First Half or Second Half?

For arguments sake, we'd say the first half is up until the Air Base scene with Jack Wade. 

When I was younger, the first half of TND was ultimate Bond for me (along with FRWL and the first half of TLD), and I believe it's still the general consensus that the first half is better than the second. However, while the second half is more action orientated, I find there's a beautiful contrast with the cultural element as Bond's takes to the streets and bays of Saigon. All the while, Bond and Wai Lin grow closer through their commitment to their job. 

I find myself more drawn to the second half for the above reasons, despite still thinking the world of the first. 

Any other supporters/defenders of the second half at BAB?

Second half features the worst scene in any Bond movie post 1995.

Elliot Carver kung fu fighting.

The shock probably induced my very first period.

Really? That moment really outranks M/Bond/Vesper psychobabble scenes in CR, CGI parasurfing and CGI freefalling, "Madeleine LOOK AT ME!", Mr Kil vs Bond, the entire final act in SP, the little finger and finger licking scenes in CR, and "James, I am your Brother, Blofeld" as the worst scene post '95 in your eyes?

Yep. All villains would face-palm themselves over this.

Probably first half. Second half just feels too much like a Hollywood shoot-'em-up (not that the first half is lacking in this department but... err, sorry, too distracted by BC's avatar to articulate thoughts, carry on).

Though the second half has some old fashioned Royal Navy action, first half tends to work. Skipping the title song there's enough up to Paris' death, the car park chase and Bond arriving in uniform. Admittedly, Bond's line for Carver's payoff still prompts a slight chuckle.

Close call but I'd give the slight bump to the first half as you have the exciting opening, the scenes with Paris plus the car park sequence. On Carver's kung-fu outburst, I like it as it fits the character he's playing. He's a psychotic media mogul with all the money and manpower in the world so acting like a complete dork makes at times too much sense as those types tend to be.

Hilly KCMG wrote:

Though the second half has some old fashioned Royal Navy action, first half tends to work. Skipping the title song there's enough up to Paris' death, the car park chase and Bond arriving in uniform. Admittedly, Bond's line for Carver's payoff still prompts a slight chuckle.

I think had Bond left most of the explosive attacks to the Navy, the second half would be better appreciated (despite Bond's intention being to both slow Carver down as well as ensure the stealth boat shows up on radar). 

S&Q wrote:

Close call but I'd give the slight bump to the first half as you have the exciting opening, the scenes with Paris plus the car park sequence. On Carver's kung-fu outburst, I like it as it fits the character he's playing. He's a psychotic media mogul with all the money and manpower in the world so acting like a complete dork makes at times too much sense as those types tend to be.

Not to mention the Hamburg Break in and Kaufman's cameo. 

And 100% agree about Carver. What's a little dorky racism amongst megalomaniacs?

First half. The film tends to devolve itself as it moves along which is all harkening back to the incessant scripting problems. The finale while it does have some good lines and moments has unfortunately always seemed to me like a half baked attempt at redoing the Liparus battle.

I love the film and it is Spottiswoode and his editors that truly make it work as a whole. Despite some iconic moments it is the first half that has more story and energy. Plus it has my favorite scene in the film which is 007 searching Gupta's office.

That said my favorite score moment and to me the most iconic image from the film is in the second half. Bond and Wai Lin on the BMW R1200 cycle tearing through the streets while struggling for placement whilst handcuffed to one another-and then: "Who's driving?" here Arnold majestically punctuates with the Bond theme that gives an action cue the absolute perfect moment of both suave cool and humor.

If every film today was as well edited as TND and had a sound mix as good it would be so much more pleasurable to watch them.

hegottheboot wrote:

First half. The film tends to devolve itself as it moves along which is all harkening back to the incessant scripting problems. The finale while it does have some good lines and moments has unfortunately always seemed to me like a half baked attempt at redoing the Liparus battle.

I love the film and it is Spottiswoode and his editors that truly make it work as a whole. Despite some iconic moments it is the first half that has more story and energy. Plus it has my favorite scene in the film which is 007 searching Gupta's office.

That said my favorite score moment and to me the most iconic image from the film is in the second half. Bond and Wai Lin on the BMW R1200 cycle tearing through the streets while struggling for placement whilst handcuffed to one another-and then: "Who's driving?" here Arnold majestically punctuates with the Bond theme that gives an action cue the absolute perfect moment of both suave cool and humor.

If every film today was as well edited as TND and had a sound mix as good it would be so much more pleasurable to watch them.

So general consensus still is that the first half is better, despite the second half still getting a bit of love. 

