Previous Debate: Outside influences on Bond

We all know that the Bond series is one of the most influential - if not the most influential - inspirations for the modern action/adventure film. However, the Bond series itself has become consistently prone to sucuumbing to the trends du jour, with varying successes. Some of these outside influences transpire into merely tongue-in-cheek references (e.g. the Close Encounters melody in MR), while others impact the entire tone and atmosphere of the film (e.g. blaxploitation in LALD).

As for the debate question: what influences do you feel made the best impact on a Bond film, moving the series in a more interesting direction? And which ones do you feel hurt Bond?

I realize this is not a yes/no type of debate, but hopefully it will yield some interesting dialogue.

The best influences for me were those in Casino Royale. The character and the films needed toughening up, and the film succeeded in that regard. Although it could be argued that these influences went a bit too far in Quantum Of Solace, which for me was still a good film.

I didn't like the influence of computer effects movies on Die Another Day, so that would probably be my pick for worst influences, with things turning invisible, computer surfing and virtual reality, that's just not Bond to me.

M wrote:

The best influences for me were those in Casino Royale. The character and the films needed toughening up, and the film succeeded in that regard. Although it could be argued that these influences went a bit too far in Quantum Of Solace, which for me was still a good film.

Agreed on that. A step in the right direction in comparison to all the other influenced films however it definitely could have had more of a Bondian feel, especially QOS.

Quote :

I didn't like the influence of computer effects movies on Die Another Day, so that would probably be my pick for worst influences, with things turning invisible, computer surfing and virtual reality, that's just not Bond to me.

Yup, pretty much a reaction to all those big blockbusters like THE MATRIX, MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE II, ect that for awhile became the norm before superhero films really boomed.

M,

What are the specific influences you see affecting CR? Is there a particular film genre you're thinking of?

Probably junk like BATMAN BEGINS, THE BOURNE SUPREMACY, the OCEANS films et al. All negative influences in my book.

Ed Tom Kowalsky wrote:

M,

What are the specific influences you see affecting CR? Is there a particular film genre you're thinking of?

It's hard to argue against the fact that Bourne heavily influenced CR and QoS. The assistant director of Bourne was brought on board specifically to give the action sequences a Bourne feel. The scene with Yusef in QoS is so similar to the Irena Neski it borders on a pure and shameless rip-off.

Specifically the visual style, action sequences, more serious tone and a few key scenes like the one mentioned above are all clearly borrowed from Bourne.

This is nothing new of course. Raiders heavily influenced Octopussy. Star Trek had more than a little influence on Moonraker. Though it is especially annoying they feel the need to directly borrow from a contemporary spy series.

I think Bourne and Oceans had positive influences (brutality, modern gambling and glamour), but the influence of Batman Begins is a bit more debatable because the series had never rebooted before with the appointment of a new actor and probably didn't really need to with Royale. As an origin story, Royale didn't really go in depth enough to give us the character from his beginnings, but it's still a very strong and contemporary Bond film.

Salomé wrote:

The scene with Yusef in QoS is so similar to the Irena Neski it borders on a pure and shameless rip-off.

While the influence in that scene can't be denied (protagonist meeting at an apartment in Russia), I actually thought they pulled it off quite well including Bond's meeting with M outside (it's absurd having M there but it works despite that).

I suppose I'd have to subject myself to Matt Damon for several hours in order to judge for myself the Bourne influence or its lack. And there's no way in hell I'm going to do that.

Although it came before the cinematic Bond era, North By Northwest is the film I'd say had the most positive influence on the series as a whole. The way Hitchcock presented the plot, along with the thrills and the suave (yet not too three-dimensional) leading man was in essence a blueprint for Terence Young and Guy Hamilton. And by the fourth Bond outing, the formula became so clear as to last the series for decades to come.

Regarding Bourne's impact, I'd say it did at least as much good as bad for the current 007 era. The negative consequences are obvious: the hyper-editing, Dan Bradley's action direction, the Bond/MI6 trust issue, Bond going rogue (not that he hasn't done it before though), the decrease of wit and colour, etc. Most of these developments apply to QOS rather than to CR though, which I thought harkened back to the early Connery era more so than most Moore and Brosnan films. Still, The Bourne Identity emerged at the right time to give the series a wake-up call. Would anyone actually claim that DAD was the better spy movie of 2002? As always following a bloated beast of a Bond film no matter how profitable, the producers overreacted - this time, rightfully so. Outside of some of the action sequences and lazy screenwriting, CR and QOS feel like grounded thrillers. I wish some of the blatant similarites to Bourne would've been done differently (ie. some of the fights, the globetrotting, the Yusef confrontation) and that more of the old-school, classy vibe that Campbell and Forster brought would've prevailed, but the man who walked out of that apartment looked 100% like good old Bond to me.

