The Sopranos

Sharky wrote:

It's load of nihilistic, amoral, slick, superficial bollocks.

Yeah, kinda. It's a show that gets by purely on entertainment value. Definitely not the "best ever" TV show.

Sharky wrote:

First, you left out the finest and most ambitious GODFATHER film of them all - PART III

:shock:

Sharky wrote:

Loomis wrote:

Sharky wrote:

You're misinterpreting what I said. What I mean, is that THE SOPRANOS does not explore Italian American culture or Roman Catholicism enough.

That's an absolutely extraordinary claim. What's "enough"?

Something a little closer to the richness of THE GODFATHER trilogy. That's a fine benchmark, so I'll use it.

Use it if you will, but THE SOPRANOS - which taken as a whole has about ten times the running time of the entire GODFATHER saga - has much more richness and variety in these areas, on a much vaster canvas. What "Italian-American" culture does THE GODFATHER (any of the films) explore, other than gangland culture? THE SOPRANOS deals with Italian-Americans (and non-Italian Americans, come to that) of all ages and from all walks of life, which I'd be flabbergasted is something that's escaped your notice given that you say you have sat through the first four seasons.

Also, what is THE GODFATHER other than a ragbag of Hollywood cliche (highly entertaining Hollywood cliche, but Hollywood cliche nonetheless)? It's pure hokum and melodrama, about as realistic as GONE WITH THE WIND.

Sharky wrote:

Yes, but the THE GODFATHER films weren't supposed to be primarily about Roman Catholicism, yet they managed to end up as some of the most extensive and enlightening on the subject you'll ever find, in mainstream Western cinema.

Even if that's true (and I remain to be convinced), how is it a legitimate criticism of THE SOPRANOS if it fails to follow THE GODFATHER in this regard? Any more than it would be a legitimate criticism of THE SOPRANOS to say that it doesn't have a skiing scene to rival those in OHMSS? Why should THE SOPRANOS be THE GODFATHER?

Sharky wrote:

Also, class is never really explored much in THE SOPRANOS.

It's explored quite a bit (often through Carmela's snobbery, but what also comes to mind is Tony's golf game with Dr Cusamano and his friends, as well as the attitudes expressed by Dr Melfi's ex-husband). How is it explored in THE GODFATHER?

Harms, I thought I you would help my out here? You're abandoning your post.

Sharky wrote:

Also, what is THE GODFATHER other than a ragbag of Hollywood cliche (highly entertaining Hollywood cliche, but Hollywood cliche nonetheless)? It pure hokum and melodrama, about as realistic as GONE WITH THE WIND.

It's operatic cinema sure, but it's far from "pure hokum."

And since when is "realism" as must? If THE SOPRANOS's ragbag of Hollywood cliches is "realistic", then I don't know what to say.

Sharky wrote:

Why should THE SOPRANOS be THE GODFATHER?

It should be closer to the THE GODFATHER, not a carbon copy. THE GODFATHER is a simply a measuring stick, in this instance.

I'll reply to the other points in the next day or so, when I'm not working or asleep. I'll only finish this post, by saying you couldn't be more wrong.

I think I'll bow out of this one, because if you believe that THE SOPRANOS A. does not explore Italian American culture enough, B. fails to delve deeply enough into Roman Catholicism and C. does not address the mafia within a wider cultural or religious context, then I can only conclude that you haven't seen it. Whatever you were watching, it wasn't THE SOPRANOS. (Incidentally, if you loathe it so much, how come you sat through four whole seasons of it plus bits of the final season?) Next you'll be saying that not enough of the show takes place in New Jersey, or that there aren't enough shots of Tony eating. I honestly can't get my head around the criticisms you're making of this show.

Loomis wrote:

(Incidentally, if you loathe it so much, how come you sat through four whole seasons of it plus bits of the final season?)

Girlfriend made me do it. I tend to go for the domineering type.

Sharky wrote:

Harms, I thought I you would help my out here? You're abandoning your post.

I was waiting to see how you were going to expand on your earlier comments before leaping up into the fray.

I love to talk about the resonance of faith in stories, but, to be honest, I don't have too much insight to bring to the topic of THE GODFATHER and its Catholic influence, largely because I haven't spent all that much time thinking about it (despite generally admiring the films, I haven't spent much time considering the GODFATHER films in general). Obviously the GODFATHER has a strong moral compass. The films are bound up in notions of sin and guilt, notions that it directly connects to Catholic tradition by virtue of the stories continually returning to Catholic imagery and content (elements that GODFATHER PART III makes most explicit), but I don't know what else to say about it, beyond the fact that the film appears to be concerned with the way sin becomes embedded, both in narratives of personal choices and broader, communal histories.

(Speaking of GODFATHER III, BTW, Jonathan Rosenbaum's write-up on the film is pretty terrific.)

Sharky wrote:

Loomis wrote:

(Incidentally, if you loathe it so much, how come you sat through four whole seasons of it plus bits of the final season?)

Girlfriend made me do it. I tend to go for the domineering type.

Fair enough. :D

Frankly, saying the SOPRANOS is bollocks because it doesn't measure up to THE GODFATHER is setting your standards for episodic television way too fucking high. That's like saying that nobody should bother trying to paint if its not going to be comparable to the Mona Lisa.

Cheers, Harms.

Fairbairn-Sykes wrote:

Frankly, saying the SOPRANOS is bollocks because it doesn't measure up to THE GODFATHER is setting your standards for episodic television way too fucking high. That's like saying that nobody should bother trying to paint if its not going to be comparable to the Mona Lisa.

I'm just asking the painters in the market around Sacré Cœur to produce something a little closer to the Mona Lisa. That's all.

I'd sooner talk about SOPRANOS versus the other television series around than talk about how it compares to THE GODFATHER, which operates in a very different mode. But it's also been a while since I've seen any of THE SOPRANOS, so I'm at a loss to discuss it in great detail.

Looks like I walked in on this topic a little late.

Being a big Sopranos fan myself, I'm with all of what Loomis said there. Looking at what's been said, it's obviously not everyone's cup of tea, but each to their own.

Cheers, Toppers.

If I have one big gripe with THE SOPRANOS it's that its final season is disappointing. It isn't nearly as good as earlier seasons.

I also wish Janice had been given considerably less screentime throughout the show's run. She's perhaps the most annoying character in television history. I know that that's the whole point, but it hardly makes her any less, well, annoying.

Wasn't that bad of a season, but it definitely didn't compare to the earlier ones. Although, it did come out one of my favorite episodes, The Blue Comet.