Portrayal of Moneypenny throughout the decades

Kath wrote:

Bond has only one equal and that is his wife.

Tracy is a suicidal Sylvia Plath-style headcase. I realise mental illness is the new black, but come on - you'll be saying Eva Green is a great actress next.

I should leave you all to remember your impression that DaltonBond sucked Della Leiter's face while claiming that he had the right as best man. If I point out that Della tipsily kissed him, while claiming that that was her right as the bride, will you dismiss that detail as sexist writing on the part of Maibaum and Wilson?

Have you never been to a wedding where the bride is so emotional that she kisses everybody? Could you tell that Bond was uncomfortable at this sort of gathering and was only there because he owed it to his dearest friend?

As for Moneypenny, Bond knows she's the one woman he should never touch, as he regards M as a father (and occasionally mother) figure. If she's going to flirt with him anyway, perhaps he feels that she should share in the punishment by flirting back, with no intention of making good on his innuendoes (yes, he tries for her in Skyfall, but she wasn't M's PA yet - in SPECTRE you can already see how that dynamic has reverted).

Erica Ambler wrote:

Kath wrote:

Bond has only one equal and that is his wife.

Tracy is a suicidal Sylvia Plath-style headcase. I realise mental illness is the new black, but come on - you'll be saying Eva Green is a great actress next.

Look at what Tracy suffers from. It's exactly the same what ails Bond. They are equals. She's his mirror. They're both broken. Tired of life, too many lovers, too many extravagances. Nothing can impress them anymore.
And I assume you know perfectly well that I have said that Eva Green is a great actress.

AMC Hornet wrote:

I should leave you all to remember your impression that DaltonBond sucked Della Leiter's face while claiming that he had the right as best man. If I point out that Della tipsily kissed him, while claiming that that was her right as the bride, will you dismiss that detail as sexist writing on the part of Maibaum and Wilson?

Have you never been to a wedding where the bride is so emotional that she kisses everybody? Could you tell that Bond was uncomfortable at this sort of gathering and was only there because he owed it to his dearest friend?

As for Moneypenny, Bond knows she's the one woman he should never touch, as he regards M as a father (and occasionally mother) figure. If she's going to flirt with him anyway, perhaps he feels that she should share in the punishment by flirting back, with no intention of making good on his innuendoes (yes, he tries for her in Skyfall, but she wasn't M's PA yet - in SPECTRE you can already see how that dynamic has reverted).

No, I would not dismiss that as sexist. As far as I remember, they pretty much kiss each other. It just seems a bit overdone to me as a token of friendship (what I suppose it is meant to be). But you are perfectly right. Probably she is just overjoyed. Why do you think that Bond is unhappy at the wedding? I do not say that he isn't, I am just wondering what makes you think so. I'd say it's the memory of Tracy which clearly returns when Della suggests he might marry soon, too (which is ridiculous. The Dalton Bond is too young to have been the very same Bond who buried Tracy).

That's a very interesting point about Moneypenny. I totally agree.

Kath wrote:

Why do you think that Bond is unhappy at the wedding? I do not say that he isn't, I am just wondering what makes you think so.

I've suggested before that John Gardner modeled Never Send Flowers' David Dragonpol on Timothy Dalton. For me, describing Dragonpol as 'the Man With the Glass Head' is the giveaway. Dalton can convey so much with just a glance or a sigh. Plus, he said at the time that he'd gone back through the Fleming canon to get a sense of the character.

Bond is not the sort of man to enjoy such boisterous, emotional occasions. Even if John Glen had instructed Dalton to 'lighten up' (as Guy Hamilton instructed Roger Moore and Christopher Lee to do), I don't think Dalton saw it as being in Bond's nature.

Perhaps I'm just projecting, but it seemed like Bond was much more comfortable in private conference with Felix than at any other point in the wedding scenes. And yes, perhaps it's because the last wedding he attended - where he was a guest of honour - didn't end so well. And yes, Felix says "He was married once - but that was a long time ago", but in screen-chronology time that doesn't have to mean twenty years (especially if you don't consider -as I don't - Dalton's Bond to be the same character who went into space or tackled Zorin and May Day).

Kath wrote:

Look at what Tracy suffers from. It's exactly the same what ails Bond. They are equals. She's his mirror. They're both broken. Tired of life, too many lovers, too many extravagances. Nothing can impress them anymore.

Fair point, but Bond hasn't tried to drown himself (maybe I should've compared Tracy to Virginia Woolf not Plath.)

Kath wrote:

And I assume you know perfectly well that I have said that Eva Green is a great actress.

