The F1 thread.

I'm ok with Bernie as long as he keeps the sport financially healthy. I don't even care if tickets are high priced. Each race is an event. Realistically, fans will attend only their home race anyway, so if they want to go that bad, they can save-up. There is plenty of lower-level motorsport to watch at affordable prices, but F1 is the the elite show. I love going to the Toronto Indy. I see it every year. I even go to Michigan to watch Nascar, and Indy Car when it raced there, and I've been to Montreal to watch Indy Car on the F1 track, but nothing beats F1. Indy Car since the split, in 1996 has been struggling financially. The sport is plagued with underfinanced teams and empty grandstands. The split destroyed what was a great big-money racing series, and at least in North America, on a par with F1. Now F1 is the only big-time open-wheel circuit. Indy Car has a lot of work to do to reclaim it former lustre.

I don't like crashes though, even if they are spectacular to see when they happen, as I'm perfectly happy watching cars race on the edge and hold it together. Toronto has some sweeping combination turns heading into the main start-finish staight. Watching the top drivers navigate at speed is quite exciting. I can only imagine what watching the Ferrari and McLaren machines taking high speed corners must be like. Breathtaking I'm sure.

I think that in some cases race tickets are outrageously tickets. I remember a few weeks ago when I was watching the Singaporian Grand Prix it was mentioned that only a quarter of Singapore's citizens can afford a seat. That's clearly not right. It's offensice to say at least.
F1 may be all about glamour and fancy cars and stuff, but it has to be politically correct. There are not rich people everywhere in the world. In Monaco yes, but in Hungary and in Belgium or England I don't believe that people have spare cash.
This week it was a sell out in India because tickets were 35 quid each for a three-day pass! Do you think that it'd be full if every ticket was like 200 pounds? I dont.

tiffanywint wrote:

I'm ok with Bernie as long as he keeps the sport financially healthy. I don't even care if tickets are high priced. Each race is an event. Realistically, fans will attend only their home race anyway, so if they want to go that bad, they can save-up.

easy for you to say, but comparitively far more difficult to achieve on an East European wage

apparently the "Hungarian" Grand Prix is mainly attended by Italian Ferrari supporters
someone has "rented" a poor Eastern European neighbour in order to set up a surrogate extra round for the Tifosi

I say boo!

I see Lewis Hamilton has been quoted as saying he would be happy to die behind the wheel
he might want to speak to Niki Lauda about that…

on the other hand Denny Hulme, New Zealand's only F1 champ, did manage to go out in a most satisfactory style
he was driving at Bathurst in Australia's premier saloon car race, coming down off the mountain and along Conrod straight, when his car slowed, trundled gently onto the grass verge before coming to a halt
the emergency staff rushed to the scene and they found him dead at the wheel, as if he'd just gone to sleep

Seve wrote:

tiffanywint wrote:

I'm ok with Bernie as long as he keeps the sport financially healthy. I don't even care if tickets are high priced. Each race is an event. Realistically, fans will attend only their home race anyway, so if they want to go that bad, they can save-up.

easy for you to say, but comparitively far more difficult to achieve on an East European wage

apparently the "Hungarian" Grand Prix is mainly attended by Italian Ferrari supporters
someone has "rented" a poor Eastern European neighbour in order to set up a surrogate extra round for the Tifosi

I say boo!

The free market should really set the ticket price. Hockey tickets in Toronto cost a fortune because there is huge demand. The same NHL product in Phoenix though is way cheap, due to much lesser demand. And even if a promoter were to make some F1 tickets more "affordable", that's nice, but its still a marketing ploy, designed to accomodate the broader business model. And that's fair. If business doesnt' work that way, then business goes out of business, people lose jobs, we have no races etc etc.

Sounds like Hungary needs to get its economy in order. How socialist is that place?

tiffanywint wrote:

The free market should really set the ticket price. Hockey tickets in Toronto cost a fortune because there is huge demand. The same NHL product in Phoenix though is way cheap, due to much lesser demand. And even if a promoter were to make some F1 tickets more "affordable", that's nice, but its still a marketing ploy, designed to accomodate the broader business model. And that's fair. If business doesnt' work that way, then business goes out of business, people lose jobs, we have no races etc etc.

Sounds like Hungary needs to get its economy in order. How socialist is that place?

how would you feel if all those hockey seats were occupied by Americans?

40 years of communist misrule takes alot of fixing...

