The Problem with Modern Film Scores

Arkadin wrote:

Sharky wrote:

Scorcese's always had a funny relationship with film scores. A bit of a control freak, with a few exceptions.

Care to elaborate?

"As much as I admired film scores, you know how much I have collected each film score, Bernard Herrmann who I was lucky to work with, I was extremely lucky to work with Elmer Bernstein and Howard Shore. But I always imagined films with my own score because I didn’t come from that world or period of film making."

Perfectionist would be a better word perhaps. The worst case of this would be someone like Quentin Tarantino, who can't cope with not being in the director's chair, for every single aspect of production. Of course, he'd make an exception for Ennio Moricone, but no one else.

That's a rigid, almost autistic mentality. A composer's nightmare.

Sharky wrote:

Arkadin wrote:

Sharky wrote:

Scorcese's always had a funny relationship with film scores. A bit of a control freak, with a few exceptions.

Care to elaborate?

"As much as I admired film scores, you know how much I have collected each film score, Bernard Herrmann who I was lucky to work with, I was extremely lucky to work with Elmer Bernstein and Howard Shore. But I always imagined films with my own score because I didn’t come from that world or period of film making."

Perfectionist would be a better word perhaps. The worst case of this would be someone like Quentin Tarantino, who can't cope with not being in the director's chair, for every single aspect of production. Of course, he'd make an exception for Ennio Moricone, but no one else.

That's a rigid, almost autistic mentality. A composer's nightmare.

Great points here. This is a serious problem, especially today, when there are hardly any competent film composers left in the industry. Therefore, you've got these kinds of directors telling incompetent composers what to use and what not to use for music in their films. The blind leading the blind, one could say.

Most soundtracks for Scorsese's flicks, while I usually enjoy them, often sound like greatest hits albums, or compilation albums. "Taxi Driver" worked fine, on the other hand, where (I can imagine) Herrmann had control of what went into the film.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFxjRdw_4Ho#t=8s

Thought my sound card had shit the bed there for a moment.

Mr. Brown wrote:

Most soundtracks for Scorsese's flicks, while I usually enjoy them, often sound like greatest hits albums, or compilation albums.

I don't have a problem with this approach, per se. Kubrick was more interesting in compiling a score than hiring the job out to anyone, and his films feature some of the strongest cinematic uses of music I can think of. Scorsese doesn't have quite as strong a grasp, but his musical collage scores have usually produced a few strong moments (SHUTTER ISLAND being no exception on this front).

And, speaking of Scorsese film scores, I quite like Peter Gabriel's score for LAST TEMPTATION.

Mr. Brown wrote:

Sharky wrote:

Arkadin wrote:

Sharky wrote:

Scorcese's always had a funny relationship with film scores. A bit of a control freak, with a few exceptions.

Care to elaborate?

"As much as I admired film scores, you know how much I have collected each film score, Bernard Herrmann who I was lucky to work with, I was extremely lucky to work with Elmer Bernstein and Howard Shore. But I always imagined films with my own score because I didn’t come from that world or period of film making."

Perfectionist would be a better word perhaps. The worst case of this would be someone like Quentin Tarantino, who can't cope with not being in the director's chair, for every single aspect of production. Of course, he'd make an exception for Ennio Moricone, but no one else.

That's a rigid, almost autistic mentality. A composer's nightmare.

Great points here. This is a serious problem, especially today, when there are hardly any competent film composers left in the industry. Therefore, you've got these kinds of directors telling incompetent composers what to use and what not to use for music in their films. The blind leading the blind, one could say.

Yeah, not only that, but the proliferation and almost complete reliance on sample library 'mockups.' You know, software that's designed to emulate an orchestra, with one-button-does-it-all features. One thing, is that many young film composers (a lot of them my age) have been weened on Logic (the program mind you, not the mental faculty) and similar stuff, and can't write music the old school way - with pen and paper.

But the real thing that gets me, is how most of the directors/producers/excecs demand mockups from composers, on a regular basis. As if they have a right to hear every single measure, or they'll blame the composer for not doing so when they get to the scoring stage - and reject the score. Spoilt by technology.

There's no creative trust anymore, and it's one of the things I fear about, if I head into the world of mainstream film scoring. And if I do, I'll have a stipulation on my contract, that states I do not have to produce synth mockups. I can play the main the thematic (or non-thematic) ideas on the piano, just like John Williams still does.

