[SPOILERS] The Dark Knight Rises (2.0)

1.0 Thread: https://bondandbeyond.forumotion.com/t95-spoilers-the-dark-knight-rises-10

The White Tuxedo wrote:

Yeah, I wanted to see the real weight of Bane's takeover. As for "Is Gotham worth saving?", the real problem for me is that I don't think these films ever presented a city that all that bad.

I don't think Nolan needs to answer that question. It should be left in the minds of the viewer, but I think he essentially does answer it by having Batman save them.

Gravity's Silhouette wrote:

tiffanywint wrote:

Thanks, that's good info. The story will be a lot easier to follow when I get around to seeing the film.

btw I'm with the Bruce Wayne is Batman, and only Bruce Wayne is Batman, crowd. It has only ever been thus, has it not?

This is probably the first film I can think of where spoilers would actually help a person follow the storyline better than not having them at all. The movie is complicated, but never let it be said that Nolan cheats the audience or is cheap with them. In an era where we all complain that so many movies don't have enough plot this film probably has too much plot. They could have done like Harry Potter or Twilight and broke the last film into two parts.

I will also say that basically every rumor I ever read about TDKR, except for one, was true. Marion Cottiliard was Talia Al-Ghul, Joseph Gordon-Levitt is Robin, LIam Neeson does return, Bruce Wayne assumes a new life in Europe, etc...which is why I continue to believe that Silva will be Blofeld in SKYFALL.

I'm also not entirely sure that Nolan is as done with the series as he says he is. The movie hands Warner Brothers a very accessible path to continue making these movies without having to start from scratch. Joseph Gordon-Levitt will do just fine as Batman or Nightwing, and I suspect Christian Bale could even be coaxed back into the series in a supporting role. There's plenty of storyline and villains to be mined from the series without having to start all over, which I would totally not support. There's continuity here with JGL; Nolan has essentially given him and WB the keys to the car, and I'd like to see what they can do with it.

I think the film sets up nicely for JGL as Robin and a potential re-union with Wayne as Batman. This is good.

Like the Captain Canuck avatar btw. The Captain would look real good on the big screen.

I thought the ending with Blake was BS. Having your cake and eating it too, essentially. The point Tux makes is right. Yeah, it's a little silly, but since Batman trained Robin since he was a kid in the comics there was a certain verisimilitude there. It's that weird Catch-22 that the more Nolan makes things more realistic, the less believeable they become.

Fairbairn-Sykes wrote:

I thought the ending with Blake was BS. Having your cake and eating it too, essentially. The point Tux makes is right. Yeah, it's a little silly, but since Batman trained Robin since he was a kid in the comics there was a certain verisimilitude there. It's that weird Catch-22 that the more Nolan makes things more realistic, the less believeable they become.

I must admit, I wouldn't have thought Nolan would have pulled the Robin-card out on us, but he did, and I like it. It does seem slightly fanboy-wonkish to do, but that's not a bad thing. If the actor playing Batman can be recast, why can't the character inhabiting the costume change?

On the topic of Blake, the one moment that pulled me out of the film is when RISES made it plain that Blake had deduced that Wayne was Batman. How? Because he can tell when someone has a practiced smile? Did he notice that Wayne became a recluse around the same time Batman disappeared and put two and two together? If so, what prevented everyone else in the city from figuring it out? Does Blake spend his down time chatting it up with that accountant Reese from TDK?

As much as I liked the rest of the movie, that question stuck with me for a bit.

Yeah, that aggravated me. It was out of the blue, sudden, and it seemed weird that Bruce made no effort to deny it.

Compare this to the third Robin, Tim Drake, who deduced that Dick Grayson was the original Robin because he had seen Grayson at the circus and Robin in action and saw the similarity in style, and from there deduced Wayne to be Batman.

This movie was almost as bad as AMAZING SPIDER-MAN for the hero just brazenly revealing his identity to all who would listen.

Fairbairn-Sykes wrote:

Yeah, that aggravated me. It was out of the blue, sudden, and it seemed weird that Bruce made no effort to deny it.

Compare this to the third Robin, Tim Drake, who deduced that Dick Grayson was the original Robin because he had seen Grayson at the circus and Robin in action and saw the similarity in style, and from there deduced Wayne to be Batman.