Seve wrote:

tiffanywint wrote:

The free market should really set the ticket price. Hockey tickets in Toronto cost a fortune because there is huge demand. The same NHL product in Phoenix though is way cheap, due to much lesser demand. And even if a promoter were to make some F1 tickets more "affordable", that's nice, but its still a marketing ploy, designed to accomodate the broader business model. And that's fair. If business doesnt' work that way, then business goes out of business, people lose jobs, we have no races etc etc.

Sounds like Hungary needs to get its economy in order. How socialist is that place?

how would you feel if all those hockey seats were occupied by Americans?

40 years of communist misrule takes alot of fixing...

Realistically they wouldn't be. The demand is here, not there. Getting hockey tickets cheap in the States is easy. If Hungary can get its free market going, then the people will have money and they can buy tickets. In the meantime. I guess the foreigners will have to bankroll the race. The Hungarian GP has been around for a heck of a long time. I can almost pronounce Hungaroring its been around so long. I looked it up, 1986, so the biz model, whatever it is, is working.

Hungary HAS a free market. You can even look it up on the net, you know.

Seve wrote:

how would you feel if all those hockey seats were occupied by Americans?
40 years of communist misrule takes alot of fixing...

tiffanywint wrote:

Realistically they wouldn't be.

but we are not talking "realistically" we are talking hypothetically,
so how would you feel if Toronto games were filled with foreigners, be they from America or Mars?
every year Hungarians are made to feel like second class citizens in their own country and they resent it

tiffanywint wrote:

If Hungary can get its free market going, then the people will have money and they can buy tickets. In the meantime. I guess the foreigners will have to bankroll the race. The Hungarian GP has been around for a heck of a long time. I can almost pronounce Hungaroring its been around so long. I looked it up, 1986, so the biz model, whatever it is, is working.

sometimes there are more things in heaven and earth, aka timmer, than are dreamt of in your business model…
sport is never purely business, though some would like to pretend it so
if you added up all the money made and spent in Formula One, I'm picking you would find an significant overall loss situation, with only a few people, like Bernie, making any money
the guys who run the Hungaritalian Grand Prix may also be among "the few"

IMO a Hungarian Grand Prix without Hungarians strikes me as just not right

As one of the criticisms levelled at the British Grand Prix was it was over-priced for the average fan and the facilities were poor (as well as the facilities for the teams), I find it very disappointing that the Hungarian Grand Prix is too expensive for Hungarian fans to attend.

I have heard it said, though, that it can be cheaper to see World Superbike in Assen than at Brands. Which isn't right either.

Kennon wrote:

Hungary HAS a free market. You can even look it up on the net, you know.

I said get it going. You know- like thriving, but thriving as always depends on how much money the government must suck out of the economy.

Seve wrote:

but we are not talking "realistically" we are talking hypothetically,
so how would you feel if Toronto games were filled with foreigners, be they from America or Mars?
every year Hungarians are made to feel like second class citizens in their own country and they resent it

Its a hypothetical non-sensical because we buy up all the tickets and Americans don't want them anyway, but if I must answer, I wouldn't care. Still comes down to supply and demand. Right now, I wouldn't mind a little less demand, then prices come down. I can buy NBA and MLB tickets in this burb at reasonable prices, because the demand is very modest, but hockey tickets are like gold. But Toronto isn't really a great sports town. Even though we have lots going on, every other team or event really has to work to sell tickets. The Indy is in real trouble and it used to be a happening event, until the split. Oddly enough, with re-unification, the revived Indy Car series is struggling worse than Champ Car was during the split with IRL. We were better off here with the split.

Seve wrote:

sometimes there are more things in heaven and earth, aka timmer, than are dreamt of in your business model…
sport is never purely business, though some would like to pretend it so
if you added up all the money made and spent in Formula One, I'm picking you would find an significant overall loss situation, with only a few people, like Bernie, making any money
the guys who run the Hungaritalian Grand Prix may also be among "the few"
IMO a Hungarian Grand Prix without Hungarians strikes me as just not right

Well I must continue to insist that every commercial sporting venture, needs a viable business model, but I do think also that if Hungarian Grand Prix is selling out and is financially strong, then it would only be sporting, not to mention good marketing and good community relations to set aside some tickets that were "affordably priced" for the local market to buy, but still the logistics are daunting. How do you ensure that the local market actually does the buying as opposed to regular bargain hunters? Check passports? I don't know. Maybe designate a block of tickets to some benevolent group and let them sell them to the right customers. Could work. Where there is a will there is way I guess.