Sure, it'd mean I'd get turned down a good deal, with possibly a few rows in the recording studio, but at least I'd keep my integrity. That's what counts in the end.

Y'know, if I were a director, I'd be tempted to ask for the score to be entirely composed and recorded before I ever started shooting.

That's the Robert Altman method, I believe.

I don't know when he had the score done, but I know for BRAM STOKER'S DRACULA, Kilar didn't actually score a cut of the film, he just produced a number of tracks and then Coppola mixed them into the film as he began editing.

One of the problems today, is that filmmakers tend to bring in the composer at the last minute, at the tail end of post-production - and then give them about a week or two to score it. And often, the cut is constantly changing, VFX are being added and subtracted etc...

Ideally, as a composer I'd like to see as much of the screenplay, storyboards, concept art, production design, location scouting shots as feasibly possible - and then start writing the score from there. Perhaps even being on the set to get that vibe from the performances, that a screenplay can rarely tell you. Beyond that it's a minefield.

Knowing my own creative instincts, I'd actually probably like to start with a script, then have a score--a set of an hour-and-a-half's worth of musical cues inspired by the script, not all of them perhaps with any distinct purpose but just thematic strands and mood pieces that could fit--and then patch together a score from that as a foundation for everything else about the film. Music is a key part of my imaginative consciousness, and it would be my natural inclination to build a film around music, rather than built a film and have someone construct music to fit it.

But yeah, asking for a score within a week or two is almost begging for sloppy results. Of course, some of the greater talents got by with impressive results under such constraints, but in general, that's not going to work out.

Music also fuels my imagination. Most of my ideas come from music.

This is a decent discussion that shouldn't be buried in 'rejected film scores'. Can one of the mods split it into a thread of its own?

I think Brown, Tux or Fields can split this into a 'The Problem with Modern Film Scores' thread, in this same category.

Sharky wrote:

Ideally, as a composer I'd like to see as much of the screenplay, storyboards, concept art, production design, location scouting shots as feasibly possible - and then start writing the score from there. Perhaps even being on the set to get that vibe from the performances, that a screenplay can rarely tell you. Beyond that it's a minefield.

Just curious, Sharkster- have you done any recordings or rough recordings of work you've done so far?

As a guy who knows quite a bit about film music, and with high standards, I imagine you'd be able to put together some interesting compositions.

Arkadin wrote:

Y'know, if I were a director, I'd be tempted to ask for the score to be entirely composed and recorded before I ever started shooting.

I think Daft Punk did that for "Tron: Legacy," but that movie is for dumb people, so it doesn't count.

Jack Wade wrote:

Arkadin wrote:

Y'know, if I were a director, I'd be tempted to ask for the score to be entirely composed and recorded before I ever started shooting.

I think Daft Punk did that for "Tron: Legacy," but that movie is for dumb people, so it doesn't count.

Getting your defence in early there, Wade. :)

Didn't Morricone write some of his scores for Leone before filming began?

Mr. Brown wrote:

Sharky wrote:

Ideally, as a composer I'd like to see as much of the screenplay, storyboards, concept art, production design, location scouting shots as feasibly possible - and then start writing the score from there. Perhaps even being on the set to get that vibe from the performances, that a screenplay can rarely tell you. Beyond that it's a minefield.

Just curious, Sharkster- have you done any recordings or rough recordings of work you've done so far?

As a guy who knows quite a bit about film music, and with high standards, I imagine you'd be able to put together some interesting compositions.

No, not yet. I've got it all on paper. I just need to screw the right people, and get an ensemble to record it. DogBond will love it.

RE: Pre-recorded film scores. It's not that uncommon. I believe Kazan and Spielberg respectively got Rosenman and Williams to record a few cues for EAST OF EDEN and RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK, and then played the music on set to get the actors in the right mood.

Everything that's wrong with contemporary Hollywood film scores in 45 minutes. Excellent radio doc. featuring James Horner, Lorne Balfe. Gabriel Yared, John Burlingame, Hans Zimmer, Gabriel Yared and others. Jonathan Coffey as the Louis Theroux-style interviewer/narrator.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03bfjqv/Sunday_Feature_Sound_of_Cinema_Composing_for_Hollywood/

As must-listen.

