Previous Debate: How do you feel about the beach scene in GoldenEye?

Rather open-ended question. What are your thoughts on the scene?

One thing I've always wondered about: Bond saying that he's cold because it keeps him alive. That doesn't gel with the character, IMO; I always thought he was cold in order to protect those innocent people with whom he could potentially form relationships but refuses to get deeply involved with. Fleming's Vesper effect, if you will.

What say you?

I hate the beach scene, but as much for the way they say it as for what they say.

It's a lousy scene.

It's a good scene, beautifully scored by Eric Serra and lensed by Phil Meheux. Though TBH, I prefer the bed scene right after it.

Quote :

I always thought he was cold in order to protect those innocent people with whom he could potentially form relationships but refuses to get deeply involved with.

Remember the line in Fleming's GOLDFINGER, about having to be as detached as a surgeon, to keep that death watch beetle in the soul at bay? It's another way of saying the same thing. If Bond doesn't keep that detachment, he risks cracking, or else endangering his life and those of others (discounting the villains of course).

Crotch shot!

Sharky wrote:

It's a good scene, beautifully scored by Eric Serra and lensed by Phil Meheux. Though TBH, I prefer the bed scene right after it.

Quote :

I always thought he was cold in order to protect those innocent people with whom he could potentially form relationships but refuses to get deeply involved with.

Remember the line in Fleming's GOLDFINGER, about having to be as detached as a surgeon, to keep that death watch beetle in the soul at bay? It's another way of saying the same thing. If Bond doesn't keep that detachment, he risks cracking, or else endangering his life and those of others (discounting the villains of course).

Pretty much sums up my thoughts on the matter. Overall, I rate this scene rather highly.

It´s cheesy, crappy dialogue but, even worse, they appear to be taking it seriously. And I hate Serra´s score.

It's fine dialogue, and if this doesn't move you (2:48 to the end nearly brings tears to my eyes) there is something very wrong with you.

I think it's safe to say there's something very wrong with me :) . Just another way in which you and I are incompatible, Sharky. Sigh.

Louis Armstrong wrote:

Rather open-ended question. What are your thoughts on the scene?

One thing I've always wondered about: Bond saying that he's cold because it keeps him alive. That doesn't gel with the character, IMO; I always thought he was cold in order to protect those innocent people with whom he could potentially form relationships but refuses to get deeply involved with. Fleming's Vesper effect, if you will.

What say you?

Well, there's a line somewhere in Fleming (sorry, I completely forget which novel) to the effect that Bond always studiously avoids looking back on violent actions of the past because he knows that that way madness lies, and he knows this because he knows of people who screwed themselves up by dwelling on such things. I guess you could interpret this attitude as "cold", so in a sense Bond telling Natalya that he's cold because it keeps him alive chimes perfectly with Fleming's Bond.

Sharky wrote:

Quote :

I always thought he was cold in order to protect those innocent people with whom he could potentially form relationships but refuses to get deeply involved with.

Remember the line in Fleming's GOLDFINGER, about having to be as detached as a surgeon, to keep that death watch beetle in the soul at bay? It's another way of saying the same thing. If Bond doesn't keep that detachment, he risks cracking, or else endangering his life and those of others (discounting the villains of course).

Loomis wrote:

Louis Armstrong wrote:

Rather open-ended question. What are your thoughts on the scene?

One thing I've always wondered about: Bond saying that he's cold because it keeps him alive. That doesn't gel with the character, IMO; I always thought he was cold in order to protect those innocent people with whom he could potentially form relationships but refuses to get deeply involved with. Fleming's Vesper effect, if you will.

What say you?

Well, there's a line somewhere in Fleming (sorry, I completely forget which novel) to the effect that Bond always studiously avoids looking back on violent actions of the past because he knows that that way madness lies, and he knows this because he knows of people who screwed themselves up by dwelling on such things. I guess you could interpret this attitude as "cold", so in a sense Bond telling Natalya that he's cold because it keeps him alive chimes perfectly with Fleming's Bond.

It's from Fleming's GOLDFINGER - Reflections in a Double Bourbon, chapter 1.

So he's cold because it keeps him sane, more than it keeps him 'alive'... not sure I'm buying it. To me, the beach scene seems to evoke the notion that Bond must guard himself emotionally because there are traitors everywhere and damned if Bond is going to be betrayed.

