Star Wars: The Original Trilogy

The White Tuxedo wrote:

saint mark wrote:

The White Tuxedo wrote:

saint mark wrote:

He did that if I remember correctly and then the fans were complaining about how basic they were

They were low-quality, non-anamorphic laderdisc rips from 1993. It's an insult to the fans.

It was the result of demanding fans that he should give them untouched youth sentiment, he did so.............Guess what they wanted him to spend money on something he did not feel was true to his artistic vision.

He gave what they wanted and still he couldn't win. They were an improvemnet over the video releases.

I've heard this before and it doesn't stand in my opinion. Lucasfilm has prided itself in being on the bleeding edge of home video quality and they treat the films that built Lucasfilm with such disrespect? It's not too much to ask for, or attacking George Lucas, to want the original, pre-special edition films, in a good quality presentation. It's not asking for the moon, it's just that I'd like to see the original films in the same quality that I could see virtually any other film released on DVD.

And that is your right, the demanding bit that is.

In his philosophy I can understand that he doesn't want to spend too much money on the original cuts of his films because in his idea they were allright but flawed.

I do understand the frustration of fanboys, people who should worry more about really important stuff, but find that I am at no moment interested in the originals. I prefer the visualy updated versions in dvd with better effects (which benefitted SW a lot). I liked the original ending of ROTJ with that ewok-song. ANd over that he got buckets of sh*te as well due to the Ewok-factor being a moneymaker. He has changed that and still the "fans"disagree.

If I ever take the step to Bluray I might buy the SW bluray set but seriously buy LOTR & ALien set way sooner.

I want to make something clear. I'm not a fanboy. I'm also not frothing at the mouth over this. It's simply frustrating that the original films are not available in a condition that is comparable to virtually every other film that is on DVD.

And they're not exclusively his films. He didn't direct EMPIRE or JEDI. He wasn't even present for the production of EMPIRE from what I understand. I think Lucas' attitude is selfish, and I don't think that mine is very demanding at all.

Let's call Lucas an artist. Any artist has to accept that when they release a book, or film, or painting, or piece of music, that they don't have the right to then go around and snatch up every copy of it after the fact.

And you say you have no interest in the originals. That's fine. I do. That doesn't make me a bad guy, or mean that I am demanding. All I want is a quality DVD or Blu-ray release. We get DVD's and Blu-rays all the time. How would this be different.

One more thing, about Lucas spending the money on the films. If he released them he'd make a killing. And not releasing them is frankly dickish.

The White Tuxedo wrote:

It's simply frustrating that the original films are not available in a condition that is comparable to virtually every other film that is on DVD.

That's because he doesn't want them to be. You must remember that Spielberg and Lucas hate their audience; they think we're violent, simpleton hillbillies in need of their correction. That's why Greedo now shoots first instead of Han Solo. That's why FBI agents in "E.T." carry walkie-talkies instead of guns.

I had no problem with some of the visual enhancements Lucas made to have the f/x show a better flow of continuity through the films; some actually improved the color palette. But some of the changes are just downright reprehensible: replacing Sebastian Shaw for Hayden Christiansen is just one example.

I've never, ever come across a director with more contempt for his fan base than George Lucas. Not only does he have no respect for them, but he digs in and makes things worse on purpose. He knew how much they hated his direction in I and II, but he insisted on directing 'Sith', which should have been, perhaps, the most important film in the series. It's just such a sad, sad indictment of what could have been the greatest film series ever if George's hubris and folly hadn't gotten in the way.

I've said before that it seems as if Lucas is intentionally trying to piss off the fanbase, but I'm inclined to believe that he may be simply somewhat deluded. And he's surrounded by unquestioning yes men because he long ago fired people with the guts to challenge him on something, like Gary Kurtz.

Fair enough, I would not want to make you out a terrible person because you want something from your youth that has been changed to something you do not like. I can actually sympatise, I find the changed versions more agreable that is all.

I consider Lucas an artist. He however is one of those artists that has the rights in his own hands and can do what he actually wants. He did somehow play the property game rather better than Hollywood actually likes. They would undoubtely have released the originals with a little improvements as they could have gotten away. However GL seems to control his own property. He is one smart operator/artist.

I would hope for all that are really interested that one they there will be a decent release of the original trilogy be available.