But I do find this discussion odd from where I sit, because I can't relate. I've got a lot of experience working with various sports bodies and virtually all of them are killing themselves to sell tickets to ANYONE and find a business model that works. Too much demand is not a problem that comes up too often.

tiffanywint wrote:

Kennon wrote:

Hungary HAS a free market. You can even look it up on the net, you know.

I said get it going. You know- like thriving, but thriving as always depends on how much money the government must suck out of the economy.

Well, the track was rebuilt by the communists for the first F1 race in 1985 and got subsidies from the state ever since. You can mindlessly parrot about a free market as long as you like, the race at the Hungaroring isn't an example for your ideological makup. It's just as Seve said, a poor country bought for cheap to maximise the Ecclestone profits. There is no way that event could happen there economically profitable, simply because one single event per year is hardly able to rectify the running of an F1 type course. Hungary's taxpayers support Ecclestone while they can't afford the tickets themselves.

Kennon wrote:

tiffanywint wrote:

Kennon wrote:

Hungary HAS a free market. You can even look it up on the net, you know.

I said get it going. You know- like thriving, but thriving as always depends on how much money the government must suck out of the economy.

Well, the track was rebuilt by the communists for the first F1 race in 1985 and got subsidies from the state ever since. You can mindlessly parrot about a free market as long as you like, the race at the Hungaroring isn't an example for your ideological makup. It's just as Seve said, a poor country bought for cheap to maximise the Ecclestone profits. There is no way that event could happen there economically profitable, simply because one single event per year is hardly able to rectify the running of an F1 type course.

Well then you make the case for contined foreign patronage and F1 can just rent the country until a proper market economy can be established to drive some economic growth and prosperity -you know people with jobs and money that can buy tickets, unless you think a socialist system might put beans in the people's jeans, but that approach doesn't seem to work anywhere.

The F1 track in Montreal for a long time staged only one major event per year, the F1 race. Otherwise it just sat there, amusing roller bladers and cyclists. Recently a Nascar Nationwide Event has been added but so that's two event per year. One big one and one medium one.

No, I make a case to first take a look at the facts before babbling some stupidity out of blissful ignorance.

Kennon wrote:

No, I make a case to first take a look at the facts before babbling some stupidity out of blissful ignorance.

Does this translate or is that just crybaby language :roll:

tiffanywint wrote:

Kennon wrote:

No, I make a case to first take a look at the facts before babbling some stupidity out of blissful ignorance.

Does this translate or is that just crybaby language :roll:

Huh, translate? Thought you were fluent in English. Hey, maybe the free market can find you somebody to make a drawing for you. I'm not good at drawing, sorry.

Kennon wrote:

Hey, maybe the free market can find you somebody to make a drawing for you.

You have a real problem with the free market don't you, but economics clearly isn't your strong suit.Anyway this is an F1 thread, feel free to enlighten us with your views on McLaren, Red Bull, Williams, Ferrari, favourite drivers etc. I'm sure you might have something to contribute.

tiffanywint wrote:

Kennon wrote:

Hey, maybe the free market can find you somebody to make a drawing for you.

You have a real problem with the free market don't you, but economics clearly isn't your strong suit.

time gentlemen please!
:oops:

I like the free market as much as the next person
and the business model of North American team sports is very different to F1
but as far as Formula One goes, most modern Grandprix races are purely status symbols for various emerging nations who want to flex their new economic muscles and show off
they all only exist because they are heavily subsidised by their respective governments and the "trickle down economics of increased media exposure" arguments used to justify the expense are nothing more than window dressing IMO
Bernie (and the drivers) are the only ones really making any money
:suspect:

You could even argue then that F1 is a big bloated commercial enterprise bankrolled by government sponsored corporate welfare. We lost the Canadian Grand Prix for a year when Ecclestone swaggered in and demanded more government money. I can say my attitude at the time was very much, good riddance then, and I wasn't alone, but somehow the race was restored, the next year, with the prestige argument no doubt being used to wangle local concessions for the F1 poobahs. At least the racing is entertaining, even if the whole system seems to be one big elitist sports racket.

