The Four most difficult Bond movies to decide on.

When it comes to ranking the Bond movies, I know which ones are definite misses and which ones are diffinite passes.

However, there are four that are right in the middle for me, and difficult to decide on?

You Only Live Twice
The Spy Who Loved Me
Moonraker
Never Say Never Again

How would you rank these four, or do I agree that they can be tough choices, with each having their own pros and cons to weigh?

I rank MR over both the other Gilbert films easily, but I do have a tough time between YOLT and TSWLM. IMO, they're pretty much neck-and-neck, and it really depends on my mood which I'd prefer. Both films are very epic in scope, heavily iconic in the Bond lexicon, plots are very thin and simplistic. Overall, they rank in the middle of my list. I don't feel too strongly about them either way. But if I had to pick one NOW, I'd probably pick YOLT, but I get why anyone else would prefer TSWLM, especially if they're brought up on Moore Bond.

NSNA I don't really find all that worth discussing.

YOLT ranks very highly for me,it's the film that has everything as far as i'm concerned and is more iconic than GF. Moonraker however is the polar opposite and ranks bottom, it's pure nonsense.
TSWLM sits in the lower third somewhere because they allowed the leading lady to be played by a gerry anderson puppet......as MP says NSNA is not on my radar at all.

I agree with the already-stated NSNA opinions.

Spy just about shades YOLT for me, I think (it's pretty much a remake of YOLT anyway ... swap spaceships for subs, and there you go). Spy is 'OTT Bond' done right, whereas MR goes too far so comes third for me.

YOLT and NSNA are absolute bottoms for me with very few salvageable elements (such as Barry's score).

I've got mixed feelings about TSWLM. On one hand, I find the villain uninteresting and his plot scheme too much over the top and I'm not a fan of the "soldiers invade villain's lair and big battle ensues" third acts, but I love pretty much everything else about the movie. Moore is at his best, the score is amazing and Barbara Bach is beautiful.

John barry diden't do the score for NSNA The trend for hiring actresses for there looks was poor judgement, and there have been some shockers but Bach is perhaps the worst

silvertoe wrote:

John barry diden't do the score for NSNA The trend for hiring actresses for there looks was poor judgement, and there have been some shockers but Bach is perhaps the worst

Oh, I know, I wasn't specific but I meant the score for YOLT. Unfortunately I have no passion for NSNA's mediocre score, so much so that I can't even remember the composer's name (though I'm well aware it's no one who scored the EON movies and if I recall correctly he was chosen by Connery himself).

Oh okay. Well my reason for not being sure on YOLT is that a lot of is good and entertaining, especially the action and spectacle, but there are a lot of meandering moments, such as the wedding, the Japanese disguise, and things like getting a bath and massages, and things like that.

The main detraction of TSWLM is mostly the dialog between Bond and Bach is so cringeworthy bad, talking about sharing bodily warmth and all that. It may win for having the most cringeworthy romantic dialogue of the series. Stromberg is also kind of forgettable as a villain overall perhaps. But everything else in the movie pretty much works and is well done, aside from those components.

For Moonraker, I actually do not mind the ridiculous of it and am totally open to a campy Bond movie. I would argue that as far as camp goes, Moonraker is better than the three
Tom Mankiewicz ones, because at least the budget was higher, and the action was more well done than those. But the problem I have with Moonraker is before the plot goes into outer space, the rest of the movie before it, mostly feels like a routine entry, and a routine plot structure, where Bond goes, here, action erupts, he goes here, action erupts, and it starts to feel repetitive or formulaic more so perhaps, and one note, compared to a plot being unraveled better, in other entries. Still though, the camp is done better than before, because of the budget.

For NSNA, I like the villains and feel they are better done than usual, which is what boosts this movie up. Connery I also feel does a good job in it too, and gives his best performance, since Goldfinger. But the action and spectacle, music, etc, are just too low budget compared to what came before.