AMC Hornet wrote:

I should leave you all to remember your impression that DaltonBond sucked Della Leiter's face while claiming that he had the right as best man. If I point out that Della tipsily kissed him, while claiming that that was her right as the bride, will you dismiss that detail as sexist writing on the part of Maibaum and Wilson?

Dunno about sexist, but always thought it was bit odd. Almost like they couldn't show another bloke getting more female attention than Bond.

If the day had turned out a little rosier a ménage à trois would've been on the cards.

Eva Green super-naturalistic acting style is the kind that will yield strong reactions in either direction. Either you love it or you loathe it.
I kind of enjoyed it myself, but mostly in "Penny Dreadful", which was the kind of show which needed that kind of "out there" performance.

Eva Green is great-but like many needs great material to work with and rarely gets it-just as Brosnan does or how Nicholas Cage needs an actual sane agent.

Bond is clearly trying to put on face at the wedding in LTK as he is trying to be a proper best man though totally out of his element. In fact the whole scene is out of place for a Bond film just to be slightly grating enough to cue in the audience that this is really out of place.
"I'll do anything for a woman with a knife..."
God I miss him terribly...pure Bond in one glance or throwaway line than anything the thug character has ever done....

Tracy is less of a psychological case than it would seem on the surface I think. It's a complex relationship that deviates slightly between film and novel.

I do think I prefer Bond and Penny as never having consummated their relationship as it does give it that sort of edge it always has had either that they were the ones that got away or the roads not taken etc.

AMC Hornet wrote:

I've suggested before that John Gardner modeled Never Send Flowers' David Dragonpol on Timothy Dalton. For me, describing Dragonpol as 'the Man With the Glass Head' is the giveaway. Dalton can convey so much with just a glance or a sigh. Plus, he said at the time that he'd gone back through the Fleming canon to get a sense of the character.

Bond is not the sort of man to enjoy such boisterous, emotional occasions. Even if John Glen had instructed Dalton to 'lighten up' (as Guy Hamilton instructed Roger Moore and Christopher Lee to do), I don't think Dalton saw it as being in Bond's nature.

Perhaps I'm just projecting, but it seemed like Bond was much more comfortable in private conference with Felix than at any other point in the wedding scenes. And yes, perhaps it's because the last wedding he attended - where he was a guest of honour - didn't end so well. And yes, Felix says "He was married once - but that was a long timer ago", but in screen-chronology time that doesn't have to mean twenty years (especially if you don't consider -as I don't - Dalton's Bond to be the same character who went into space or tackled Zorin and May Day).

Dalton is the best Bond ever, totally agreed! Exactly, he wouldn't sell out Fleming's novels for a blockbuster. That's one of the main reasons why he is the best Bond; he wanted to be Bond and he was ready to defend Fleming's work. That's a form of loyalty and truthfulness which is very rare: to jeopardize a career to protect the work of a dead author who can hardly "reward" you. Dalton is the only Bond who has ever been an idealist; so, to me it comes quite naturally that he is the best Bond.

I had a feeling that Bond felt as much at home with Della as he did with Felix. I mean, Felix is his one and true best friend; so it made sense to me that Bond would be friends with Della as well. That is, of course, guesswork, because the novel-Felix never had a wife; but still, it all made sense to me. It looks like a reasonable continuation of the Bond / Leiter relationship. Bond would try very hard to get along with Della if Felix loved her - just because he is his best friend. But probably now I'm projecting. But I agree that he didn't feel comfortable at the rest of the wedding.

That's why I find this one remark so ridiculous. I argue there is hardly someone out there who buys into that pretended chronology. If it is said that Bond was married a long time ago, there will be hardly an alternative to a crying Lazenby and Satchmo's  "We have all the time in the world" in your head.

Erica Ambler wrote:

Fair point, but Bond hasn't tried to drown himself (maybe I should've compared Tracy to Virginia Woolf not Plath)

Woolf instead of Plath? Why that? Wasn't Woolf "stronger"?
Yeah, but Bond needs his deadly assignments to be happy. Otherwise he'll drop the coat on the floor (This leads me to: Why are you all ignoring the ongoing short-story discussion?). Bond waits for someone else to drown him. At least when he has been at his desk for too long.  

CJB wrote:

If the day had turned out a little rosier a ménage à trois would've been on the cards.

Gosh. Now I'll never get that image out of my head of a naked Bond and a naked Leiter in one bed...Do you really think they would do that? I love their bromance; so I somehow don't picture them naked in the same bed. Which they would have to do if they decided in favour of a threesome.

