Previous Debate: Naomie Harris as Moneypenny - Approve or not?

Lazenby. wrote:

Makeshift Python wrote:

I don't care if she was cast because of Babs' PC thing, it doesn't matter as long as something good comes out of it.

There's no reason why Harris can't be a decent Moneypenny in the next film, but it's what will "come out of it" long term which worries me. It feels like just one more step towards Bond 25, 26 or 27 having Bond as a handicapped black male with a lisp and a wheelchair being pushed around by superior women in a cast that reads like luvvies-R-us, all of it brought to us by the writer and director of The King's Speech, with Babs sat there at the Oscars with a big fat smug grin on her face and the kids raving about it on Facebook, whilst Fleming fans and fortysomething males everywhere furiously try to figure out the easiest way to kill themselves. Exaggeration? Of course, but I definitely feel there's a road being travelled here which could end in Babs getting exactly what she wants, even if it means cutting off a huge amount of the hands which have fed her for the last few decades.

I was talking about Harris' performance alone, not what Babs has in mind for the future. If everyone wants to talk about what a evil devil bitch Babs apparently is made out to be, perhaps a separate thread should be created for that discussion and this one focusing on whether Harris is suitable or not.



Gonna go a bit off topic: But one gal I always thought that might have made a good Moneypenny was Canadian actress Rekha Sharma. She looks like a sexy secretary, has a good presence and I'd like to hit it.

Makeshift Python wrote:

Lazenby. wrote:

Makeshift Python wrote:

I don't care if she was cast because of Babs' PC thing, it doesn't matter as long as something good comes out of it.

There's no reason why Harris can't be a decent Moneypenny in the next film, but it's what will "come out of it" long term which worries me. It feels like just one more step towards Bond 25, 26 or 27 having Bond as a handicapped black male with a lisp and a wheelchair being pushed around by superior women in a cast that reads like luvvies-R-us, all of it brought to us by the writer and director of The King's Speech, with Babs sat there at the Oscars with a big fat smug grin on her face and the kids raving about it on Facebook, whilst Fleming fans and fortysomething males everywhere furiously try to figure out the easiest way to kill themselves. Exaggeration? Of course, but I definitely feel there's a road being travelled here which could end in Babs getting exactly what she wants, even if it means cutting off a huge amount of the hands which have fed her for the last few decades.

I was talking about Harris' performance alone, not what Babs has in mind for the future.

Yep, and I do agree that Harris could well be fine in the singular sense of performance in the next film and other films to follow. But I'm weary of her casting because I fear it could be a choice made more to open doors for the future, doors which many fans seem to wish were remained closed (black Bond, gay Bond, transsexual Bond etc). I want what's best for the franchise and it's fans, not what's best for Babs to score PC brownie points in some sort of quest to outshine her father's legacy simply by controversially rewriting the rule book yet simultaneously potentially worsening her already poor record of only one really decent film from the last six.

You're right though, we could probably use a "Babs is the devil" thread or something to avoid the venting constantly spilling elsewhere. Though I guess one could still argue relevance to the current discussion, mind.

And yep, the above: definitely hit-worthy. 8)

"Babs is the devil' would be a great idea for a thread, as there is no shortage of material for that topic, but it also fits here, as the casting of Harris as MP reflects more on Bab's priorities than anything else, as there is no doubt in my mind that Harris could play the role, and probably find the right rapport with Craig, however she still doesn't have the right look, assuming that matters, and I realize it doesn't to some folks, even to some on this more Fleming/conservative board, as opposed to the other place. If you peruse their thread on the same topic, one is practically KKK if the subject of Harris' non-Maxwell look is even broached.
Its funny, no-one would dare mention the matter for almost two full pages until some wag with exactly a 1 post count, put the matter on the table.
Cue all of the pc mods to dutifully declare her non-whiteness a non-issue. Perish the thought. Oh my. Tolerance people. Groan.

The way I see it, there are three ways to look at Harris' casting, and I can respect 2 of the three viewpoints, even if I only relate to one of them and only grudgingly respect the 2nd.

1. MP should be cast on the Maxwell model. The Maxwell look and ethnicity. That rules out both Harris and Sharma based on ethnicity. It's the same casting criteria that defines the look for Shaft or Mr Tibbs or James Bond (for now at least) or Superman or Charlie Chang or any other character that has a recognizable ethnicity.

2. Forget about ethnicity being a criteria for MP. After close to 50 years of tradition, set it aside and cast the net wide. Harris and Sharma and others become viable candidates.

The above two approaches I think are legit, although I think out of respect for Fleming and the Maxwell tradition, approach #1 is the way to go. There is something to be said for keeping as much traditon and deference to the series film roots as possible.