I don't care much for the scene. Hopelessly melodramatic. Much prefer the scene where Bond & Natalya converse in the jail cell, probably my favourite GE scene. I do like the image of Bond brooding out on the beach, however. I think Bond should be introverted and reflective like that more often.

It was one of the bad moments in GE. And did not fit the characters in the movie, suddenly she is an expert on James Bond the man that keeps rescueing her. I am not sure when that happened.

Louis Armstrong wrote:

So he's cold because it keeps him sane, more than it keeps him 'alive'.

In Bond's profession, one naturally follows the other.

Quote :

It was one of the bad moments in GE. And did not fit the characters in the movie, suddenly she is an expert on James Bond the man that keeps rescueing her. I am not sure when that happened.

It's just an observation. She's not writing a biography.

Louis Armstrong wrote:

So he's cold because it keeps him sane, more than it keeps him 'alive'...

Isn't that splitting hairs a bit? If it keeps him sane it also keeps him alive, in the sense of a life that's worth living and not a living hell.

Louis Armstrong wrote:

Hopelessly melodramatic.

Yep.

That said, Fleming did indulge in his share of melodrama, so it's not un-Flemingian, per se. But I still don't think the scene is much good; it lays the drama all a bit thick.

Pros: Colour, cinematography, score (though only when listened to outside of the scene, in which instance it's absolutely lovely).

Cons: Predictable, obvious and lazily short "psychological evaluation" dialogue which could have been (and sounds like it actually was) written by a five year old, the scene functioning as little more than a lazy-assed way to finally get "Bond" and Natalya in bed together, the score sounding over-the-top for the scene in question in much the same way Arnold's Paris and Bond later was in TND, Brosnan looking and sounding like he's just wandered in from an American soap opera and the likelihood that this scene is more likely a glimpse of what a "dark, srs" Remington Steele reboot would be like rather than it having anything to do with James Bond, a character I don't see anywhere in this scene. The whole thing is just as lazy, obvious and embarrassing a piece of fanboy service as the equally uninspired nods to Q and Moneypenny from Trevelyan. Like much of the film, it comes across as the writing of some guy who's just watched three or four Bond flicks (and probably none of them directed by Terence Young, at that) rather than the work of someone who's actually got something good or fresh to bring to the table. It's also the red light scene which alerted the entire world that James Bond films can't be emotional in a convincing way at the hands of the new regime. If only they'd paid attention to that warning.

Nicely scored, but it's still the kind of melodrama I think the series could do without. The bloke was wasting legions of soldiers and joyriding in a tank, what, ten minutes before this scene? How am I supposed to take him seriously when he starts spouting dialogue from The Bold & The Beautiful? I don't mind scenes where Bond is introspective - it happened a fair bit in the novels - but the soap operatic stuff wth Natalya just didn't work for me.

Oh, and PB desperately needed a trip to barber. Natalya was lucky not to get pummeled in the face by Brosnan's gyrating mop of hair.

I like the score and the photography, but it's still the most cringeworthy moment in GoldenEye for me. Brosnan's pouting doesn't help.

Would've been better with Dalton *ahem*

lalala2004 wrote:

Would've been better with Dalton *ahem*

I agree with this. Dalton was always good in Bond's pensive, contemplative moments.

lalala2004 wrote:

Would've been better with Dalton *ahem*

ITA. Like most of GE, the ghost of Dalton's Bond haunts this scene for me. It seems more like something his Bond would say. Still, Miss Scorupco is lovely and it's far better than the melodrama in TWINE.

Wrong eye, admin!

Always been a big fan of the seen - the setting, the introspective brooding Bond, the music and of course Natalya. Some comments on the previous page I strongly disagree with. The "how can you be so cold" / "it's what keeps me alive" is perfectly in line with Bond. It's that emotional detachment that doesn't put himself or his loved ones in danger, otherwise what happened to Vesper, Tracy and Paris happens.

GeneralGogol wrote:

lalala2004 wrote:

Would've been better with Dalton *ahem*

I agree with this. Dalton was always good in Bond's pensive, contemplative moments.

I agree with this too. This kind of scene is perfectly suited for the Bond that we saw in Dalton. Dalton was so much more serious in his role than Connery or Moore or Lazenby or Brosnan were. Dalton was very gritty and dramatic, and he had the acting skill to pull it off.

When I see Brosnan getting too introspective like that, it kind of just feels like hes pulling BS that he thinks will get him laid.