This movie was almost as bad as AMAZING SPIDER-MAN for the hero just brazenly revealing his identity to all who would listen.

What struck me as odd was that Gordon only figured it out by the end of the movie; I was under the assumption throughout the whole movie that Gordon knew but never let on that he did.

Also, where did John go that he picked up that duffel bag at the end (where we find out his real name is Robin) and why did he go there? Did anyone else think that Caine blubbering at the end was a bit too much?

It's never fully detailed, but there's probably a few things that he used to work it out:

1) Given his own background as an orphan, Blake probably realised that whoever was Batman probably came from a similar upbringing. Yes, it does venture into amateur psychology a little, but Blake could probably identify with him.

2) Batman has a lot of equipment, most of which would be very expensive to develop. Whoever makes his name as Batman would have to have access to a lot of resources. I believe Hugo Strange once worked out Batman's identity this way in the comics.

3) Batman's disappearance coincided with Bruce Wayne's retreat from public life. Wayne did maintain a bit of a profile after he stopped being Batman, but he may not have done the greatest job of it.

As Jim Gordon says in the film, Blake does not get to believe in coincidence once he is promoted to detective. Blake has probably always worked like that, and was able to put the pieces together. It's theorised that the Jim Gordon of the comics is able to work out who Batman is, but chooses not to. Similar thinking applies here.

Or in FOREVER, where Bruce shouts that he's Batman in a crowded circus tent and then proceeds to kick ass. Granted, it was a different time and everyone in the tent was apeshit with Two-Face's bomb about to explode. However you can't tell me that nobody saw that and wondered "Hey, I wonder if that rich guy is Batman. He certainly has the funds to do it."

Then again, everyone in the Shumacher films was braindead anyways.

Gravity's Silhouette wrote:

Also, where did John go that he picked up that duffel bag at the end (where we find out his real name is Robin) and why did he go there?

I'm pretty sure the duffel bag was a part of Bruce's estate and what was specifically willed to him. Bruce probably had the whole thing planned out to save the city, create Batman as a permanent symbol, and allow him to retire peacefully.

*Sees out-in-the-open spoilers, quicly skims to end of thread*.

Gee, thanks a lot.

Fairbairn-Sykes wrote:

I thought the ending with Blake was BS. Having your cake and eating it too, essentially. The point Tux makes is right. Yeah, it's a little silly, but since Batman trained Robin since he was a kid in the comics there was a certain verisimilitude there. It's that weird Catch-22 that the more Nolan makes things more realistic, the less believeable they become.

I liked that the point is made that Batman is more than just a man, he's a symbol. I just wish it were made a little more subtly than having Blake inherit the Batcave.

And I'm waiting for some kid to hit those piano keys or whatever it was and get a big surprise.

One must also ask where is Blake gonna get a vehicle? Is he gonna suit up and walk to the bus stop? What about a job on the side? He doesn't have Wayne's billions. Nor does he have Alfred, or really any support. So Wayne just giving him the Batcave is like throwing a baby into a pool and expecting it to do laps.

One thing that struck me in the movie was that Marion Cotillard looked slightly pregnant, and yet I know she wasn't. But I can't recall a scene with her in the movie where she wasn't covered up with something...a blanket, a bulky sweater or jacket, toting a gun over her stomach.

Miranda and Daggett also feel somewhat redundant. Maybe even Matthew Modine's character as well, but particularly Miranda, as basically Bane provides and serves up every function as villain that Miranda could. She comes across somewhat like Elektra King in the end, leaving her man behind to face the nuclear explosion without her.

Gravity's Silhouette wrote:

The White Tuxedo wrote:

Yeah, I wanted to see the real weight of Bane's takeover. As for "Is Gotham worth saving?", the real problem for me is that I don't think these films ever presented a city that all that bad.

I don't think Nolan needs to answer that question. It should be left in the minds of the viewer, but I think he essentially does answer it by having Batman save them.

I think he should have presented a more corrupt Gotham.

The mayor's a nice guy. Commisioner Loeb seems like an honest man. The district attornies are honest and good, until one of them turns into Two-Face.