3. Approach 3 though is what I fear is what's happening here. Its the Bab's approach.
It is quite possible, even probable, that Bab's is looking for a non-white in the role. End of story. She's got an identity politics agenda.

Babs has been screwing with this franchise since GE. Cubby was on death's door by this point. The franchise was firmly in Bab's and MGW's hands, but Bab's seems to have emerged as the boss probably because her agenda is so militant. She's got more skin in the game than MGW whose approach has been more laissez faire. He's a lot older than Babs and likely less driven to put his imprint on the series. He already made his mark on the series, before Bab's became an equal player.
I think the casting of Dench has been a disaster, from the misgynist dinosaur speech onward. This was a radical change in direction as Lee and Brown bascially played the same kind of M.
We have been in the Babs era of Bond since GE and her pc pretentions are all over the franchise. She's been polluting the product in one way or another since the GE re-boot.
IMO the woman is a menace. While Cubby had care and control of this franchise there was nothing really to gripe about of any major substance. Just small stuff, that a rabid fan base would be expected to kick around. Now we don't what to expect. Anything is possible it seems with Bab's driving the bus.

To be fair, Michael Wilson was the guy who encouraged the PC stuff and Babs went with it. It was his idea to have a woman M as a way to shake things up, but you're right that Dench was Babs' choice. Still, it takes two to tango.

I really do not see Wilson being chained in the dungeon like many believe. The guy is just as responsible for what happens as Babs. The biggest example is the reboot idea, that was Wilson's baby. He wanted to do that with the introduction with Dalton but Cubby forbid it. Years later Cubby has passed on and Mikey and Babs finally get the opportunity to pick their first choice Bond and use the reboot angle.

Babs solely being in control sounds like nonsense to me, especially after having listened to the commentaries Mikey participated in. Credit both for what happened since 1995, not "the woman".

Makeshift Python wrote:

Babs solely being in control sounds like nonsense to me, especially after having listened to the commentaries Mikey participated in. Credit both for what happened since 1995, not "the woman".

Why do you put "woman" in quotation marks. I could just as easily have referenced Wilson and said "the man". It's quite a common turn of phrase. Nothing worth drawing attention to.

OK if Wilson is also guilty of pc pretensions it doesn't make Babs any less guilty. Bab's actions, decisions and utterances speak for themselves.

Makeshift Python wrote:

To be fair, Michael Wilson was the guy who encouraged the PC stuff and Babs went with it. It was his idea to have a woman M as a way to shake things up, but you're right that Dench was Babs' choice.

I thought it was Martin Campbell. He sold it to the producers, fearing that they might reject it. To his surprise, they went with it.

He was also the one who suggested Paul Haggis.

Babs, Mike Wilson, Martin Campbell, Paul Haggis... all people that shouldn't be in the industry in the first place.

Makeshift Python wrote:

To be fair, Michael Wilson was the guy who encouraged the PC stuff and Babs went with it. It was his idea to have a woman M as a way to shake things up, but you're right that Dench was Babs' choice. Still, it takes two to tango.

I really do not see Wilson being chained in the dungeon like many believe. The guy is just as responsible for what happens as Babs. The biggest example is the reboot idea, that was Wilson's baby. He wanted to do that with the introduction with Dalton but Cubby forbid it. Years later Cubby has passed on and Mikey and Babs finally get the opportunity to pick their first choice Bond and use the reboot angle.

Babs solely being in control sounds like nonsense to me, especially after having listened to the commentaries Mikey participated in. Credit both for what happened since 1995, not "the woman".

But it was Babs' idea to put Bond in a dress, so we see who has the radical agenda. And to his eternal shame, DC went along with the cross-dressing so my contempt for him is just about as strong as it is for Tits Broccoli.

As an aside, I once heard Mikey Boy say that he and Babs disagreed on practically everything--including politics--but always agreed on Bond. Given the flagrant Leftist meddling with Bond that has taken place recently, I can only conclude that the political differences between Tits and Mikey are analogous to those between the Stalinist and the Trotskyite.

Sharky wrote:

Makeshift Python wrote:

To be fair, Michael Wilson was the guy who encouraged the PC stuff and Babs went with it. It was his idea to have a woman M as a way to shake things up, but you're right that Dench was Babs' choice.

I thought it was Martin Campbell. He sold it to the producers, fearing that they might reject it. To his surprise, they went with it.

He was also the one who suggested Paul Haggis.

In the commentary of GE (along with Martin Campbell), it was someone within EON who threw it in the air and Michael Wilson jumped on the idea making it one of the priorities of GE as a way of further showing the changes in the world around Bond with characters like Dench's M and Zukovsky mocking Bond's character as outdated.