Largo's Shark wrote:

Everything that's wrong with contemporary Hollywood film scores in 45 minutes. Excellent radio doc. featuring James Horner, Lorne Balfe. Gabriel Yared, John Burlingame, Hans Zimmer, Gabriel Yared and others. Jonathan Coffey as the Louis Theroux-style interviewer/narrator.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03bfjqv/Sunday_Feature_Sound_of_Cinema_Composing_for_Hollywood/

As must-listen.

Indeed. Though it´s a tough game listening through what Lorne Balfe says without breaking or smashing things.

It´s fascinating that Zimmer comes from the same country as Kraftwerk, uses more or less the same tools, and does more or less the opposite from what they achieved. And that, paired with the prostitution/ruthlessness so aptly expressed by Balfe, IMO is the major problem with today´s film music.
It´s not at all because of technology or not reading sheet music. It´s a conscious block of the mind.
I could even without classical education orchestrate more creatively than most scores feature, and Steve Harris never wrote down notes.

I read a David Arnold interview somewhere here or there lately, where he also describes methods with temp tracks or the like, and the way he describes the whole process, it seems to me like it´s a kind of powerplay. If you somehow manage to stand your ground (or perhaps climb up enough arses), you may get by with whatever you do, and if not you have to overscore the whole film.

Mr Shark, in case you really are mad enough to join that illustrious industry, I would fancy if you could insert in your contract the option to release every score on CD, no matter if it´s used for a film or not. I should be interested in experiencing the directions your baton might take the mind.

boldfinger wrote:

Mr Shark, in case you really are mad enough to join that illustrious industry, I would fancy if you could insert in your contract the option to release every score on CD, no matter if it´s used for a film or not. I should be interested in experiencing the directions your baton might take the mind.

I'll do my best.

Just a shout out to everyone - 2 days left to listen to this.

Largo's Shark wrote:

Arkadin wrote:

Sharky wrote:

Scorcese's always had a funny relationship with film scores. A bit of a control freak, with a few exceptions.

Care to elaborate?

"As much as I admired film scores, you know how much I have collected each film score, Bernard Herrmann who I was lucky to work with, I was extremely lucky to work with Elmer Bernstein and Howard Shore. But I always imagined films with my own score because I didn’t come from that world or period of film making."

Perfectionist would be a better word perhaps. The worst case of this would be someone like Quentin Tarantino, who can't cope with not being in the director's chair, for every single aspect of production. Of course, he'd make an exception for Ennio Moricone, but no one else.

That's a rigid, almost autistic mentality. A composer's nightmare.

Late to the discussion I know but imo this is not just the problem affecting musical scores but blighting many modern films, they are becoming much more 'one persons' vision, modern film making techniques allow so much to be altered post production that many of the smaller but still important contributors to the process get marginalised - the composer is just one among many who's real talents are constrained by someone who is frankly less capable and more blinkered to one end.

lachesis wrote:

Largo's Shark wrote:

Arkadin wrote:

Sharky wrote:

Scorcese's always had a funny relationship with film scores. A bit of a control freak, with a few exceptions.

Care to elaborate?

"As much as I admired film scores, you know how much I have collected each film score, Bernard Herrmann who I was lucky to work with, I was extremely lucky to work with Elmer Bernstein and Howard Shore. But I always imagined films with my own score because I didn’t come from that world or period of film making."

Perfectionist would be a better word perhaps. The worst case of this would be someone like Quentin Tarantino, who can't cope with not being in the director's chair, for every single aspect of production. Of course, he'd make an exception for Ennio Moricone, but no one else.

That's a rigid, almost autistic mentality. A composer's nightmare.

Late to the discussion I know but imo this is not just the problem affecting musical scores but blighting many modern films, they are becoming much more 'one persons' vision, modern film making techniques allow so much to be altered post production that many of the smaller but still important contributors to the process get marginalised - the composer is just one among many who's real talents are constrained by someone who is frankly less capable and more blinkered to one end.

A degeneration of speech, so to say. Instead of having a variety of different letters, which together form something more than the mere sum of the letters, namely words and meaningful sentences, we have sentences like Aaaa nnn Gggg nn.

boldfinger wrote:

A degeneration of speech, so to say. Instead of having a variety of different letters, which together form something more than the mere sum of the letters, namely words and meaningful sentences, we have sentences like Aaaa nnn Gggg nn.

I think that is it, by no means does it preclude good or great films emerging but the factors coming to bear are much more linear and predicatble, we seem to be losing an element of inspiration.