I think F1 is a perfect example of why government should stay away from bankrolling pro sports, which they generally do, but only because taxpayers generally revolt when they catch wind of government plotting to waste their hard earned money on sports or other entertainment ventures, which IMO should really sink or swim on their own economic merits. Sports takes more flack, and deservedly so, because of the stereotype of millionaire athletes.

tiffanywint wrote:

You could even argue then that F1 is a big bloated commercial enterprise bankrolled by government sponsored corporate welfare. We lost the Canadian Grand Prix for a year when Ecclestone swaggered in and demanded more government money. I can say my attitude at the time was very much, good riddance then, and I wasn't alone, but somehow the race was restored, the next year, with the prestige argument no doubt being used to wangle local concessions for the F1 poobahs. At least the racing is entertaining, even if the whole system seems to be one big elitist sports racket.

I think F1 is a perfect example of why government should stay away from bankrolling pro sports, which they generally do, but only because taxpayers generally revolt when they catch wind of government plotting to waste their hard earned money on sports or other entertainment ventures, which IMO should really sink or swim on their own economic merits.

here, here
although it's not just goverments who distort the operation of market forces in professional sport
for example, Roman Abramavichs purchase of Chelsea football club is an example of the free market operating as far as the "market for aquiring football clubs" goes
however, the way Abramovich operates the club is not, because he does not run it as a business, incommings do not exceed outgoings
the only "return" he will ever get on his investment is likely to be an intangible, sentimental one


we just hosted the world cup for rugby, and while it was a wonderful event, we have lost a big chunk of money doing it, which I for one don't believe was recouped by the trickle down of increased visitor numbers during the tournament, or will be by increased tourism in the coming year

the only people who made a profit were the IRB (the rugby equivalent of Bernie or FIFA or the IOC)

Seve wrote:

tiffanywint wrote:

You could even argue then that F1 is a big bloated commercial enterprise bankrolled by government sponsored corporate welfare. We lost the Canadian Grand Prix for a year when Ecclestone swaggered in and demanded more government money. I can say my attitude at the time was very much, good riddance then, and I wasn't alone, but somehow the race was restored, the next year, with the prestige argument no doubt being used to wangle local concessions for the F1 poobahs. At least the racing is entertaining, even if the whole system seems to be one big elitist sports racket.

I think F1 is a perfect example of why government should stay away from bankrolling pro sports, which they generally do, but only because taxpayers generally revolt when they catch wind of government plotting to waste their hard earned money on sports or other entertainment ventures, which IMO should really sink or swim on their own economic merits.

here, here

Do you mean 'hear, hear'? or perhaps 'there, there'?

Louis Armstrong wrote:

Seve wrote:

here, here

Do you mean 'hear, hear'? or perhaps 'there, there'?

where, where?
:geek:

tiffanywint wrote:

Its a hypothetical non-sensical because we buy up all the tickets and Americans don't want them anyway...

for a man who loves DAF you seem remarkably reluctant to exercise your imagination?
perhaps we should put the ice hockey analogy to one side and use the Canadian Grand Prix instead
or any annual sporting event purporting to be the national event of Canada, and only foreigners can afford to attend
while Canadians stand outside with their noses pressed up against the glass
apart from those lucky enough to be inside serving hot dogs and opening doors for the foreigners
:twisted:

tiffanywint wrote:

...but if I must answer, I wouldn't care. Still comes down to supply and demand…
But I do find this discussion odd from where I sit, because I can't relate. I've got a lot of experience working with various sports bodies and virtually all of them are killing themselves to sell tickets to ANYONE and find a business model that works. Too much demand is not a problem that comes up too often.

IMO it's not quite as simple as saying it's about supply and demand
there would be plenty of demand in Hungary, at a fair price relative to the earning power of Hungarians
instead, those running the event choose to supply the demand of Italy, where disposable income in higher
and presumably the cost of running a Grandprix in Hungary is also cheaper than Italy, whether due to cost of living or the availability of a government subsidy
I guess it's like the free market in prostitution on the Polish border with Germany, or Czech and Austria;- where men drive across the border to avail themselves of the cheaper price of sex in Eastern Europe
:oops:

tiffanywint wrote:

Well I must continue to insist that every commercial sporting venture, needs a viable business model,

I agree, but try telling that to Real Madrid or Chelsea or Manchester City
football clubs owned by rich men with big wallets who compete against clubs that don't, is "rich mans play thing" a legitimate "business model"
even in American sports, I imagine franchises like the Lakers and the Yankees probably spend more than they make in order to achieve their periods of domination
:bball:

tiffanywint wrote:

but I do think also that if Hungarian Grand Prix is selling out and is financially strong, then it would only be sporting, not to mention good marketing and good community relations to set aside some tickets that were "affordably priced" for the local market to buy, but still the logistics are daunting. How do you ensure that the local market actually does the buying as opposed to regular bargain hunters? Check passports? I don't know. Maybe designate a block of tickets to some benevolent group and let them sell them to the right customers. Could work. Where there is a will there is way I guess.