It's not about a youth thing for me. It's really about an interest in film. I look beyond effects, and indeed I like to see the effects and think of how they were done.

I'd be just as frustrated if I were stuck with a colourized version of CASABLANCA, instead of the original film that was created.

The White Tuxedo wrote:

It's not about a youth thing for me. It's really about an interest in film. I look beyond effects, and indeed I like to see the effects and think of how they were done.

I'd be just as frustrated if I were stuck with a colourized version of CASABLANCA, instead of the original film that was created.

But if he runs the risk of providing the originals in pristine condition and they outsell the much newer, altered versions on DVD and BLU-RAY, it totally undercuts and voids the central premise that the fans would prefer the films to look the way he's making them now in order to access the latest technology to make the films seem seamless.. It would rock his world, then destroy it. He can't allow that to happen.

Also, they're not "his" films. He may own a property of intellectual rights when it comes to these films, but the bottom line is that once the audience has seen the film they more or less own you; you made changes to the series based upon feedback you got from the audience. That didn't happen with Lucas because he doesn't care what the fans think.

We've got to stop Lucas as soon as possible. We cannot merely arrest him. He has many powerful friends and connections. We may have to kill him.....does this....discourage you?

Gravity's Silhouette wrote:

That's because he doesn't want them to be. You must remember that Spielberg and Lucas hate their audience; they think we're violent, simpleton hillbillies in need of their correction. That's why Greedo now shoots first instead of Han Solo. That's why FBI agents in "E.T." carry walkie-talkies instead of guns.

Spielberg re-released the original version of E.T. and stated that he regretted the softer, walkie-talkies-instead-of-guns re-release of E.T. Don't lump him in with Lucas on this one.

Gravity's Silhouette wrote:

But if he runs the risk of providing the originals in pristine condition and they outsell the much newer, altered versions on DVD and BLU-RAY, it totally undercuts and voids the central premise that the fans would prefer the films to look the way he's making them now in order to access the latest technology to make the films seem seamless.. It would rock his world, then destroy it. He can't allow that to happen.

Did you read the recent NYT interview with Lucas? He doesn't suffer under the delusion that fans don't want the originals. He just wants them to be the way *he* wants them, fans be damned. (And yes, he pretty much says exactly that.)

Harmsway wrote:

Did you read the recent NYT interview with Lucas? He doesn't suffer under the delusion that fans don't want the originals. He just wants them to be the way *he* wants them, fans be damned. (And yes, he pretty much says exactly that.)

I think I read some of that somewhere. Lucas also said that fans yell at him for whatever he does. It's just what he's been doing has been largely bad.

His opinion of film as being always and forever in the filmmaker's control is horseshit. You make a film with the time and resources that you have, and then it's released. Sometimes there will be a director's cut or something, but that's the rule. It's the rule with any kind of art.

Lucas sounds more and more like he's living Anakin Skywalker's quest to control everything. It's ironic in a way.

The White Tuxedo wrote:

His opinion of film as being always and forever in the filmmaker's control is horseshit. You make a film with the time and resources that you have, and then it's released. Sometimes there will be a director's cut or something, but that's the rule. It's the rule with any kind of art.

Just out of curiosity where is that rule written down?- And if it is an unwritten rule why has GL not been whistled back from not behaving?

He just might be in the unique situation as an artist that he can actually decide if he gives a damn. And apperently he doesn't care enough about the original product to want to spend any money on it.

Art has a habit to be creative and try to improve upon itself, or not.

Harmsway wrote:

He doesn't suffer under the delusion that fans don't want the originals. He just wants them to be the way *he* wants them, fans be damned.

Sounds like he's a fan himself - a fan of the fact he has control over this property loved by millions and doesn't have to listen to a thing any of them say. Power trip much?

saint mark wrote:

The White Tuxedo wrote:

His opinion of film as being always and forever in the filmmaker's control is horseshit. You make a film with the time and resources that you have, and then it's released. Sometimes there will be a director's cut or something, but that's the rule. It's the rule with any kind of art.

Just out of curiosity where is that rule written down?- And if it is an unwritten rule why has GL not been whistled back from not behaving?

He just might be in the unique situation as an artist that he can actually decide if he gives a damn. And apperently he doesn't care enough about the original product to want to spend any money on it.

