Your thoughts on the Zorin Miners Massacre in AVTAK?

The Moonraker scene where Drax's dogs pursue, catch (and presumably devour) Corinne is pretty damn dark in tone. Especially for what otherwise is a pretty 'fluffy' Bond flick.

Okay a lot of people have said that this Zorin massacre is pretty dark, but is it any worse than when Auric Goldfinger did the same thing, when he gassed all his loyal men to death with nerve gas?

The difference is in the execution (no pun intended).

In my opinion, a villain should display their villainy, and Walken's massacre does a perfect job at doing that.

Goldfinger gasses mobsters (i.e. violent criminals) to death, whereas Zorin guns down innocent employees who have no idea of his wider intentions. I'd say that makes it 'worse'.

But how do we know they have no idea of wider intentions? Didn't they see him lower the bomb looking device?

Been a while since I watched ATVAK, but I believe it's mentioned by their superior before he gets killed.

Oh okay, I thought the only thing that was said by the superior was "Those men are loyal too you!", which implied to me that they knew of Zorin's plans, as oppose to just basic loyalty that a normal miner might have if they thought they were mining underground.

I guess it's just a miner detail.

Good one :).

So do you think that Zorin's act of murders was still more brutal though compared to Goldfingers then, if the people knew what they were a part of?

It was the staging, editing and reveal of Zorin as a complete psychotic in actions as well as plotting. The same can be said for his cold blooded unnecessary murder of Howe in the City Hall scene.
This marked a departure and was more in line with the darkening action film scene of the time as opposed to the more traditional Bond villain who would order it done by henchman, commit violence offscreen or the killings themselves would be elegant, clean and quick. For example the dispatch of Quist in TB.

Think I mentioned it in this thread already but John Glen has said that the Bonds were competing with the likes of Arnie and Sly in the 80s, hence a conscious 'upping' of the violence. Indeed, in Moore's last 3 films and Dalton's 2 wounding is seen to draw blood for the first time in a while in the series.

Yep. Much as OP was competing with Indy. In fact there is even an upping of violence in OP such as the third eye on Orlov's guard, the knifing of 009 etc despite the comic overtones.

If you really wanna see what John Glen would have done without the constraints of an EON Bond film, I direct you to THE POINT MEN. It's actually terrible, but it displays all of his directorial instincts and impulses we saw in his 80s Bond films, but on steroids. A lot Bond film vets like Alec Mills were brought on board, and even Maryam d'Abo has a part.





I think EON was right to let go of him after LTK. Honestly, I would have let go of him after AVTAK. Dalton deserved a real director for his films, not a technician hack.

Bloody hell. That looks like a Golan-Globus film taking itself too seriously.

Yes, I seem to remember renting that once. When over-the-counter movie rental was still a thing.

MP's assessment is pretty spot-on.

CJB wrote:

Bloody hell. That looks like a Golan-Globus film taking itself too seriously.

And to be brutally honest, LTK was already coming close to that with how utterly cheap it looked.

Alec Mills may be my least favorite DP of the Bond films. Compared to how contemporary films looked in the late 80s, Dalton's duology always looked about a decade older or more than they should have.

I always thought his sharper photography was a nice change after the more diffused look of Alan Hume. I think what hurt the look more was the slashing of budgets and being stuck to the ailing MGM/UA. Lamont's sets also aren't as immediately striking as you'd think but upon closer reflection are rather intricate.
That said all the 80's films look much better on film than video and if given proper 4K transfers would look FAR better.

It's interesting how none of the series directors are taken seriously or ever did a whole lot outside of their Bonds aside from Young doing WAIT UNTIL DARK, Gilbert making some around his Bonds, Hamilton making a few other notables and nearly doing SUPERMAN and Hunt making some modest films like SHOUT AT THE DEVIL. Then they all either trailed off or got stuck in some clunkers like Young on INCHON or the few things Glen did post-Bond.

Campbell's doing alright outside Bond. From Zorro, the Foreigner, Edge of Darkness... If he ever gets Hemingway's Across The River And Into The Trees up, that might become his masterpiece (outside his first Bond and Zorro).

Given the subject matter in that I think financiers/studios/producers got cold feet in the #MeToo era, which is a shame because it's a brilliant book with a very much consensual relationship, however I'm sure the SJWs will (wrongly) accuse it of being tyrannically patriarchal.

Good lord, you can't make classic literature into a proper film adaptation in 2019! Have you gone mad? It must have 'splosions, market shares or trending topics!!

I still need to see Legend of Zorro despite the poor reviews. I thought many felt his best was still the Edge of Darkness miniseries. Admittedly I still need to see that quite badly but I did kind of enjoy the 2010 remake much as I liked things in The Foreigner.

Campbell's such a hit and miss. GREEN LANTERN was the last movie I saw of his and it's such a limp film from start to finish that it goes to show he's really only as good as the material he's worked with.

I was really surprised by how awful THE LEGEND OF ZORRO turned out at the time, but it wasn't until later on after THE ISLAND, TRANSFORMERS 1 & 2, STAR TREK 09, COWBOYS & ALIENS, and STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS, and THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 2 that we could all look back and see the real culprit: Orci & Kurtzman. They may be the biggest screenwriting hacks to come out of Hollywood in history. Orci being the worst of the two, and thank goodness he had his meltdown and has no longer been working since 2014.

The Legend of Zorro, from memory, was popcorn nonsense, but it was fun. I wouldn't go out in a hurry to watch it again, but Bandaras and Zeta Jones make it something not totally a waste of time. The Mask of Zorro was great, though.

HGTB wrote:

Good lord, you can't make classic literature into a proper film adaptation in 2019! Have you gone mad? It must have 'splosions, market shares or trending topics!!

I know.... I should know better. It's just a huge shame.

Mask is pretty good as the third best Zorro film and fourth best adaptation overall.

FYI, the 1920 and 1940 versions of Mark of Zorro are the two better films and masterpieces, but the definitive Zorro is the Disney two season series which is the best thing Walt ever did.

Haven't been able to check out the earlier versions here in Oz unfortunately.

If you find them definitely give them a shot.

The Tyrone Power 1940 version is on DVD from Fox and should be readily available I think. It went out on Blu-ray in Spain and here finally via Kino. It takes heavy inspiration from Adventures of Robin Hood but is an absolute classic with arguably the best sword fight ever filmed.
The 1920 film of course is public domain and has thousands of releases. You should be able to view something easily online, but finding a decent version with a good score can be hard. Not only did this start the run of Douglas Fairbanks adventure films but is in many ways the first superhero film AND the first action film. Its importance is staggering.

Yeah I'd rather watch official releases of the films. I really dislike watching movies online; it's not how the film makers intended.