Salomé wrote:

Eva Green super-naturalistic acting style is the kind that will yield strong reactions in either direction. Either you love it or you loathe it. I kind of enjoyed it myself, but mostly in "Penny Dreadful", which was the kind of show which needed that kind of "out there" performance.

Yes, I was referring to Penny Dreadful when I wrote it!
Yet, I always wonder if it's really her who gets that sounds out of her throat or if they were created artificially. I love the otherwordliness of her performance, so I am surprised to read the exact opposite.  

hegottheboot wrote:

"I'll do anything for a woman with a knife..."
God I miss him terribly...pure Bond in one glance or throwaway line than anything the thug character has ever done....Tracy is less of a psychological case than it would seem on the surface I think. It's a complex relationship that deviates slightly between film and novel.

I'd say Penny Dreadful helps. "I knew you were too mean to die" is one of my favourite lines in there. They have given him a solid character. Someone with a strong, yet complex and complicated relationship with Eva Green's character...I am planning to start a thread for that series; but somehow I don't get around to it in those days...I will try. Promise. Too much Bondian personnel involved to ignore it in here.

Yes, I agree. But I am unable to see the differences between the novel-Tracy and the film-Tracy. Could you please elaborate on that?

Kath wrote:

Erica Ambler wrote:

Fair point, but Bond hasn't tried to drown himself (maybe I should've compared Tracy to Virginia Woolf not Plath)

Woolf instead of Plath? Why that?

Because Woolf drowned herself.

Erica Ambler wrote:

Kath wrote:

Erica Ambler wrote:

Fair point, but Bond hasn't tried to drown himself (maybe I should've compared Tracy to Virginia Woolf not Plath)

Woolf instead of Plath? Why that?

Because Woolf drowned herself.

I see. This is about her biography and not her works.

Kath wrote:

Erica Ambler wrote:

Kath wrote:

Erica Ambler wrote:

Fair point, but Bond hasn't tried to drown himself (maybe I should've compared Tracy to Virginia Woolf not Plath)

Woolf instead of Plath? Why that?

Because Woolf drowned herself.

I see. This is about her biography and not her works.

About suicidal women, real and imaginary.

Erica Ambler wrote:

Kath wrote:

Erica Ambler wrote:

Kath wrote:

Erica Ambler wrote:

Fair point, but Bond hasn't tried to drown himself (maybe I should've compared Tracy to Virginia Woolf not Plath)

Woolf instead of Plath? Why that?

Because Woolf drowned herself.

I see. This is about her biography and not her works.

About suicidal women, real and imaginary.

That's why I found it difficult to choose between Plath and Woolf.

Kath wrote:

That's why I found it difficult to choose between Plath and Woolf.

Well, it's probably not worth labouring, but Woolf and the Contessa both chose suicide by drowning. Whereas - to echo our other exchange - Plath stuck her head in a gas oven.

Kath wrote:

Yes, I agree. But I am unable to see the differences between the novel-Tracy and the film-Tracy. Could you please elaborate on that?

Novel Tracy comes across as more remote and perhaps more psychologically scarred but that may be because the film has less time for her as a character and streamlines certain events in the novel. Of course film Tracy doesn't crack at points and say things like "you're a lousy goddamm lover."

So I guess it's more of having some different personality traits overall.

How odd that line would sound in Rigg's plummy English accent.

Erica Ambler wrote:

Kath wrote:

That's why I found it difficult to choose between Plath and Woolf.

Well, it's probably not worth labouring, but Woolf and the Contessa both chose suicide by drowning. Whereas - to echo our other exchange - Plath stuck her head in a gas oven.

So we simply decide for Plath' work and Woolf's biography? Agreed?

hegottheboot wrote:

Novel Tracy comes across as more remote and perhaps more psychologically scarred but that may be because the film has less time for her as a character and streamlines certain events in the novel. Of course film Tracy doesn't crack at points and say things like "you're a lousy goddamm lover." So I guess it's more of having some different personality traits overall.

Yes, agreed. Thanks!

Erica Ambler wrote:

The Conversation claims to combine academic rigour with journalistic flair

"proverbial boudoir skills"
"uneasily contained between risqué flirtation and out-and-out sexist behaviour"
"Moneypenny is a paradigm of changing attitudes towards sexual harassment and of its complex intersections with female desire"

Santa wrote:

Erica Ambler wrote:

The Conversation claims to combine academic rigour with journalistic flair

"proverbial boudoir skills"
"uneasily contained between risqué flirtation and out-and-out sexist behaviour"
"Moneypenny is a paradigm of changing attitudes towards sexual harassment and of its complex intersections with female desire"

Grissom to Saunders on CSI: "Are you paid by the word?"