Art has a habit to be creative and try to improve upon itself, or not.

It's not an official law. Again, I'm not asking for the moon. Just a good DVD release. That's not too much to ask for. Lucas is the one in the wrong here. You may not care either way about having the originals available, but I think Lucas is obligated by plain decency to release them. He owes it to the fans, and he owes it to the creative people who worked on those films.

Frankly I don't understand why you'd support Lucas in this (if you are indeed doing so) as what is being asked for is just a standard DVD/Blu-ray release. It doesn't matter if they "aren't his vision" of the films (apparently CGI musical numbers were his original vision), it's selfish of him to withhold the originals.

Shame Lucas didn't do a special 15-20 minute cut of 3D TPM containing just the podrace, the Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Darth Maul lightsabre fight and the climactic space battle.

Blunt Instrument wrote:

Shame Lucas didn't do a special 15-20 minute cut of 3D TPM containing just the podrace, the Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Darth Maul lightsabre fight and the climactic space battle.

I think there is a good movie, repeatedly interrupted and then buried under a succession of Jar Jar scene's...but 3d adds nothing and might even distract from the few decent moments.

The White Tuxedo wrote:

saint mark wrote:

The White Tuxedo wrote:

His opinion of film as being always and forever in the filmmaker's control is horseshit. You make a film with the time and resources that you have, and then it's released. Sometimes there will be a director's cut or something, but that's the rule. It's the rule with any kind of art.

Just out of curiosity where is that rule written down?- And if it is an unwritten rule why has GL not been whistled back from not behaving?

He just might be in the unique situation as an artist that he can actually decide if he gives a damn. And apperently he doesn't care enough about the original product to want to spend any money on it.

Art has a habit to be creative and try to improve upon itself, or not.

It's not an official law. Again, I'm not asking for the moon. Just a good DVD release. That's not too much to ask for. Lucas is the one in the wrong here. You may not care either way about having the originals available, but I think Lucas is obligated by plain decency to release them. He owes it to the fans, and he owes it to the creative people who worked on those films.

Frankly I don't understand why you'd support Lucas in this (if you are indeed doing so) as what is being asked for is just a standard DVD/Blu-ray release. It doesn't matter if they "aren't his vision" of the films (apparently CGI musical numbers were his original vision), it's selfish of him to withhold the originals.

I agree, he should release a decent copy on dvd/bluray.

I also agree that as an artist he has the right to do with his property if he owns it.

Except, strictly speaking, the STAR WARS films aren't just his work. He may regard them as his artistic property, but they were borne out of the contributions of many other artists and professionals. Hell, Lucas didn't direct or write EMPIRE or JEDI.

Kershner was actually pretty jazzed about the changes in EMPIRE when Lucas showed him, particularly the added stuff in Cloud City such as the corridors. Not sure how he felt about the ROTJ footage being spliced in though. Richard Marquand, who never had a say since 1987.

Blunt Instrument wrote:

Shame Lucas didn't do a special 15-20 minute cut of 3D TPM containing just the podrace, the Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Darth Maul lightsabre fight and the climactic space battle.

I always thought TPM would benefit from the INTERSTELLAR GEOGRAPHIC version, where you remove all the foreground and just have it as a travelogue. (it's still better than CLONES, but that's damning with very faint praise.)

trevanian wrote:

(it's still better than CLONES, but that's damning with very faint praise.)

Before watching the Prequel Trilogy in one go last Saturday I had always pretty much ranked them...

1. TPM
2. AOTC
3. ROTS

Now it's...

1. ROTS
2. TPM
3. AOTC

ROTS gets so much wrong... No, it actually gets everything wrong, but I enjoyed it as a colorful Saturday morning cartoon. At least it has some energy to it. I like what Ebert said of AOTC- that it's like watching Star Wars as covered by C-SPAN.

I was thinking of how I'd put together an alternate Prequel Trilogy, and I've begun putting together an extended synopsis (not quite an outline) of EPISODE I. It's untitled- THE CHOSEN ONE isn't to my liking. Episode II is tentatively titled KNIGHT OF THE REPUBLIC, and Episode III is titled FALL OF THE JEDI.

The timeline is roughly the same, with II and III taking place 22 years and 19 years before the original film respectively. I've pushed I from 32 years before to 27 years before, taking Anakin into his teen years before he's discovered.