But the acting and villains are good. But those are my reasons that make these four indecesive.

I'd go with:

1. YOLT.
The original set up. The 60s charm, the production design and the music elevate it above the others (though MR's score is fantastic too!). Connery's presence alone elevates it above Moore in TSLWM/MR (Moore's better work occurs in the 80s). And also staying in Japan instead of globetrotting gives us a better sense of travelogue.

2. TSWLM.
Interchangeable with MR really, but it has a little more focus. Could have done with a better villain scheme and a better lead actress to really milk what should have been an effective Bond girl dynamic.

3. MR.
It challenges what should be in a James Bond film but it's so shameless that it's hard not to enjoy.

4. NSNA.
As others have mentioned it's not worth mentioning. I know I said above that Connery's presence alone elevates it above the 70s Moore films but there's so much that doesn't work here it's hard to consider it seriously. The suggestion that the villains are better is questionable. They're so OTT, which is a shame because Brandaeur and Von Sydow are excellent actors. Carrera I haven't seen elsewhere but she's so cartoonish and hammy that it's hard to find any danger in what she or the others do.

Still, more watchable than, well, you know...

Walecs wrote:

I'm not a fan of the "soldiers invade villain's lair and big battle ensues" third acts

Interesting! I think it works very well in TSWLM, as it did in GF, YOLT, etc. Do you prefer Bond sorting it out himself, a la DN, TLD, GE?

Mr. Kiss Kiss Bang Bang wrote:

Interesting! I think it works very well in TSWLM, as it did in GF, YOLT, etc. Do you prefer Bond sorting it out himself, a la DN, TLD, GE?

I'd exclude TLD from sorting it out himself, since he actually needed the help of the Mujahideen. I'd count that as the last film to feature "Bond and the cohorts" trope. I do wonder how soon we'll ever see something like that again. The closest was SF, but that was more of a subversion of the trope with Silva and his cohorts invading Bond's lair.

Well after thinking about it, I might have to add Live and Let Die to that list of undecided ones as well. So I guess that makes 5.

ironpony wrote:

Well after thinking about it, I might have to add Live and Let Die to that list of undecided ones as well.  So I guess that makes 5.

Moores finest Bond ...but still no cigar!

Makeshift Python wrote:

Mr. Kiss Kiss Bang Bang wrote:

Interesting! I think it works very well in TSWLM, as it did in GF, YOLT, etc. Do you prefer Bond sorting it out himself, a la DN, TLD, GE?

I'd exclude TLD from sorting it out himself, since he actually needed the help of the Mujahideen. I'd count that as the last film to feature "Bond and the cohorts" trope. I do wonder how soon we'll ever see something like that again. The closest was SF, but that was more of a subversion of the trope with Silva and his cohorts invading Bond's lair.

Ah yes, somehow forgot about the Mujahideen.

Well, TND doesn't have boots on the ground as such but the involvement of the Royal Navy attacking Carver's stealth ship has that old school adventure feel about it.  But aside from the brief appearance of Wade's troops at the end of GoldenEye, you're right about TLD being the last to feature Bond with a squad.

I'd like to see it again at some point. Sorry Walecs!

silvertoe wrote:

ironpony wrote:

Well after thinking about it, I might have to add Live and Let Die to that list of undecided ones as well.  So I guess that makes 5.

Moores finest Bond ...but still no cigar!

silvertoe wrote:

ironpony wrote:

Well after thinking about it, I might have to add Live and Let Die to that list of undecided ones as well.  So I guess that makes 5.

Moores finest Bond ...but still no cigar!

So you don't like any of the Moore ones?

Mr. Kiss Kiss Bang Bang wrote:

Interesting! I think it works very well in TSWLM, as it did in GF, YOLT, etc. Do you prefer Bond sorting it out himself, a la DN, TLD, GE?

I do, yeah. The stakes feel much higher when he does. But it's just my humble preference.

