Kim Novak Feels Violated By Use Of ‘Vertigo’ Score in 'The Artist'

http://www.deadline.com/2012/01/not-everyone-loves-the-artist-kim-novak-feels-violated-by-use-of-vertigo-score/

She might be acting a bit dramatic--or perhaps not, because it's the best movie she's ever been in--but, I agree with her. I think it's cheap to use a piece of a previously-written score to enhance your film. And to take from one of the greatest film scores of all time? I'd bet that Hitchcock and Herrmann wouldn't be too happy about this, either.

I hope the Herrmann estate speaks out, especially if it was done without permission.

-- Brownster: have you started on the book yet?

It was done legally. But, it's still bullshit.

Mr. Brown wrote:

It was done legally. But, it's still bullshit.

Your book?

Sharky wrote:

-- Brownster: have you started on the book yet?

Reading it for a 2nd time. It's fantastic, and thanks so much for recommending it to me.

Talk about a man who was devoted to his work. The chapters covering his early years in NYC and his time with the Young Composers Group were hilarious to read at certain points. His years after the separation from CBS were the most interesting, to me. The biography's packed full of information. I wish I knew a bit more about music composition and terms, though.

Perilagu Khan wrote:

Mr. Brown wrote:

It was done legally. But, it's still bullshit.

Your book?

No, the use of Herrmann's music in "The Artist".

Mr. Brown wrote:

I wish I knew a bit more about music composition and terms, though.

If you got any questions, just ask.

Herrman is credited.

She's an idiot. Why didn't she kick up the same fuss when Twelve Monkeys came out?

If you're going to complain about that then you might as well complain about any use of any source music in any film ever made, since they're all repurposing an original work of "art."

It's lazy and pathetic. Just like all of Tarantino's soundtracks. Or hack "fine artists" who chop up the works of masters to create "humorous" collages or "original" pieces.

Herrmann wrote the music for VERTIGO, not THE ARTIST. The director of the film speaks so highly of VERTIGO and its score; if he really thought so highly of it, he would have had his composer write something as inspiring as Herrmann's music, rather than just downright ripping it off.

Novak might need to get a grip, but she's made a good point.

I don't feel as strongly against collage soundtracks as some do here (for better or worse, the collage soundtrack very much fits with everything Tarantino is attempting as a filmmaker, since all his movies are essentially collages). But I vehemently dislike the use of "Scene D'Amour" in THE ARTIST, because it's unnecessary and inappropriate for the film to utilize it.

Mr. Brown wrote:

It's lazy and pathetic.

Isn't there source music in Vertigo itself, though?

I don't see how it's lazy. The rationale seems to be that the filmmaker has a very specific idea for what the music accompanying a given part of his (or her) film should be, rather than having another artist interpret that work and provide something similar but not quite what the filmmaker had in mind. That might seem narrow-minded and selfish, but it's very much a "director is king" thing, which has to be the mindset if Hitchcock is supposed to be rolling in his grave about the use of Herrmann's music.

In fact, I'd think that the "inspired by" version, the facimile would be more of a rip-off than just using and crediting the original work. If Brian De Palma copies a shot from a Hitchcock film (yeah, if), isn't that just as lazy. Yeah, he's reinterpreting it, but so too is Hazanavicius reinterpreting it by applying that music to a different set of images than it was originally conceived for.

I haven't seen The Artist, and the actual execution of that idea might be lazy and inappropriate or whatever, but this idea that pre-existing pieces of music are off-limits for filmmakers, and that films should only ever have an original score or nothing is pretty narrow-minded. Is Days of Heaven "lazy" because it uses "The Aquarium"? 2001 must be the height of laziness if the standard is you can't use pre-existing music.

FourDot wrote:

Mr. Brown wrote:

It's lazy and pathetic.

Isn't there source music in Vertigo itself, though?

I can't remember any, except an organ church pieced written by Herrmann before Scottie checks out Carlotta's grave.

Sharky wrote:

FourDot wrote:

Mr. Brown wrote:

It's lazy and pathetic.

Isn't there source music in Vertigo itself, though?

I can't remember any, except an organ church pieced written by Herrmann before Scottie checks out Carlotta's grave.

I'm talking diegetic; I should have specified.

FourDot wrote:

Sharky wrote:

FourDot wrote:

Mr. Brown wrote:

It's lazy and pathetic.

Isn't there source music in Vertigo itself, though?

I can't remember any, except an organ church pieced written by Herrmann before Scottie checks out Carlotta's grave.

I'm talking diegetic; I should have specified.

It's the same thing, innit? I'm pretty sure that Herrmann organ piece is the only one, though there could be some jazz playing on Midge's radio. Nothing else comes to mind, honestly.

I'm with FourDot on this. I don't have a problem with using source music whether it's classical, from a rock album, or another film's soundtrack. It's all the same to me and the only rule I would apply to using source music is if it actually WORKS for the film. Just because anyone like Hermann made a score for a film doesn't make it verboten to use for anything beyond that specific film. As long as it's effective, complements the music and vice versa, I don't see the issue. I haven't seen THE ARTIST though, so I don't really have a say on how well Hermann's cue is integrated. One bad use of source music I can recall recently is the very last scene of the Smallville finale utilizing John Williams' "Superman" cue. The music that's playing simply doesn't match what's on screen, feels less of a tribute and more of a hack fanboy job.