This is what I have thus far. My idea for EpI is basically a leaner, meaner version of TPM. Naboo blockade, Darth Maul, Palpatine becoming chancellor. There would be a skyhopper (like Luke's old T-16 back home) race instead of podracing. But no Qui-Gon. He's out of the whole story. Kenobi's master will have either been Yoda himself or Dooku, whom I imagine as Liam Neeson- sorta Count Dooku from the Prequels by way of Ra's al Ghul from BATMAN BEGINS. And the Gungans do not exist.

KNIGHT OF THE REPUBLIC would maintain the build up to all-out war, with the Republic declaring war on the Seperatists late in the film and Skywalker as a new Jedi Knight leading the charge, and the romance between Anakin and Padme.

Well, anyway I've put this together so far...

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Jedi Knight Obi-Wan Kenobi is sent to Naboo to intercede in a Trade Federation blockade of the planet. After escaping assassination, Kenobi makes his way to Queen Amidala. Kenobi and the Queen become seperated from her bodyguards when the Trade Federation attacks and are forced to use a small freighter to escape. The freighter is damaged in the escape, but is saved by the onboard astromech droid, R2-D2.

Having a limited range ship and few options, Kenobi takes the Queen to Tatooine. Upon landing they become stranded and at the mercy of a corrupt spaceport owner named Watto as they have no money to repair their ship or take off.

One of Watto's slaves, a talented mechanic and pilot named Anakin Skywalker, comes to the attention of Kenobi. He is a quiet, mildly resentful teen. A genius at fixing things, Anakin quickly knows how to repair the ship, and even how to enhance it's range. Watto plans to keep the ship and banishes Kenobi and the Queen from his spaceport.

Wandering the rough streets of Mos Espa, Kenobi seeks out Skywalker, sensing great Force power in the angry young man. Kenobi and the Queen find the Skywalker home, and meet Anakin and his mother Shmi. Skywalker's powers are indeed great, but his abilities and emotions are not honed.

Kenobi is deeply impressed by Skywalker. The at first sullen teen is protective and loyal to his mother, and has dreams of leaving his slave life on Tatooine and becoming the captain of his own ship and master of his own fate. Skywalker doesn't fully understand his power, though he knows he's strong in the Force. Kenobi tells him of the Jedi Knights, and tells him that he'd like to take Anakin and his mother to Coruscant. Anakin also takes notice of Padme, whom he does not know is a Queen. He takes an instant liking to her.

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Then it hit me... I was planning to have Shmi be killed before Anakin's eyes much like Obi-Wan is killed as Luke watches. That saves us a trip back to Tatooine in Episode II. But as I said, then it hit me. The fucking Lars family. I have to find a way to fit them in. I have some ideas, just looking for something concrete. Perhaps Anakin hides Padme with them in EpII, but what relation would they have. Fellow slaves in EpI maybe? Or maybe keep Shmi alive until EpII and basically do what Lucas did. Meh. I'd lean toward them having been perhaps people he grew up knowing in Mos Espa, but not slaves. Just kind, regular people who helped out his mother. I'll think on it.

But I'm trying to cut all the fat out of TPM and keep the pace very snappy. I've got ideas for 3PO. I'd say he belongs to Watto. A gift from Jabba the Hutt. Anakin rebuilt him, or kept him in good shape and counted him as a friend or something.

Harmsway wrote:

Except, strictly speaking, the STAR WARS films aren't just his work. He may regard them as his artistic property, but they were borne out of the contributions of many other artists and professionals. Hell, Lucas didn't direct or write EMPIRE or JEDI.

True, but EMPIRE and JEDI were Lucasfilm productions on which Kershner and Marquand were basically hired guns subservient to Lucas' vision. Neither of them (I assume) would have had final cut. I mean, these are producers' films, just like the Bond films. If anyone "owns" them it's gotta be Lucas, right?

And if the boot had been on the other foot, in other words if Kershner or Marquand had somehow managed to make their own director's cuts of EMPIRE and JEDI long after the event and without Lucas' consent, I'm sure that STAR WARS fans would have furiously sided with Lucas. Well, okay, I'm sure that a lot of fans would have been very interested in seeing a "rogue" director's cut from Kershner or Marquand, but many would also have defended Lucas' versions of the films as the only true canonical versions.