Outside influences on Bond i don't like:

CR:

Alexander Witt (Second United directer of Triple X/The Bourne Identity ) for CR. It is the agression (Toiler/Airport scene) i don't like that is a mix of Daniel Craig, him, the editor, the soundmixer and David Arnold. The Madagascar scene with the exeption of the end is good. (A preview of what we can expect for Bond 23 afterall.) The influences from Twine is not a problem for me.

Some lines.

DAD:

Christian Wagner (Mi2 lead editor) for DAD
David Tattersal. Cinematopgrapher of Spy Game. Hyped by LOTR Green color print. It is the Blue dark color print on Die Another Day. The Korea scene's and made the movie darker. In Spy Game this happend with the China scene's and the same problem be in Tomb Raider 2.

Some lines

QOS:
The screentime

Outside influences on Bond i like:

DAD:

The Iceland location intro in Die Another Day. (influences from Mi2)

QOS:
The Bourne Supremacy is like QOS more carefull with sound and music.
No Machiene. Like as in The Bourne Supremacy Bond don't kill who not should be kild.

QOS/Bond 23:

The Bond novels and earlier movies. In and around QOS the producers and writers take a look back to the novels and earlier movies. The Bourne Ultimatum look like it be needed to remember the producers to the past locations yused in Octopussy, TLD and Yolt/TMWTGG (Maroc &, Afghanistan, India & pacefull Germany, Yolt/TMWTGG: Asia) be yused. Madagascar already be a litle bit of Octopussy remember i like. There finaly found a way to bring back some of the old days of Roger Moore and a litle bit Sean Connery.

Doubt:

QOS/Bond 23:
There be a lot of symbols in CR/QOS to predict what we can expect and i have doubt or Bond 23 going to be straight a head or crossing the line. Iam am afraid the Entertainment, fun and respect be in danger. This because of Daniel Craig/CR, Tariq Anwar as editor and Greene his talking in QOS. Also whyle ia curious to Tin Tin iam afraid Daniel Craig his 2 project with Spielberg effect Bond 23 on the bad way. Some happenings be yused as excuse for something ele's.

The Bourne Supremacy camera angel for the airport scene. The flashbacks of The Bourne Supremacy look like the same camera style as the CR airport intro.
Stuard Baid (Uncredit 4th editor of Mi2) for Casino Royale

Sharky wrote:

Probably junk like BATMAN BEGINS, THE BOURNE SUPREMACY, ... All negative influences in my book.

Agreed. STAR WARS and political correctness didn't help matters, either.

The Bourne influence has been the cause of pure sloppiness in these films. Suddenly, off-the-wall camera movements become acceptable, all the while audiences watching these scenes can't understand what the hell is happening. Also, the "dark and gritty" characteristics may have worked well for Bruce Wayne, but, at this point, it's getting old in the Bond films and is completely altering James Bond's cinematic identity. On top of that, political correctness is infused in a politically incorrect character, and now we've got him dressing in drag and acting as a humanitarian.

Whatever happened to the guy who sat in the casino, indulged in high stakes gambling, smoked like a chimney, and had a few drinks? Oh, and I also remember him being a (rather patriotic) spy at one point or another, as well--not someone who disobeys direct orders, smashes through walls like the Hulk and beats people to death for the hell of it.

I think Hitchcock, detective serials, and the Cold War best influenced the series. Because of these, for a few films, we were given great espionage thrillers, rivaling the quality of Fleming's novels. I'm mainly referring about DN, FRWL, TB, TLD, etc.

I'm not fond of external influences on the films, or internal ones for that matter. Self-referential BS like YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE is nothing if not tedious.

One of the few influences I enjoy is that of THE IPCRESS FILE on the pre-titles of CASINO ROYALE. I'd have been more than satisfied with Campbell's black/white impression of that style being maintained for the whole film, as opposed to the garish colour and flat direction we got. The difference between Bond and Vesper's respective intros is night and day.

As has been said, Hitchcock's influence on Bond was probably most beneficial. Shame he never did a Bond film himself. Most other trends have been a nuisance at best, detrimental in their obstruction and dilution of otherwise solid stories by Fleming.