Mr. Kiss Kiss Bang Bang wrote:

Well, TND doesn't have boots on the ground as such but the involvement of the Royal Navy attacking Carver's stealth ship has that old school adventure feel about it.  But aside from the brief appearance of Wade's troops at the end of GoldenEye, you're right about TLD being the last to feature Bond with a squad.

I'd like to see it again at some point. Sorry Walecs!

No hard feelings, Mr. Kiss Kiss Bang Bang!

ironpony wrote:

silvertoe wrote:

ironpony wrote:

Well after thinking about it, I might have to add Live and Let Die to that list of undecided ones as well.  So I guess that makes 5.

Moores finest Bond ...but still no cigar!

So you don't like any of the Moore ones?

LALD probably 6/10.... That's as good as it gets for me. I have made no bones about my opinion on the direction Moore took Bond IE comedy/farce, When i see Bond playing a clown or Tarzan or Lawrence of Arabia (i could go on) it makes me shudder and i can almost hear Fleming weeping

Everybody blames Moore for that shift, but it began in DAF.

silvertoe wrote:

When i see Bond playing a clown or Tarzan or Lawrence of Arabia (i could go on) it makes me shudder and i can almost hear Fleming weeping

Fleming doesn't consider himself to be in trouble until he starts weeping blood.

So Phlegmingesque.

Blunt Instrument wrote:

Everybody blames Moore for that shift, but it began in DAF.

Yeah. Might even be so bold to say LALD and TMWTGG are a little more serious. Certainly FYEO, OP and AVTAK are. DAF, to me, is an outright comedy.

In DAF Bond was not the buffoon that you see as the series progresses but the writing was on the lighter side granted.

NSNA is it's own thing. You can't count it with the others in the same way you can't count CR67.
NSNA is thus an alternate universe what if we actually did get to see. Some great ideas and two great performances with Sean and Brandauer trapped in a film comprised of nothing but compromises and setbacks.

YOLT is all spectacle and iconic bits and travelogue for Japan. It's to be experienced instead of get deeply involving.
Spy takes this notion and applies it to the next decade but in a way to reinvigorate the series and bring audiences back-and it worked. It has a greater focus on story throughout while still being about having a fun ride for everyone. This worked so well they tried a rinse and repeat with Moonraker which has a different flavor because of two factors: 1. making it in France to dodge the UK tax laws. 2. Immediately jumping in after the last one and also trying to cash in on the emerging Sci-fi craze.

All three are great but you have to understand their identity and foundational makeup.

Oh okay. Perhaps I didn't like some of the travelogue aspect of YOLT, when it comes to the wedding and Japanese disguise, but I do like a lot of the locations it was filmed in though for sure.

I thought NSNA still counts as a James Bond movie, in the sense that when other series make movies about the same character but they are by different companies, audiences, still consider of the same series though. For example, The Seven Percent Solution still counts as a Sherlock Holmes movie, even though it's not part of Guy Ritchie's Sherlock Holmes series.

Or how the 1976 King Kong movie, still counts as a King Kong movie, even though it's made by Paramount and not Universal like the others.

hegottheboot wrote:

Spy... has a greater focus on story throughout

The Anya subplot is so diluted and Stromberg wants to create a world beneath the sea. It's a pretty lazy goal.

For all its fault, I'd say there's greater emphasis and focus on story in MR.

Well I guess a lot of people like TSWLM more because Anya's plot is still a lot more unique than usual for a Bond girl, where as in MR, the Bond girl, is kind of just another sidekick bond girl in comparison?

When I referred to the greater focus on story in MR, I meant as a whole - the villain's scheme and how the mystery unravels - not specifically comparing Anya's subplot and Goodhead's character.

Oh okay I see. Well a lot of fans, not just here but other places, like YOLT better than MR, but since YOLT has much more flat Bond girls compared to Holly Goodhead, what about YOLT is better, since the other characters and villains are not as colorful either, which has been it's weakness for me, accept for Tiger.