Anyway, I'm very curious to see THE PHANTOM MENACE in 3D (and TITANIC, come to that).

The White Tuxedo wrote:

I've got ideas for 3PO. I'd say he belongs to Watto. A gift from Jabba the Hutt. Anakin rebuilt him, or kept him in good shape and counted him as a friend or something.

To avoid the beginning of the terrible fanwanking "coincidences" (Anakin built Threepio, Stormtroopers came about through Boba Fett, Jabba turns up, Chewbacca turns up, etc), I'd have just replaced Hugh Quarshie's rubbish Captain Panaka in Menace with Captain Antilles (referred to as previous owner of Threepio and Artoo in Star Wars), so you've then just got the droids there from the get-go with no need for any awkward explanations for their presence. They've always just been part of the bigger Rebel picture via their owners.

Also, looking back on the prequels, a must for me would be to have Anakin played by the same actor in all three films. When Anakin turns in the third film, we should be feeling the same way we'd have felt if Luke had turned in Jedi. Luke was established as the mirror of every young boy/man in the audience in Star Wars, and we carry that attachment through the next two films, something which was never possible with Anakin due to the overnight transition from innocent and enthusiastic young boy to petulant Twilight teen between films .

Also, Yoda should also have been seriously sidelined in these films, not to mention 100% puppetted. If he was of limited physical means at 890-900 years old in Empire and Jedi, then surely at roughly 860-870 in the prequels he should still be old and phsyically very limited. Yoda should have just finished his training of the Jedi-Knight-from-the-start Ben Kenobi in Menace, IMO. Kenobi finds Anakin and "takes it upon himself to train him as a Jedi", as opposed to that Kenobi quote from Jedi being rendered as bullshit by having Qui-Gon take on Anakin and then basically order Kenobi to do the same.

Lazenby. wrote:

The White Tuxedo wrote:

I've got ideas for 3PO. I'd say he belongs to Watto. A gift from Jabba the Hutt. Anakin rebuilt him, or kept him in good shape and counted him as a friend or something.

To avoid the beginning of the terrible fanwanking "coincidences" (Anakin built Threepio, Stormtroopers came about through Boba Fett, Jabba turns up, Chewbacca turns up, etc), I'd have just replaced Hugh Quarshie's rubbish Captain Panaka in Menace with Captain Antilles (referred to as previous owner of Threepio and Artoo in Star Wars), so you've then just got the droids there from the get-go with no need for any awkward explanations for their presence. They've always just been part of the bigger Rebel picture via their owners.

Also, looking back on the prequels, a must for me would be to have Anakin played by the same actor in all three films. When Anakin turns in the third film, we should be feeling the same way we'd have felt if Luke had turned in Jedi. Luke was established as the mirror of every young boy/man in the audience in Star Wars, and we carry that attachment through the next two films, something which was never possible with Anakin due to the overnight transition from innocent and enthusiastic young boy to petulant Twilight teen between films .

Also, Yoda should also have been seriously sidelined in these films, not to mention 100% puppetted. If he was of limited physical means at 890-900 years old in Empire and Jedi, then surely at roughly 860-870 in the prequels he should still be old and phsyically very limited. Yoda should have just finished his training of the Jedi-Knight-from-the-start Ben Kenobi in Menace, IMO. Kenobi finds Anakin and "takes it upon himself to train him as a Jedi", as opposed to that Kenobi quote from Jedi being rendered as bullshit by having Qui-Gon take on Anakin and then basically order Kenobi to do the same.

I kinda like the irony of 3PO having belonged to Jabba. I thought on it more, and came up with the story being that 3PO had been torn to bits or whatever because Jabba didn't like one of his translations, and I imagine 3PO protesting as Anakin briefly tells it to Kenobi by starting to say he's fluent in over six million forms of communication before being cut off mid sentence. Anyway, Anakin finds the pieces of 3PO and rebuilds him. I dunno. Or maybe he'll just be formerly owned by Jabba. He could always start out as the Queen's protocol droid anyway.

I'd have 3PO tag along and not stay behind on Tatooine. It's basically a situation of him either boarding a "dreadful starship" or staying behind to be blasted as our heroes are escaping Tatooine. I'd have 3PO be gold from the start BTW. I could see starting grey, but not the skeleton version.

