctuate a thrilling 12 minute pts. But when you're films have won back to back Oscars for Best Song, nothing's likely to change.

Bellucci was on the screen for 7 minutes: from 30:00 to 37:07. Wow! Why bother?

Movie spent too much time trying to be clever but Mendes makes a fundamental mistake in trying to conceal Blofeld's identity: 50% of the audience already knows who he is because of being long-term fans of the series. The other 50% will have no clue who Blofeld is, so the big "reveal" (which is delivered in an off-hand way anyway) is utterly meaningless to them. They've never seen Christoph-Waltz in the series before, so they have no frame of reference for why Oberhauser/Blofeld should be of any importance to them.

EON tried one too many times to give Bond's mission a personal component and it backfired; it exploded in their faces.

This is not a good film. I rank it lower than NSNA and TMWTGG because at least those two films had moments of enjoyment. SP is, for the most part, a dull, tedious exercise. All the fun of the series has been sucked out.

While I agree with a lot of what you say, I feel as though there is more enjoyment and fun in SPECTRE than in CR and QOS. And I'm glad you recognise (from how I interpreted it) that musically, WOTW is fine, but it's dragged down by Smith's vocals. For me, I like the music more than I loathe Smith's vocals, so I can enjoy the theme song to a degree. But it's still bottom three of Bond themes, along with AWTD and ATH.

Interesting note about the Brosnan saga. I never looked at it that way, but what you say is right. It annoys me that we got CR06 after DAD, without Brosnan and without a 5th Brosnan film between DAD in CR, but it vexes me because it was ditched, only to parody itself and Austin Powers more than anything else in the series before it.

I would've been all for Michael Caine make an appearance as James Bond's dad.

Gravity's Silhouette wrote:

So now I watched it on Blu-Ray yesterday;

Mine hasn't even been opened yet, such is the level of disinterest, especially when there's something else to watch. I keep hearing Daniel Craig's idiotic blathering to the press about slashing his wrists. I used to like him so much, now he's so full of shit, it just spoils everything. So I watch something else, there's always something else to see, even a past Bond classic.

I even enjoyed The Raid 2 more...

Still haven't picked it up on Blue-Ray. Just have no interest in it right now. I'll pick it up eventually to complete the collection. One day...

Gravity's Silhouette wrote:

EON tried one too many times to give Bond's mission a personal component and it backfired; it exploded in their faces.

This is not a good film. I rank it lower than NSNA and TMWTGG because at least those two films had moments of enjoyment. SP is, for the most part, a dull, tedious exercise. All the fun of the series has been sucked out.

NSNA and TMWTGG are miles better than this film. Other than wasted talent, the only thing that SPECTRE has going for it is the score by Thomas Newman. Beautiful music, and far too complex for such a boneheaded story.

After the best Bond movie in 25 years, EON managed to totally fuck this film up. I don't get it.