Good idea not attaching a poll, by the way. Encourages more discussion.

Mr. Brown wrote:

Whatever happened to the guy who sat in the casino, indulged in high stakes gambling, smoked like a chimney, and had a few drinks? Oh, and I also remember him being a (rather patriotic) spy at one point or another, as well--not someone who disobeys direct orders, smashes through walls like the Hulk and beats people to death for the hell of it.

I think Hitchcock, detective serials, and the Cold War best influenced the series. Because of these, for a few films, we were given great espionage thrillers, rivaling the quality of Fleming's novels. I'm mainly referring about DN, FRWL, TB, TLD, etc.

Apart from the smoking, Bond spent a good time gambling in CR and drinking in CR and QOS. Although he disobeyed orders (nothing new in the series though), I wouldn't call him unpatriotic. Elements of MI6 and CIA policy were characterized as corrupt, but Bond never lost sight of the real enemy - Quantum. That 007 follows his instincts - even if they clash with his orders - is part of his DNA.

Agreed on the Hulk Donkey Kong antics though. I found the construction site parkour fantastic, but on the whole too many of the action sequences of the last six films have looked rather forced and not organic enough. While Bond should remain at the forefront of state-of-the-art stuntwork, the emphasis should be on creating legitimate suspense and thrills rather than an overload of mundane action set-pieces. I also miss the detective Bond of the early films. The current detective serials like the annoying likes of CSI are nothing to take influence from.

Mr. Brown wrote:

Whatever happened to the guy who sat in the casino, indulged in high stakes gambling, smoked like a chimney, and had a few drinks? Oh, and I also remember him being a (rather patriotic) spy at one point or another, as well--not someone who disobeys direct orders, smashes through walls like the Hulk and beats people to death for the hell of it

The novels went much further. In those Bond hires whores and is a speed junky.Today, Ian Fleming is seen as a conservative, but that's because the left mistakes patriotism for dullness. The man was something of a libertarian when it came to recreation, believing in the legalisation of drugs and prostitution and, quite rightly, thinking that the state should get the hell out of his bedroom.

Story from '08 about an uncovered Fleming manuscript entitled 'If I Were Prime Minister', written for the Spectator in '59 in which he advocates turning the Isle Of Wight into a sort of 'adult theme park' full of casinos and brothels, and which also reveals him to be WAY ahead of his time on the subject of 'green' motoring -

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/3021649/James-Bond-author-Ian-Fleming-was-electric-transport-advocate-manuscript-reveals.html

Mr. Brown wrote:

Whatever happened to the guy who sat in the casino, indulged in high stakes gambling, smoked like a chimney, and had a few drinks? Oh, and I also remember him being a (rather patriotic) spy at one point or another, as well--not someone who disobeys direct orders, smashes through walls like the Hulk and beats people to death for the hell of it.

I generally like CR as a whole - but that part makes me cringe.

The free-running was a great action sequence. Well-shot, good pacing, awesome stunts etc. A personal favourite of mine out of all the Bond action-sequences ... except for that sole moment when he smashes through the wall. I can't remember where it was but I read/heard that it was meant to be like how dedicated he was to the job or some BS like that but to me it's just: No.

It was a bad choice.

Otherwise the rest of the scene is awesome.

As for the disobeying direct orders ... mmmm, I'm on the fence with that.

Wasn't disobeying orders an old staple diet of the series? When was Bond ever averse to follow a woman, to"fraternize" and generally do what he thought was best? And that was always depicted as the right decision, because he simply was the agent in place and had a better understanding of the situation than any desk strategist. And M generally was aware of this and trusted Bond's judgement, however reluctantly. Take for example TLD, here he's not killing a sniper woman and later not killing the cheka general because he suspects he's not the one behind the "smert shpionem". And was of course right in the end. I don't think that has changed a lot over the years.

I think that the best influences on the franchise were the political events going on at the time of each movie. The movies themselves are an interesting walk through history and the various problems that each decade faced.

FRWL and others had the effect of the Cold War and conflict with USSR.
TMWTGG had the energy crisis.
TLD had the Afghan fight against USSR.
Several of the early movies had prominent space race plot events like Dr. No shooting down shuttles and YOLT pitting space fights between superpowers.
Several movies focused on the threat of nuclear war, a major threat in the decades following WWII.
Craig's movies have dealt a lot with technology and its influence on controlling the world.