Where is this corruption that warrants the genocide attempted by Ra's and Bane?

Δ

SKYFALL wasn't shown at my IMAX theater. They went straight to the feature. Probably to fit as many showtimes in as possible. I was looking forward to it, too.

I hate gimmicks like that. Show everyone the trailer FFS. I had to suffer through TOTAL RECALL and a Will Ferrell movie.

The White Tuxedo wrote:

One must also ask where is Blake gonna get a vehicle? Is he gonna suit up and walk to the bus stop? What about a job on the side? He doesn't have Wayne's billions. Nor does he have Alfred, or really any support. So Wayne just giving him the Batcave is like throwing a baby into a pool and expecting it to do laps.

One would assume that Batman had more than one of each vehicle (though maybe not the Bat). After all, he had more than one suit - one in the cave and one in the bunker. After all, Lucius Fox had several Tumblers in the Applied Sciences Division. After Bane's heist and the collapse of Wayne Enterprises, the extra equipment would have to go somewhere.

The White Tuxedo wrote:

One must also ask where is Blake gonna get a vehicle? Is he gonna suit up and walk to the bus stop? What about a job on the side? He doesn't have Wayne's billions. Nor does he have Alfred, or really any support. So Wayne just giving him the Batcave is like throwing a baby into a pool and expecting it to do laps.

FWIW, we don't know what other resources Wayne might have given Blake.

(And I didn't get to see the SKYFALL trailer either. My showing had no trailers.)

I didn't see the trailer, either ... but then, there isn't an IMAX theatre for 500km, so I wasn't expecting to see it.

Harmsway wrote:

The White Tuxedo wrote:

One must also ask where is Blake gonna get a vehicle? Is he gonna suit up and walk to the bus stop? What about a job on the side? He doesn't have Wayne's billions. Nor does he have Alfred, or really any support. So Wayne just giving him the Batcave is like throwing a baby into a pool and expecting it to do laps.

FWIW, we don't know what other resources Wayne might have given Blake.

The real concern I have is training. They showed Blake as a capable detective, and he certainly has courage and a good heart. But is he physically up to it?

I would like to see what happens with Blake, but not in a film. I think a special comics series would be interesting, but I doubt he's got as much mileage as a character as Wayne.

Anyone else think of this during the end?


"Somedays, you just can't get rid of a bomb!"

As for some positives.

-It's got much better dialogue than the last two.

-Even though the film feels a bit fractured in places I thought scenes played out SOOOOOOO much better than in TDK. It felt like there was breathing room rather than the constant 200mph that TDK was doing. TDK feels like a big story where everyone said their lines really fast and scenes moved really fast just to fit everything into 150 or so minutes. This film simply feels like scenes were left out. In fact, I'd love to see a longer cut if there could be one.

-Finally there are appealing women. After Katie Homely and E.T. Gyllenhammer we get Cotillard, Hathaway, and even, for a few seconds, Juno Temple. And we get some ounce of sensuality.

-The humour is better handled. They got a better guy to play the cop who gets those action sequence lines.

One thing that irked me, Batman meeting up with Catwoman and then being confronted by Bane seemed to come out of nowhere and I would have prefered Bane trap Batman in a slightly different manner.

Tubes wrote:

Anyone else think of this during the end?


"Somedays, you just can't get rid of a bomb!"

I thought that when I first read the spoilers.

Another positive, I loved the "We're both suckers." moment when Batman and Catwoman kiss.

The White Tuxedo wrote:

The real concern I have is training. They showed Blake as a capable detective, and he certainly has courage and a good heart. But is he physically up to it?

Blake was in a boys' home and forster care. He may have even spent time on the streets. He makes it pretty clear that he lived on the rough side of town as a child. You could reasonably come up with an explanation that he learned how to take care of himself based on his upbringing.

If Warner Bros. were to pursue a Batman film with John Blake as Batman, then I think it's important that his Batman is as different from Wayne's Batman as Blake himself is different from Bruce Wayne. They both represent the same things, but they can go about it in different ways. And I think it's important because the film would need to set itself apart from Nolan's film, even though they exist within the same universe, lest the film be criticised for simply trying to imitate Nolan.