Ed Tom Kowalsky wrote:

Makeshift Python wrote:

To be fair, Michael Wilson was the guy who encouraged the PC stuff and Babs went with it. It was his idea to have a woman M as a way to shake things up, but you're right that Dench was Babs' choice. Still, it takes two to tango.

I really do not see Wilson being chained in the dungeon like many believe. The guy is just as responsible for what happens as Babs. The biggest example is the reboot idea, that was Wilson's baby. He wanted to do that with the introduction with Dalton but Cubby forbid it. Years later Cubby has passed on and Mikey and Babs finally get the opportunity to pick their first choice Bond and use the reboot angle.

Babs solely being in control sounds like nonsense to me, especially after having listened to the commentaries Mikey participated in. Credit both for what happened since 1995, not "the woman".

But it was Babs' idea to put Bond in a dress, so we see who has the radical agenda. And to his eternal shame, DC went along with the cross-dressing so my contempt for him is just about as strong as it is for Tits Broccoli.

I'm talking about Bond films, not advert/side projects. Frankly in the long run I believe the ad is going to be regarded less than a footnote in the Bond series. And I really doubt it's Babs dream to make an official Bond film with Bond wearing a dress. Babs can have credit for the advert as much as she likes but when it comes to the films Mikey is responsible for going along for whatever she comes up just as much as she's responsible for going along with what Mikey cooks up.

Babs' politics are manifest in the ad, and thus far she has shown no inclination to divorce her politics from the films. Thus, the ad and the films are closely related.

As to how the films get made, none of us really know the lay of the land behind the scenes. To assume that there's a 50/50 input with Tits and Mikey and that each has the ability and willingness to veto the actions of the other is just that, an assumption. My suspicion is that there's been a powershift with Babs in the ascendant and Mikey fading into the sunset. If so, I'm disgusted that he's chosen to go out with a whimper rather than a bang.

You should listen to the commentaries, they can be very informative on the creative process. Mikey mentioned that often with Bond films there will be ideas that didn't just crop up from the producer/writer/director but also from other folks at EON even from the smaller crew. It's been that way since the Cubby/Saltzman era.

I should indeed carve out some time to listen to the commentaries and watch the special features.

Ed Tom Kowalsky wrote:

Babs' politics are manifest in the ad, and thus far she has shown no inclination to divorce her politics from the films. Thus, the ad and the films are closely related.

As to how the films get made, none of us really know the lay of the land behind the scenes. To assume that there's a 50/50 input with Tits and Mikey and that each has the ability and willingness to veto the actions of the other is just that, an assumption. My suspicion is that there's been a powershift with Babs in the ascendant and Mikey fading into the sunset. If so, I'm disgusted that he's chosen to go out with a whimper rather than a bang.

This is how it would appear. That notion that they are equally responsible for each others decisions doesnt' make much sense. At best it means they are forced to make trade-offs, not that they agree or support each other. But even in a supposedly equal partnership, one partner can dominate. It has everything to do with force of will, playing the control game better, etc, and Babs seems to be the one that's hyper-energized in this partnership.
As for commentaries, I've listened to every one of them. They are interesting to a point, but like most commentaries, they can be very self serving. Wilson isn't one to bitch in his commentaries. He keeps them friendly, so we are not likely to glean much insight as to Bab's machinations from Wilson's commentaries.
Wilson seems to have a laissez faire approach to Bond - to maintain the legacy. He may act as a check on Bab's potential excesses, but he's not doing much of a job IMO.
The franchise sure has changed since Cubby expired.

tiffanywint wrote:

The franchise sure has changed since Cubby expired.

"Why couldn't ya have had a boy?!"

No wonder we aren't getting any new members.

Loving the cocksuck points in this thread btw.

It doesn't thrill me with the notion of her as MP; I really hoped the canadian girl from the end of QOS would resurface as Moneypenny , she had something very strong in almost zero screentime, an essential for MP.

Shoot, I'd've been happy with the first girl from MI5/spooks as MP, too.

Well, now I'm wondering who'll be Q ... probably not the guy who built the special vacuum cleaner you see on TV, though he'd be fine by me ...

trevanian wrote:

It doesn't thrill me with the notion of her as MP; I really hoped the canadian girl from the end of QOS would resurface as Moneypenny , she had something very strong in almost zero screentime, an essential for MP.

Shoot, I'd've been happy with the first girl from MI5/spooks as MP, too.

Well, now I'm wondering who'll be Q ... probably not the guy who built the special vacuum cleaner you see on TV, though he'd be fine by me ...

That's Stana Katic, the star of Castle TV show. She'd make a good MP. Why not? She is pretty good looking but MP can still be good looking just not Ursula Andress in a bikini hot, or Bond would not be able to keep his paws off her.

Ed Tom Kowalsky wrote:

"Why couldn't ya have had a boy?!"

You know Khanners, I can hear Dalts saying just that.

