Bond 25 (2019)

Very elegant write-up, Khanners. I don't disagree that SPECTRE is visually appealing in places (discounting the orange gradient that appears too frequently) and it is indeed laden with some of the old Bondian glamour and Benign Bizarre elements (credit to your good self for coining that term in the ancient days of KTBEU). That said, these things, for me at least, can't mask the fact that it was an overly long mess with a dud script, which is all rather unfortunate.

Vesper wrote:

I don't know why you guys are pointing to SPECTRE as some nadir when we still have Quantum of Solace in recent memory.

'Cos SPECTRE came after the fabulous Skyfall. Like Oppers, it promised so much and delivered so little.

Erica Ambler wrote:

Vesper wrote:

I don't know why you guys are pointing to SPECTRE as some nadir when we still have Quantum of Solace in recent memory.

'Cos SPECTRE came after the fabulous Skyfall. Like Oppers, it promised so much and delivered so little.

Being compared to "Spectre" might be the worst I have ever been insulted.

CJB wrote:

Very elegant write-up, Khanners. I don't disagree that SPECTRE is visually appealing in places (discounting the orange gradient that appears too frequently) and it is indeed laden with some of the old Bondian glamour and Benign Bizarre elements (credit to your good self for coining that term in the ancient days of KTBEU). That said, these things, for me at least, can't mask the fact that it was an overly long mess with a dud script, which is all rather unfortunate.

Thanks, CJB.

What were some of elements in the screenplay you loathed the most? I won't deny the script may have let SP down in a few spots, but off the top o' me head, I can't think of anything as dreadful as some of junk that occurs in CR while Bond is convalescing.

CJB wrote:

Very elegant write-up, Khanners. I don't disagree that SPECTRE is visually appealing in places (discounting the orange gradient that appears too frequently) and it is indeed laden with some of the old Bondian glamour and Benign Bizarre elements (credit to your good self for coining that term in the ancient days of KTBEU). That said, these things, for me at least, can't mask the fact that it was an overly long mess with a dud script, which is all rather unfortunate.

This. 

I'd also disagree about Craig's performance, but that's me.

Perilagu Khan wrote:

What were some of elements in the screenplay you loathed the most? I won't deny the script may have let SP down in a few spots, but off the top o' me head, I can't think of anything as dreadful as some of junk that occurs in CR while Bond is convalescing.

I personally rate SP above CR, but both are bottom of the barrel for me. 

Not to step on CJB's toes, but I'd say, in my opinion, that SP's script fails here:

- Most glaringly, the characterisation of Blofeld/Oberhauser
- The lack of flow between scenes, i.e. Bond getting tortured but has no effect on him, the tiny threads of leads that propel Bond to the next destination, not seeing how SPECTRE are targeting victim nations to convince them to adopt Nine Eyes.
- The development of Bond and Madeleine's relationship is sketchy. Like the above point, there is no flow and natural progression to their love story. 
- Characters make non-sensical decisions. Why would Bond leave Madeleine alone in London? 
- The final act should have also been in the desert and not in London. Taking care of C should have been an epilogue, not a 20 minute sequence.

You haven't stepped on my toes at all, Fields, as I'm in complete agreement with the points you made.

- "C" was the most forgettable villain in the entire history of the franchise
- The third act was boring and unnecessary; in tried-and-true Bondian fashion the climactic struggle should've occurred in the villain's lair
- Never bought Bond and Madeline for a moment
- The Blofeld bastardisation was unforgivable; sometimes it's best to let sleeping dogs lie rather than dig them up and dress them as llamas (old Peruvian proverb... I imagine).

I wish I could edit out that hyphen in my post. Don't know what I was thinking there.

I like your review a lot. You have pointed out some interesting insights I have failed to see myself. And they explain quite well why I like it. Thank you for sharing that.

To C: I think this is simply an intertextual reference to Sherlock because they let forgot-his-name fall down another "Reichenbach Fall". It is charming for what it is, but quite unnecessary as it does not add further meaning. Intertextual references for the sake of intertextual references ("See, we know that you all have that role-memory in your mind. Do you enjoy that?") are very chic at the moment.
He is not the among the worst henchmen, IMO, he is still quite convincing as a mole in the very heart of British security (very John LeCarré in its set up). And he has Blohauser / Oberfeld for a teacher, what do you expect? Poor man.

I agree in regard to the love-story. That's as unconvincing as the sudden change of minds at the end of LTK. It simply looks like one scene was deleted, one in which they would get closer and past the hostility.

And you have found a "panopticon".

Kath wrote:

And you have found a "panopticon".

Helluva coincidence, that...

Foucault's theories may not die out as soon as you have predicted.

Well, the panopticon, or a close approximation of it, seems to be all the rage in the West.

An intertextual reference between Scott's C and Moriarty never occurred to me.

Probably better that Bond doesn't refer to Sherlock, given how far up its own arse that series has now sadly travelled.

While I can appreciate a differing argument for me SP was literally the worst thing to ever happen to the franchise-worse even than Deaver's Carte Blanche novel. I felt it was a criminally empty and soulless experience of unending length.

