Man of Steel ::: 14 June, 2013

Largo's Shark wrote:

Not too sure about that. His death is the most moving moment n the original film, IMO.

I agree it works. It's actually among the most personally moving deaths in any movie to me. But they should have given him more screen time. Hell, if we'd seen a montage of him raising Clark, his death would be even more powerful.

I do hope they give more attention to Jonathan Kent in MOS. Costner seems a good enough pick to me.

Agreed. The 12 year acid trip in the Fortress never really worked for me. But damn if Ford doesn't sell the hell out of that scene before he dies. It's fantastic.

http://www.superherohype.com/news/articles/172211-john-williams-superman-theme-not-in-man-of-steel

Williams's theme was not dark and gritty enough.

And it's too heroic. We need more naval-gazing in movies about aliens in capes who fly.

It's best not to have Williams' music, of course. I say burn all the bridges and start fresh.

This troubles me, though: "We have great respect for the canon. I would say it is a clashing of stories and ideas. Superman is the king-daddy of all superheroes - to make him work is a big deal. The big challenge is if you can make people feel 'What would you do if you were Superman?' That's what we went out to do as far as we could. Superman's always been this kind of big blue boy-scout up on a throne that nobody can really touch, so we tried to make him relatable."

Control wrote:

http://www.superherohype.com/news/articles/172211-john-williams-superman-theme-not-in-man-of-steel

Williams's theme was not dark and gritty enough.

Oh FFS. It's Superman, not Batman. It better not be something along the lines of Zimmer's Batman theme.

Jack Wade wrote:

Control wrote:

http://www.superherohype.com/news/articles/172211-john-williams-superman-theme-not-in-man-of-steel

Williams's theme was not dark and gritty enough.

Oh FFS. It's Superman, not Batman. It better not be something along the lines of Zimmer's Batman theme.

Considering the trailer, that's what I'd expect. Or at least something very solemn.

This "relatable" thing really irks me. Superman should be presented as the exact opposite of relatable. At least it seems that way to me. He's like a god walking the earth. He should be a distant figure.

"Relatable"...

That's the problem. The consensus among people in general is that they don't like Superman because he's "not relatable". So if they try to present Superman properly it's likely the film will not work with people. I noticed that there was a similar reaction to CAPTAIN AMERICA, people these days just don't respond well to the "boyscout doing the right thing because it's the right thing" part.

Superman isn't relatable, so why do they try to make him relatable? That's just swimming upstream. And missing the point. So what if he's unrelatable? Work with that, don't fight it.

The Clark Kent stuff in the Reeve movies was plenty 'relatable' to me.

Python wrote:

That's the problem. The consensus among people in general is that they don't like Superman because he's "not relatable". So if they try to present Superman properly it's likely the film will not work with people. I noticed that there was a similar reaction to CAPTAIN AMERICA, people these days just don't respond well to the "boyscout doing the right thing because it's the right thing" part.

There's some truth in what you're saying. Certainly movie-goers these days like edgier films and television. But CAPTAIN AMERICA and SUPERMAN RETURNS made good money, with a CAPTAIN AMERICA sequel coming out in 2014. Granted, Joe Johnston neutered the film just a little bit to make him not quite so 'American', but overall I thought the film worked well and was a nice throwback to heroes of long ago.

SUPERMAN RETURNS took a similar tack as CA, choosing to downplay Kal-el being American, hence the line from Perry White: "Does he still stand for truth, justice and all that?". But I think MAN OF STEEL is the wrong reaction to SUPERMAN RETURNS. The problems I had with SR could have been fixed in the sequel but, alas, Singer and Routh will never get that chance.

I'm prepared to like MAN OF STEEL, but I wish Singer and Routh had been given another shot at Superman. I don't know what constitutes a hit anymore. SUPERMAN RETURNS made $400 million at the box office back in 2006, which was a couple million more than BATMAN BEGINS made the year before, yet Nolan went on to do two mega-sequels while Singer and Routh were politely shown the door. Good luck to Snyder and Cavill on this new Superman movie. I will keep an open mind about MOS only because Cavill is in it.

Superman CAN be relatable. But it's not in making him darker, or grittier, or angrier, or making him conflicted about who he is or why he does what he does. Clark knows that doing the right thing is the right thing to do. Simple as that. He knows that the best use for his powers is helping people. In the original comics from the 30s/40s, he knew that without even knowing he was from Krypton. He didn't discover his heritage until he'd been Superman for a while already.