We need more scenes like Hamburg Break In in the Bond films. The Wheelchair Access sequence in DAD and Bond stalking Patrice in SF are the only two sequences since that show Bond doing more grounded espionage work in the last 21 years (and Bond snooping around Elektra's villa and getting onto the plane and gaining access into the bunker). It's just the way it is when you have Hulk-Bond smashing through walls, ramming planes up the rears of cars, etc.

I do love that image/moment in the bike chase and it probably is TND's signature moment, however I can't go past this:

FieldsMan wrote:

hegottheboot wrote:

First half. The film tends to devolve itself as it moves along which is all harkening back to the incessant scripting problems. The finale while it does have some good lines and moments has unfortunately always seemed to me like a half baked attempt at redoing the Liparus battle.

I love the film and it is Spottiswoode and his editors that truly make it work as a whole. Despite some iconic moments it is the first half that has more story and energy. Plus it has my favorite scene in the film which is 007 searching Gupta's office.

That said my favorite score moment and to me the most iconic image from the film is in the second half. Bond and Wai Lin on the BMW R1200 cycle tearing through the streets while struggling for placement whilst handcuffed to one another-and then: "Who's driving?" here Arnold majestically punctuates with the Bond theme that gives an action cue the absolute perfect moment of both suave cool and humor.

If every film today was as well edited as TND and had a sound mix as good it would be so much more pleasurable to watch them.

So general consensus still is that the first half is better, despite the second half still getting a bit of love. 

We need more scenes like Hamburg Break In in the Bond films. The Wheelchair Access sequence in DAD and Bond stalking Patrice in SF are the only two sequences since that show Bond doing more grounded espionage work in the last 21 years (and Bond snooping around Elektra's villa and getting onto the plane and gaining access into the bunker). It's just the way it is when you have Hulk-Bond smashing through walls, ramming planes up the rears of cars, etc.

So basically, we need Brosnan back.

We need the character back instead of a witless thug who couldn't get past a single setpiece in any of the original films. The current iteration is so pathetic even Wint and Kidd would look to each other and ask if you were joking.

I think the magic of TND is that it was made in the final era of blockbuster tentpole releases that were thought out, designed and made primarily by hand and not by CG, spreadsheets and committees. If it had a fully cohesive script I think it would have more of an identity which is the real reason why I've never been able to warm to it fully. I love so many things in it yet have to consistently fight the urge to analyze it-and yet I don't do this with TWINE which is far more deserving of deep analysis.

I do think the half discussion is a good one. It seems to have a structure that works in parts, much like Arnold had to score the film entirely in sections. But at least it was made to fit together unlike DAD which literally dies at the exact moment Bond sees the demon jinx.

Hilly KCMG wrote:

FieldsMan wrote:

hegottheboot wrote:

First half. The film tends to devolve itself as it moves along which is all harkening back to the incessant scripting problems. The finale while it does have some good lines and moments has unfortunately always seemed to me like a half baked attempt at redoing the Liparus battle.

I love the film and it is Spottiswoode and his editors that truly make it work as a whole. Despite some iconic moments it is the first half that has more story and energy. Plus it has my favorite scene in the film which is 007 searching Gupta's office.

That said my favorite score moment and to me the most iconic image from the film is in the second half. Bond and Wai Lin on the BMW R1200 cycle tearing through the streets while struggling for placement whilst handcuffed to one another-and then: "Who's driving?" here Arnold majestically punctuates with the Bond theme that gives an action cue the absolute perfect moment of both suave cool and humor.

If every film today was as well edited as TND and had a sound mix as good it would be so much more pleasurable to watch them.

So general consensus still is that the first half is better, despite the second half still getting a bit of love. 

We need more scenes like Hamburg Break In in the Bond films. The Wheelchair Access sequence in DAD and Bond stalking Patrice in SF are the only two sequences since that show Bond doing more grounded espionage work in the last 21 years (and Bond snooping around Elektra's villa and getting onto the plane and gaining access into the bunker). It's just the way it is when you have Hulk-Bond smashing through walls, ramming planes up the rears of cars, etc.

So basically, we need Brosnan back.

I like the way you think. 

HGTB wrote:

 It seems to have a structure that works in parts, much like Arnold had to score the film entirely in sections.

And yet the score is arguably his strongest. Hamburg Break In, Paris and Bond, Station Break and White Knight are all exceptional tracks from the first half, but Bike Chase, A Tricky Spot for 007, Kowloon Bay and especially Wai Lin's theme and Helicopter Ride all feature in the second half and are some of the strongest tracks on the soundtrack.

First half myself. I actually remember a review of the time that gave the first half four stars out of five and the second two.