don't worry aka timmer, they are used to having to produce their identity papers in former Iron Curtain countries
setting up a temporary Hungoriaring "police state" over Grand Prix weekend would not be a problem for them, in fact they might get quite nostalgic about it
8)
(apologies to all you non sports-economics fans out there!)

tiffanywint wrote:

The F1 track in Montreal for a long time staged only one major event per year, the F1 race. Otherwise it just sat there, amusing roller bladers and cyclists. Recently a Nascar Nationwide Event has been added but so that's two event per year. One big one and one medium one.

I walked around it once, amongst the scattered rotting carcasses of a bygone expo… like being on the set of some 70s Sci Fi movie starring Charlton Heston

anyhoo, I must say I'm getting sick of Vettel and Red Bull winning every week, time to change the rules again!!!
but not nearly as sick as I am of Sebastian Loebs interminable domination of world rallying
:sleep:

Sev, your assessment of the Hungarian GP is quite enligtening. The whole sport it seems, is an elitist racket. Even here, in a prosperous country like Canada, the F1 poobahs put guns to our head, to keep the race. Interesting the F1 Gods can't gain any traction in the States though. I don't think Bernie commands a whole lot of influence, especially after that farce of an F1 race that was staged at Indy a few years ago - you know the one with a handful of cars.

About your hypothetical. No I would not care who was buying tickets for the sporting event. I really wouldn't, but the hypothetical is so far removed from any reality of this market or potential reality, so it's really not a good analogy, even a hypothetical one.

As for sports business models. Most of them are pretty straight forward - make money.

But at the billion dollar franchise/event level such as NFL football or F1 racing, we are often talking playthings of the ultra rich. They can operate at a loss or whatever floats their boat I guess. Here in Toronto, Rogers Communications, (the evil empire) telecom/cable,TV/radio/wireless,all-media and com-tech giant own the Blue Jays baseball and the Rogers Centre (former Skydome). So who knows what their business model is regarding the Jays. Its all part of the broader, grand corporate equation but as a stand-alone entity, the Jays are hurting. They struggle to fill half the stadium.

Basically I would consider any sports-event business-model that doesn't involve handouts from any level of government to be a viable business model. Mind you most of the events find a way to get their paws on government cash, claiming trickle down economic benefits. However the question that never seems to get addressed, is does the event actually need the government money. If not, the public gets the economic stimulus without handing over taxpayer money, but government loves being associated with high profile events. Politicians get to cut ribbons and make speeches and have a grand ole time, hob-knobbing with sports celebrities.

The Toronto International Film Festival for crying out loud, still gets money from the city of Toronto, which it doesn't need, as it basks in corporate sponsorshipand big revenues. Its a monstrous event. But the City throws taxpayer money at it, that could go to fix roads, because they want to be a part of it, not to mention schmooze with Brad Pitt and George Clooney. The City of course trumpets the economic benefits to the city, conveniently leaving out that we get those anyway, without having to make a contribution.

But all politicans are bascially corrupt, whether they intend to be or not. The job involves power and influence, and you have to exercise it somewhere, so if power corrupts, which it generally does, then all politicians wind up corrupted in some way, despite their best intentions. Many of course have no best intentions anyway.

Quote :

I walked around it once, amongst the scattered rotting carcasses of a bygone expo… like being on the set of some 70s Sci Fi movie starring Charlton Heston

You did that too? I did too. It took forever. I was exhausted. I tried to rent roller blades, but the teenager on duty insisted on communicating only in French, so I gave up.

The old Expo 67 has lost much of its lustre. The former French pavillion is a big gambling den now ( casino) no doubt pumping money into government coffers, so gov can in turn, fork it over to Bernie to keep their precious GP.

I really wouldn't cry if we lost it again. I'm much happier driving to Michigan to watch Nascar with the American hoi poloi than enduring the circus that is an F1 weekend in Montreal - not one of my favourite cities anyway.

another reason I think it's about time for a radical rule overhaul is that it's been along time now since I actually found an F1 car attractive to look at, the way the nose cones have looked from about 1994 onward is just unnatural and ugly to my eyes, with the nose sticking up and the wing hanging down below it

F1 car should be sexy, like the shark nose Ferrai 156 or John Player Special Lotus '72 and '79