Clark may be from Krypton, but he was raised on a farm in Kansas and that's how you make him relatable. He's a good person. Pure and simple. He's not a god, he's not a judge, he's an ideal. He leads by example. He's there to inspire us to believe that we can be better than we are. He's a champion of the oppressed, fighting a battle for truth, justice and the American Way and what's more American than the ideal of self-improvement? He fights that battle in and out of costume -- after all, freedom of the press is the 1st Amendment, and a reporter should stand for truth and justice.

Superman shouldn't be some all-powerful stone-faced god, but that doesn't mean you turn him into flawed, feeble, Peter Parker, either. All that navel gazing about "what makes a hero?" and "am I doing the right thing?" is for Marvel heroes. Superman knows what the right thing to do is. So does Batman -- even if his interpretation of "the right thing" is different from Clark's. That was one thing that bugged me about Nolan's Batman -- where was the grim determination? Where was the vow to war on crime? Nolan's Batman became a big sobby mess who wanted to give up once his childhood crush was killed.

I think the issue may be that the creative forces behind MAN OF STEEL have had their greatest success adapting the works of Alan Moore, Frank Miller, etc. Batman, Blade, Watchmen, 300, and so on. Those aren't exactly properties that speak to a great view of Superman. Granted, Bruce Timm was able to go from doing a great BATMAN to a great SUPERMAN, but generally speaking the techniques that work with one do not work with the other, unless that technique is "be true to who this character is".

From Superman #1, 1939:



Granted, Singer claimed to be a huge Superman fan too, and also f*cked up royally. But then, his Superman was just Donner's Superman with more CGI. 60% of the dialogue was just unironically cribbed from Mankiewicz. RETURNS was a nostalgia trip and what new elements it did bring to the table were questionable at best. But it sounds like Snyder & Co. are falling into the same trap: probably an hour and a half into the movie before we actually get some Superman I'm betting, with the first two acts just being Clark biding time having innner conflict while the audience grows restless, and then he'll fight a villain we've already seen before because heaven forbid a Superman movie use a villain from his comics rogues gallery that wasn't in one of the two Donner movies.

Recently watched an animated Superman feature called SUPERMAN VS. THE ELITE, which is I think a great response to the whole foolhardy notion that Superman needs to be darker and more extreme to fit in with the 21st century. Here's a page from the original comic the feature was based on:

Educational & enlightening as always, Sykes.

You'll believe a man can get arrested.



Clearly Tom Mankiewicz didn't write this.

The White Tuxedo wrote:

You'll believe a man can get arrested.

Clearly Tom Mankiewicz didn't write this.

A full-length trailer is scheduled to be released by December 14th. It's coming out with THE HOBBIT, but hopefully it'll leak online a few days before THE HOBBIT comes out. I've kind of seen a blurry version from Comic-Con, but I'd like to see something newer and cleaner. It sounded a lot like Superman Returns...and Superman...and Superman II. It looks like we're getting a variation on the origin story yet again. Snyder better come up with something big for this film, otherwise there will be hell to pay.

The White Tuxedo wrote:

You'll believe a man can get arrested.

Zod damnit! This is not what I want from my Superman stories.

I hope Superman getting arrested is some kind of shitty metaphor or something and not actually a thing that happens.

Jack Wade wrote:

I hope Superman getting arrested is some kind of shitty metaphor or something and not actually a thing that happens.

He'll get arrested, break out, stomp all over the American flag, and blow up a logging company. And play hackysack.

Jack Wade wrote:

I hope Superman getting arrested is some kind of shitty metaphor or something and not actually a thing that happens.

Don't hold your breath - we are talking about Zack Snyder here.

I've heard people say "how the hell do handcuffs hold Superman? Why wouldn't he break out?"

Actually, I have no problem with that. If the government decided to arrest Superman he would totally decide to go along quietly.

My problem is why the hell are we making a movie where the US govt arrests Superman??

This new Superbloke looks pretty deep n' gritty.

Saw the pic on Facebook last night ... my reaction was 'Yeah, the suit still looks like shit'.

Jack Wade wrote:

I hope Superman getting arrested is some kind of shitty metaphor or something and not actually a thing that happens.

It's a metaphor for something that actually happens: he is arrested by the U.S. military. You see, we need a Superman that we can all relate to. We need a director that can break Superman down and deconstruct him for audiences. Not because he's the superhero we want, but he's the superhero we deserve. A watchful guardian. A silent protector. A dark man of steel.

I really hope that image has been messed around with, and that it's not what the actual suit will look like.