I think in sheer bombast and action movie sense TND is Arnold's best but it seems to tip the hat to Barry far too often for my tastes and comes across as sporadic in terms of matching the film. It's at its best when Arnold stops trying to emulate Barry and does his own thing-such as the cues mentioned above.
My favorite cue in the film is the bit of Hamburg Break In where Bond searches Gupta's office and it goes full techno. I also love the musical segue when Bond is left handcuffed to the shower head by Wai Lin and he tracks her to the bike shop-this moment lovingly references Surrender in a way that reflects the Eastern setting as its own.
I think the TWINE and DAD scores fare better thematically as they had more defining character themes and weren't written so haphazardly. Had he been able to write TND at one time I think the entirety of the score would be stronger.
But push to shove I can't choose a favorite Arnold score. I like them all equally but never truly warmed up to them as complete works the way I can the previous ones.

Of course...I have both CD TND score releases and play them regularly. I'll bet La La Land does it as the next score release since those are near complete or perhaps TWINE will be next. ( )

hegottheboot wrote:

My favorite cue in the film is the bit of Hamburg Break In where Bond searches Gupta's office and it goes full techno. I also love the musical segue when Bond is left handcuffed to the shower head by Wai Lin and he tracks her to the bike shop-this moment lovingly references Surrender in a way that reflects the Eastern setting as its own.

...

Of course...I have both CD TND score releases and play them regularly. I'll bet La La Land does it as the next score release since those are near complete or perhaps TWINE will be next. ( )

Yes, yes, yes. 

The cue when Bond tracks Wai Lin (or Wai Lin's theme as I call it) is one of my favourite pieces of cinema music. Soulful, cultural rendition of Surrender. And one of the reasons why I love the second half so much. 

And we're perfectly introduced to the second half of the film with the excellent Helicopter Ride track, which is one of the finest in the Bond canon, in my mind. 

And please, yes, La La Land needs to do a TND and TWINE expanded soundtrack release.

FieldsMan wrote:

hegottheboot wrote:

First half. The film tends to devolve itself as it moves along which is all harkening back to the incessant scripting problems. The finale while it does have some good lines and moments has unfortunately always seemed to me like a half baked attempt at redoing the Liparus battle.

I love the film and it is Spottiswoode and his editors that truly make it work as a whole. Despite some iconic moments it is the first half that has more story and energy. Plus it has my favorite scene in the film which is 007 searching Gupta's office.

That said my favorite score moment and to me the most iconic image from the film is in the second half. Bond and Wai Lin on the BMW R1200 cycle tearing through the streets while struggling for placement whilst handcuffed to one another-and then: "Who's driving?" here Arnold majestically punctuates with the Bond theme that gives an action cue the absolute perfect moment of both suave cool and humor.

If every film today was as well edited as TND and had a sound mix as good it would be so much more pleasurable to watch them.

So general consensus still is that the first half is better, despite the second half still getting a bit of love. 

We need more scenes like Hamburg Break In in the Bond films. The Wheelchair Access sequence in DAD and Bond stalking Patrice in SF are the only two sequences since that show Bond doing more grounded espionage work in the last 21 years (and Bond snooping around Elektra's villa and getting onto the plane and gaining access into the bunker). It's just the way it is when you have Hulk-Bond smashing through walls, ramming planes up the rears of cars, etc.

I do love that image/moment in the bike chase and it probably is TND's signature moment, however I can't go past this:

How about Bond spying on Greene in the Bregenz theatre in QoS, Bond playing the boy of the parking service to get entry and spy on the surveillance cameras in CR, Bond entering the Body Worlds Exhibition in CR to find out about the planned attack on the plane, Bond stealthing his way through The Day of the Dead Parade to shoot his target in SP (and seducing a woman for the sole purpose to climb out of her window and get unto the roof), Bond sneaking in the SPECTRE headquarters in SP, … (I'm tired, but I am sure I can come up with more).


That picture sums up quite nicely while most of my (female) friends frown at me and raise eye-brows. Followed by "Nah, I am not interested in BOND."

Kath wrote:

FieldsMan wrote:

hegottheboot wrote:

First half. The film tends to devolve itself as it moves along which is all harkening back to the incessant scripting problems. The finale while it does have some good lines and moments has unfortunately always seemed to me like a half baked attempt at redoing the Liparus battle.

I love the film and it is Spottiswoode and his editors that truly make it work as a whole. Despite some iconic moments it is the first half that has more story and energy. Plus it has my favorite scene in the film which is 007 searching Gupta's office.

That said my favorite score moment and to me the most iconic image from the film is in the second half. Bond and Wai Lin on the BMW R1200 cycle tearing through the streets while struggling for placement whilst handcuffed to one another-and then: "Who's driving?" here Arnold majestically punctuates with the Bond theme that gives an action cue the absolute perfect moment of both suave cool and humor.