And for all the labeling of coldness and intellectual that Kubrick always had applied to his work there is no way he would make a boring and empty adventure film. He would have made an intelligent but striking Western in One Eyed Jacks and he admitted to enjoying the series since he found Ken Adam via DN and secretly helped light the Jonah set. I've often wondered what he would have done but find it much more likely he would have bowed out gracefully as he always felt the need to fully control every project and very likely would have been of the opinion it wasn't for him to do.

Somebody made a fan trailer for a potential third Dalton film I think on BAB somewhere and made a what if credit showing Frankenheimer as director. I broke down and teared up over that. THAT film would have been one of the greatest ever made.

Soulless puts it very well. Many Bond films are formulaic but Spectre is the first I would accuse of being bland and corporate. It has none of the qualities Kubrick brought to his work; there's nothing of the auteur about Spectre; it's a hack work.

hegottheboot wrote:

While I can appreciate a differing argument for me SP was literally the worst thing to ever happen to the franchise-worse even than Deaver's Carte Blanche novel. I felt it was a criminally empty and soulless experience of unending length.

And for all the labeling of coldness and intellectual that Kubrick always had applied to his work there is no way he would make a boring and empty adventure film. He would have made an intelligent but striking Western in One Eyed Jacks and he admitted to enjoying the series since he found Ken Adam via DN and secretly helped light the Jonah set. I've often wondered what he would have done but find it much more likely he would have bowed out gracefully as he always felt the need to fully control every project and very likely would have been of the opinion it wasn't for him to do.

Somebody made a fan trailer for a potential third Dalton film I think on BAB somewhere and made a what if credit showing Frankenheimer as director. I broke down and teared up over that. THAT film would have been one of the greatest ever made.

The only thing about SP that bored me was the London coda. But opinions vary.

Erica Ambler wrote:

Soulless puts it very well. Many Bond films are formulaic but Spectre is the first I would accuse of being bland and corporate. It has none of the qualities Kubrick brought to his work; there's nothing of the auteur about Spectre; it's a hack work.

The plot may or may not be formulaic--then again the formula is part of what makes Bond films Bond films--but as I argued in my review, SP's aesthetics are striking and suggest high talent behind the lens and on the director's chair. Is SP of Kubrickian quality? No. But it is redolent of his work.

Unfortunately, the aesthetics aren't enough when the script is about as reliable as a story from Carver's media group.

The shot of Bond approaching White's house evokes Kubrick, but it feels tonally inconsistent with the rest of the film.

Bond's entry into White's house with the sudden appearance of ravens is a classic (of horror movies). As is the scene when the ravens gorge on White's body.

I still like SPECTRE more than not. No where near the doldrums of the Brosnan era, and QOS is still the weakest of Craig's run (which has slowly descended down the list over the years for me). Smallest surprise is the song. Back when it came out, I didn't like it very much and ranked it among the bottom, but since then it's grown on me to the point of being middle-tier (not a lot of praise, admittedly). Contrast that to "Another Way to Die", which manages to sound worse and worse the more I hear it. Is it deserving of an Oscar? Probably not, but I can think of worse songs, which rightfully never got accolades. Overall, I think of SPECTRE as being more of a strange throwback to the Connery era, a chance for Craig to kind of loosen up after having so much soul searching in the first three entries.

I only wish this line actually happened.

C: But then isn't that what 'M' stands for... 'moron'?
[squeezes trigger, realizes the gun is unloaded]
M: And now we know what 'C' stands for... 'cunt'.

Would have brought it up a few spots on the list alone.

That's a straight road to a 15 rating in the UK and an R in the States, though.

Blunt Instrument wrote:

That's a straight road to a 15 rating in the UK and an R in the States, though.

M slipped a fuck into Skyfall, though, didn't she?

Hang on, that didn't come out right. As the actress said to the bishop…

And welcome back, Python. Been a while.

Makeshift Python wrote:

I still like SPECTRE more than not. No where near the doldrums of the Brosnan era, and QOS is still the weakest of Craig's run (which has slowly descended down the list over the years for me). Smallest surprise is the song. Back when it came out, I didn't like it very much and ranked it among the bottom, but since then it's grown on me to the point of being middle-tier (not a lot of praise, admittedly). Contrast that to "Another Way to Die", which manages to sound worse and worse the more I hear it. Is it deserving of an Oscar? Probably not, but I can think of worse songs, which rightfully never got accolades. Overall, I think of SPECTRE as being more of a strange throwback to the Connery era, a chance for Craig to kind of loosen up after having so much soul searching in the first three entries.

I only wish this line actually happened.

C: But then isn't that what 'M' stands for... 'moron'?
[squeezes trigger, realizes the gun is unloaded]
M: And now we know what 'C' stands for... 'cunt'.

Would have brought it up a few spots on the list alone.

Or better still, left it out, considering we all knew what M really implied before sidestepping and saying 'careless'. 

I agree about Another Way to Die... It just doesn't have anything going for it.

AWTD is an obscenity. A vomitous mass of a Bond "song." Jack E. White should have been compelled to enter a monastery after that rot.

PS--Sam Smith's song (the title escapes me) isn't a whole lot better...