Ed Tom Kowalsky wrote:

But it was Babs' idea to put Bond in a dress, so we see who has the radical agenda. And to his eternal shame, DC went along with the cross-dressing so my contempt for him is just about as strong as it is for Tits Broccoli.

In total agreement. The last time I saw an act of treachery this deep was when Eve offered Adam a bite of the forbidden fruit and like a chump he just went along with it. But to address the larger point.....you can't simply divorce the PSA from the rest of the Bond series just because the PSA is not officially part of the film canon. The PSA speaks to the mindset of the people running the series.

And, I have to tell you, the PSA did wonders for me over at CBn, because right before this ad came out, I had people yelling at me and screaming at me saying that there was no such thing as a left-wing agenda taking place in the Bond series, and then this video with Craig-in-a-dress came out and for about 24 hours there was silence in the thread. You could hear birds chirping. Then the Babocaust deniers reassembled their talking points, got onto the same page, and began denying that the PSA was evidence of left-wing bias creeping into the series.

Back to whether Naomi Harris should be Moneypenny...I voted no. I have to admit, though, that in a recent interview I saw of her she seemed very sweet and innocent and pretty much like "the girl next door" that your mom always wanted you to marry, which is what I always wanted the Moneypenny character to get back to, and not the slutty tramp she became under Samantha Bond. My problem is that I simply no longer trust EON to be making a simple Bond film; they've been using Bond to promote social causes since 1995 and they've recently stepped up their radicalism in the past few years with the hiring of Haggis. And because of that...because we now have a female M (and Dench is my favorite M by far, so I can't be a misogynist), a black Leiter, and a Bond actor willing to put on stockings, a wig, pumps and a dress for a public service announcement regarding the plight of the world's women, people on the other side of this issue should be able to at least understand why some of us may believe that EON might not be hiring Harris because she's a talented actress, but because she's black and brings a certain "diversity" to whatever role that she's playing, for some reason EON still thinks we need.

You prefer Dench to Bernard Lee?! Now I think she does a good job with the role, but bloody hell!

Ed Tom Kowalsky wrote:

You prefer Dench to Bernard Lee?! Now I think she does a good job with the role, but bloody hell!

Yes, I prefer Dench to Bernard Lee. In fact, I prefer Robert Brown to Bernard Lee.

I think Dench is simply the best. I realize that's a minority opinion, but she brings something to the role that even Lee and Brown could not have brought. However, some of her scenes with 007 have gotten a bit repetitive lately; we need to get past the point where she's hesitant to put Bond in action, does so reluctantly, berates him in the process, then is surprised at the end when Bond turned out to be both right and successful. In fact, I think BOND-23 needs to be Dench's last film anyway. Time to go out on a high note.

Gravity's Silhouette wrote:

Ed Tom Kowalsky wrote:

You prefer Dench to Bernard Lee?! Now I think she does a good job with the role, but bloody hell!

Yes, I prefer Dench to Bernard Lee. In fact, I prefer Robert Brown to Bernard Lee.

I think Dench is simply the best. I realize that's a minority opinion, but she brings something to the role that even Lee and Brown could not have brought. However, some of her scenes with 007 have gotten a bit repetitive lately; we need to get past the point where she's hesitant to put Bond in action, does so reluctantly, berates him in the process, then is surprised at the end when Bond turned out to be both right and successful. In fact, I think BOND-23 needs to be Dench's last film anyway. Time to go out on a high note.

After the way QOS concluded, the writers have absolutely no excuse to bring up the trust issue once again. And yes, Bond 23 should be her last. She will have been in less films than Bernard Lee, but she'll certainly go out as the M with the most overall screentime.

It would be nice to see M show full confidence in Bond in the next film. No trust issues.

FieldsMan wrote:

I voted no. I'm not a racist.

Basically, I don't think she is much of an actress, so I don't know if she can pull off one of the most loved characters of the franchise. I was never really supporting the notion ofher being a Bond girl as initially suggested. So it isn't a matter of racial discrimination and all of that jazz. When she was rumoured to be playing Moneypenny, I was vexated because Moneypenny is traditionally a white character, and that's how I want it to be. I like retro Bond, so reform isn't what I'm after.

They made Felix Leiter black. C'mon, think to Live and Let Die. The book would be much different if Felix wasn't white.

Walecs wrote:

They made Felix Leiter black.

And what a fun, sprightly character he's turned out to be. My favourite line of his is "*mumble mumble* brother."

I also hold high hopes for the teenage Q and his fart apps.

Wrong, his best line was clearly "that why I eat de peppahz".


Anyway, I don't think Felix being black was harmful, and I don't see the harm in making Moneypenny black. She's a cute secretary that Bond flirts with, where her ancestors descended from doesn't hold much relevance.