Sharky wrote:

FourDot wrote:

Sharky wrote:

FourDot wrote:

Mr. Brown wrote:

It's lazy and pathetic.

Isn't there source music in Vertigo itself, though?

I can't remember any, except an organ church pieced written by Herrmann before Scottie checks out Carlotta's grave.

I'm talking diegetic; I should have specified.

It's the same thing, innit? I'm pretty sure that Herrmann organ piece is the only one, though there could be some jazz playing on Midge's radio. Nothing else comes to mind, honestly.

I thought that the Barbara Bel Geddes played something pre-existing on the gramophone, but I could be wrong.

Quote :

'It shows vulgarity, also, when a director uses music previously composed. I think that "2001: A Space Odyssey" is the height of vulgarity in our time. To have outer space accompanied by "The Blue Danube Waltz," and the piece not even recorded anew! They just used gramophone records . . . ("Death in Venice" is a different kind of thing altogether) . . .'

-- Bernard Herrmann, from his 1973 symposium at Eastman College on the function of sound and music in film.

I like the guy, but I disagree with him.

So 2001 is a piece of crap now that Bernie says so?

Hey, don't shoot the messenger.

Sharky wrote:

FourDot wrote:

Sharky wrote:

FourDot wrote:

Mr. Brown wrote:

It's lazy and pathetic.

Isn't there source music in Vertigo itself, though?

I can't remember any, except an organ church pieced written by Herrmann before Scottie checks out Carlotta's grave.

I'm talking diegetic; I should have specified.

It's the same thing, innit? I'm pretty sure that Herrmann organ piece is the only one, though there could be some jazz playing on Midge's radio. Nothing else comes to mind, honestly.

The dance music later in the film. I think it lasted 5-10 seconds, though.

Sharky wrote:

Quote :

'It shows vulgarity, also, when a director uses music previously composed. I think that "2001: A Space Odyssey" is the height of vulgarity in our time. To have outer space accompanied by "The Blue Danube Waltz," and the piece not even recorded anew! They just used gramophone records . . . ("Death in Venice" is a different kind of thing altogether) . . .'

-- Bernard Herrmann, from his 1973 symposium at Eastman College on the function of sound and music in film.

The guy was a magnificent composer, but his ideas about film music were, to say the least, rather narrow.

I don't think he's too far off, if you think of his words in regards to film music--the art form that he specialized in. Isn't it obviously lazy to throw previously composed and recorded music into a film? And to do that after Mr. North composed an interesting original score. That's not saying that it doesn't work, or that the selections were wrong for the film, or that it makes 2001 any less brilliant, though.


Nice find, by the way, Sharky.

Mr. Brown wrote:

Isn't it obviously lazy to throw previously composed and recorded music into a film?

Does it necessarily require less effort from the filmmaker themselves? The only person who's been cut out of the equation is either the composer or the hypothetical, non-existent composer. Using existing music then shifts the burden back to the filmmaker, who is immediately made accountable for the music in those cases. They still have to set it to the images or vice-versa. They still have to put in the same amount of effort, except, perhaps, they don't have to interface with a musician.

In fact, in 2001's case, it might have required more effort, since North's work was tailored specifically for the film (I would think).

FourDot wrote:

They still have to put in the same amount of effort, except, perhaps, they don't have to interface with a musician.

"Same amount of effort."



Bitch please. You don't know what you're talking about.

Tracking in a piece of temp music from any source (where archival, public domain, or from another score) and fitting it into the picture, with the luxury of being able to edit around it, is a relative walk in the park next to writing an original piece of music to accompany that segment of film, while hitting all the required sync points, providing the necessary subtext, counterpoint or commentary, and then have that realised on the scoring stage, with the full possibility always looming that your music could be thrown out at the last minute, and yourself replaced.

Unless you get serious studio intervention like Welles (which is pretty rare today), the director and editor are always in the driving seat. They can fuck around as much as they want with their film - it's their baby.

9 times out of 10, a composer doesn't have that freedom. They're just another cog in the works.

FourDot wrote:

In fact, in 2001's case, it might have required more effort, since North's work was tailored specifically for the film (I would think).

To get the facts straight, North's score was composed to fill in several "blanks" where in the final film there presently is no music (i.e. the entire Dawn of Man segment). Kubrick always kept North in the dark about his intentions, with many times setting his hopes up that he loved what North was doing. Keep in mind here that North was having serious back problems, and was in pain while trying to churn out as much music as quickly as possible (with the help of orchestrator Henry Brant, who had to conduct the score, since North was having stress related spasms), so Kubrick could later sit back in the editing suite and play around with it.

All in all, it took very little effort for Kubrick to simply stick with the classical temp pieces he'd always intended to use (despite the studio's insistence on having North score it), and completely throw aside North's score.

Mr. Brown wrote:

Nice find, by the way, Sharky.

It's from your book.