If every film today was as well edited as TND and had a sound mix as good it would be so much more pleasurable to watch them.

So general consensus still is that the first half is better, despite the second half still getting a bit of love. 

We need more scenes like Hamburg Break In in the Bond films. The Wheelchair Access sequence in DAD and Bond stalking Patrice in SF are the only two sequences since that show Bond doing more grounded espionage work in the last 21 years (and Bond snooping around Elektra's villa and getting onto the plane and gaining access into the bunker). It's just the way it is when you have Hulk-Bond smashing through walls, ramming planes up the rears of cars, etc.

I do love that image/moment in the bike chase and it probably is TND's signature moment, however I can't go past this:

How about Bond spying on Greene in the Bregenz theatre in QoS, Bond playing the boy of the parking service to get entry and spy on the surveillance cameras in CR, Bond entering the Body Worlds Exhibition in CR to find out about the planned attack on the plane, Bond stealthing his way through The Day of the Dead Parade to shoot his target in SP (and seducing a woman for the sole purpose to climb out of her window and get unto the roof), Bond sneaking in the SPECTRE headquarters in SP, … (I'm tired, but I am sure I can come up with more).


That picture sums up quite nicely while most of my (female) friends frown at me and raise eye-brows. Followed by "Nah, I am not interested in BOND."

I meant infiltrating private quarters/private operation, so the Tosca sequence (as great as that is), doesn't qualify, nor does Bond stalking Sciarra or Carlos/Dimitrios. And when does Bond sneak into SPECTRE HQs? As far as I can remember, he is driven there, and then given a brief tour by his brother before getting tortured and walking out like nothing happens and makes as much noise as possible. 

RE: the TND screenshot. Considering Bond was intended for heterosexual males, I can see why most of your female friends aren't interested in Bond.

FieldsMan wrote:

Kath wrote:

FieldsMan wrote:

hegottheboot wrote:

First half. The film tends to devolve itself as it moves along which is all harkening back to the incessant scripting problems. The finale while it does have some good lines and moments has unfortunately always seemed to me like a half baked attempt at redoing the Liparus battle.

I love the film and it is Spottiswoode and his editors that truly make it work as a whole. Despite some iconic moments it is the first half that has more story and energy. Plus it has my favorite scene in the film which is 007 searching Gupta's office.

That said my favorite score moment and to me the most iconic image from the film is in the second half. Bond and Wai Lin on the BMW R1200 cycle tearing through the streets while struggling for placement whilst handcuffed to one another-and then: "Who's driving?" here Arnold majestically punctuates with the Bond theme that gives an action cue the absolute perfect moment of both suave cool and humor.

If every film today was as well edited as TND and had a sound mix as good it would be so much more pleasurable to watch them.

So general consensus still is that the first half is better, despite the second half still getting a bit of love. 

We need more scenes like Hamburg Break In in the Bond films. The Wheelchair Access sequence in DAD and Bond stalking Patrice in SF are the only two sequences since that show Bond doing more grounded espionage work in the last 21 years (and Bond snooping around Elektra's villa and getting onto the plane and gaining access into the bunker). It's just the way it is when you have Hulk-Bond smashing through walls, ramming planes up the rears of cars, etc.

I do love that image/moment in the bike chase and it probably is TND's signature moment, however I can't go past this:

How about Bond spying on Greene in the Bregenz theatre in QoS, Bond playing the boy of the parking service to get entry and spy on the surveillance cameras in CR, Bond entering the Body Worlds Exhibition in CR to find out about the planned attack on the plane, Bond stealthing his way through The Day of the Dead Parade to shoot his target in SP (and seducing a woman for the sole purpose to climb out of her window and get unto the roof), Bond sneaking in the SPECTRE headquarters in SP, … (I'm tired, but I am sure I can come up with more).


That picture sums up quite nicely while most of my (female) friends frown at me and raise eye-brows. Followed by "Nah, I am not interested in BOND."

I meant infiltrating private quarters/private operation, so the Tosca sequence (as great as that is), doesn't qualify, nor does Bond stalking Sciarra or Carlos/Dimitrios. And when does Bond sneak into SPECTRE HQs? As far as I can remember, he is driven there, and then given a brief tour by his brother before getting tortured and walking out like nothing happens and makes as much noise as possible. 

RE: the TND screenshot. Considering Bond was intended for heterosexual males, I can see why most of your female friends aren't interested in Bond.