And Kenobi needs to be the one who takes it on himself to train Anakin. I don't like what they did in TPM on that score. This needs to be Kenobi's failure to reign in Anakin.

My notion of this trilogy is that Anakin comes of age in one of the most turbulent times in galactic history. TPM presents a pretty peaceful galaxy, but I'd start it with the Republic close to the edge. Closer than the Jedi would like to realize. I'd have a Clone Army in Ep2 as opposed to a conscript one, and to be honest I'm not against Jango Fett being the clone template. Though I'd consider ditching Jango and simply having Boba Fett all the way. I'm not sure yet. I just don't like the idea of having Boba Fett be a kid. Totally F***S with how cool he's supposed to be. Have him be some elite Mandalorian warrior of about 25, having served as a template at the age of 20. Speed up the growth and stuff. Or it could be a different Mandalorian altogether.

Anyway, Anakin grows up in a time of extreme crisis. The Republic is under siege by the Seperatist movement. There have been minor attacks by the beginning of Ep2. And Kenobi discovers the Clone Army. The Jedi are steadfastly against using them, but are quickly voted down. Anakin supports using the army. Anakin does some heroic stuff in the film and is made a Jedi Knight in time for Palpatine to personally give him a star destroyer and a whole bunch of troops to do shit in the last act of the film.

I'd also try to get the Force ghost thing in. Maybe hinted at in Ep2, and explored in Ep3. I see it possibly tying into Anakin's fall. As for his fall, I envision this being the story of a flawed hero who can't defeat his own lust for power. He started as a slave and was always resentful and jealous. Once given access to more power, he can't stop getting more. Sorta like SCARFACE. Anakin is extremely powerful in the Force, but he never really develops a true loyalty to the Jedi way. There's just too much of a wave of shit going on in the galaxy for Kenobi to really reach him as much as he needs to, and Anakin gets swept up in the times.

Quote :

To avoid the beginning of the terrible fanwanking "coincidences" (Anakin built Threepio, Stormtroopers came about through Boba Fett, Jabba turns up, Chewbacca turns up, etc), I'd have just replaced Hugh Quarshie's rubbish Captain Panaka in Menace with Captain Antilles (referred to as previous owner of Threepio and Artoo in Star Wars), so you've then just got the droids there from the get-go with no need for any awkward explanations for their presence. They've always just been part of the bigger Rebel picture via their owners.

That would've been a smart and efficient way to go about it, and avoids that stupid 'memory wipe' thing that they came up with. Tux's Jabba idea is a little funny but a bit too cute for my taste.

Vesper wrote:

That would've been a smart and efficient way to go about it, and avoids that stupid 'memory wipe' thing that they came up with. Tux's Jabba idea is a little funny but a bit too cute for my taste.

That's why it's up in the air. It's about the limit of how cute I'd go with this. I thought of introducing 3PO on Tatooine partly to keep the Naboo section lean. I really want just Kenobi and the Queen, with R2 in tow. 3PO's a crowd. The idea is that they're trying to get to the Queen's really pretty chrome SR-71 in space, but it's disabled or destroyed before they get on. Much like in EMPIRE, where Han has to get Leia out in the Falcon, Kenobi and the Queen, seperated from the Queen's forces, have to find whatever ship they can.

I'm thinking of some smallish ship that needs an astromech droid to poke it's head out on top. Something between a fighter and a freighter. They can't take off, and there are battle droids closing in. Padme: I have a bad feeling about this. As the hanger crew is pinned down by enemy fire and astromech droids have been blasted to pieces, someone yells, "We've only got one more!" Cue R2 rolling through the carnage to the Star Wars theme to save the day, zapping a battle droid and causing it and the battle droid next to it to blast eachother.

3PO could be a part of the sequence. Hell, maybe he's carrying important information about the invasion, mirroring R2 doing the same in Ep4. He could be panicking as usual during the sequence, and perhaps even object to R2's presense when he sees him. "I've dealt with that little droid. He's difficult." "Wee wu wooo." But I'd rather not kick things off with both droids, and having already introduced 3PO would undermine the effect of R2 coming in out of nowhere to save the day.

Another option is introducing him on Coruscant.