The SPECTRE headquarters are in Rome and Bond uses the stolen ring to enter --> infiltration of a private meeting. Or?
And you have left out the hotel in CR when Bond plays the parking service which definitely qualifies for infiltration of private premises. He jumps behind the desk to look at the footage of the surveillance camera. The fact that he creates an accident in the parking lot first is really brilliant; that mixture of bad-assness, resourcefulness and genius is adorable. (Have you read that text I have posted which states that many women like the Craig cycle? Probably that badass behaviour is meant for a heterosexual female audience and that's why you dislike it (NEVER throw something like that at me when you can't take the retort)).

Do you really think that Bond was intended for heterosexual male eyes only? Not only that I could produce a similar list to the one above to prove the opposite (like the conflicting female gender roles in LTK which are NOT aimed at a male audience because then we wouldn't get something like Pam) and my next question is (and this carries even more weight): Do you really reduce Bond to porn aimed at heterosexual males? That's exactly the kind of thinking which unnerves me. I am a bit frustrated that I cannot prove to my friends that Bond is just more than what they think it is and you just confirm their prejudice. I consider this kind of thinking a prejudice against the Bond franchise, especially when you have not read Fleming's novels.
And now we can all lay back and relax because I am the target for the Craig cycle, being female and heterosexual, and I enjoy it immensely. Who cares your your opinion then?

I still think neither qualifies. It's too easy and over all to quickly. Those are scenes - I'm talking about sequences. 

Kath wrote:

Have you read that text I have posted 

No. To be honest, when we're discussing one thing, your posts tend to devolve into something completely different by the paragraph's end, with too many things to write back to, that I just move on instead. 

Kath wrote:

(NEVER throw something like that at me when you can't take the retort)).

Settle down. 

Kath wrote:

Do you really think that Bond was intended for heterosexual male eyes only? 

Ian Fleming wrote:

[My books are intended for] warm-blooded heterosexuals in railway trains, aeroplanes and beds

x

A person can just be indifferent who the books were intended for.

I grew up reading Jef Geeraerts and he was even more obviously writing for a male audience than Ian Fleming.

x

So I just repeat that for you, since you don't read my whole posts (which is downright respectless since you answer anyway):

And now we can all lay back and relax because I am the target for the Craig cycle, being female and heterosexual, and I enjoy it immensely. Who cares your your opinion then?
I want no more complaints about the Craig cycle because you are simply not the intended target group.
(AND, I could actually make a lengthy argument what strategies were used to make the Craig cycle attractive to women...but I won't. Why would I?)

FieldsMan wrote:

I still think neither qualifies. It's too easy and over all to quickly. Those are scenes - I'm talking about sequences.

Why are Bond's observation on the funeral, intrusion in the household of the widow and the infiltration of the SPECTRE headquarters sequences? Even if they are, they are consecutive and built up a whole. One observation / infiltration leads to the next.

FieldsMan wrote:

No. To be honest, when we're discussing one thing, your posts tend to devolve into something completely different by the paragraph's end, with too many things to write back to, that I just move on instead.

So why it is of importance if I have Tomorrow Never Dies in my list?
You don't even read the texts you claim to have read. I said I have POSTED a text. It is an article. I don't have the data to prove that women like the Craig cycle; the true author of this has.
Let me guess, you're too lazy to read the articles, too.
This is not about reading divergent posts, you simply ignore those aspects that do not befit your argument.


And of course Fleming was not an author who would write with tongue in cheek or wink at us. Like he never did in his novels.
I could show you that Fleming knew much more about a female perspective than you give him credit for, but as you don't read my posts I won't.

FieldsMan wrote:

Settle down.

Simple rule: If you don't read posts, you don't answer them.
And I do not take orders from you. I have told you that. Find someone else to order around. Why order me around if you're not interested in my texts? Why don't you just leave me alone?

Kath wrote:

(AND, I could actually make a lengthy argument what strategies were used to make the Craig cycle attractive to women...but I won't. Why would I?)

I'd be interested in reading that.

side note, women can be red-blooded heterosexuals, too.

I prefer the first half of TND to the 2nd. I especially like the way Bond gets the upper hand on Stamper's thugs and hefts the ashtray to test it's suitablility for bashing the last goon. The way he gets the upper hand on Kaufman and then shoots him in the head with his own gun making it look like he committed suicide. Karma in action. I like that the costume designer put SAS parachute wings on the shoulder of his uniform. Probably should have had pilot's wings on the left sleeve, too.
Not that the last half is bad. I like that Bond has a plan b when Carver shoots Gupta and I especially like that they upgraded Bond's sidearm to the P99. Not as thrilled with the dual wielding of fully automatic weapons. Bond is supposed to be an expert.