What unused Fleming ideas would you like to see in a future Bond film?

Perilagu Khan wrote:

But gambling and cards are so much in Bond's past. Let him videogame and skateboard instead. Onward and upward!

:*sm*:

But if Bond was to 'videogame', he'd be copying NSNA. Now we wouldn't want that, would we? Then again, it might prove a viable option when trying to make Bond a relatable hero...to the children, that is.

If Bond skateboards it'd be Marty Mcfly-esque. A special hoverboard designed by Q which can also be remote-controlled by Bond's iphone/pad/etc and at the flick of a wrist either become invisible or foldable under Bond's jacket into the shape of an Oystercard.

In Goldfinger, Fleming refers to the callgirls Auric paints gold before screwing, "fierce possessions." Occurs to me that The Fierce Possession would make a cracking good film title.

I'd like to see the majority of MR

DAF - football stomping on Bond, the mud baths, train scene

TSWLM - Viv Michel, Horror and Sluggsy, the shootout at the motel

YOLT - Bond creeping in to the Garden of Death and slaying the dragon within. You could easily rewrite this storyline, replace Blofeld with some other villain, replace Japan for some other location, replace the garden of death motive from suicide to something else, etc. if required.

TMWTGG - the novel in its entirety, from a brainwashed Bond confronting M, to Bond's relationship with Scaramanga, to the finale shootout on the train.

And EON say they've exhausted all the Fleming material? Kiss my ass!!!! :evil:

jet set willy wrote:

YOLT - Bond creeping in to the Garden of Death and slaying the dragon within. You could easily rewrite this storyline, replace Blofeld with some other villain, replace Japan for some other location, replace the garden of death motive from suicide to something else, etc. if required.

Instead of suicides, how about as some kind of natural defence system? The Garden is the villain's stronghold, and it is populated with poisonous plants and animals to deter intruders. The fumaroles could be used to dispose of the bodies (rather than throwing live victims in, which is a bit sadistic).

Otherwise, the only thing I could think of is a GOLDFINGER-style stand-alone pre-title sequence, with Bond infiltrating the Garden - a chemical weapons laboratory - to destroy it. His escape could involve running across the roof and jumping over the edge with a downed parachute, using the heat rising from a fumarole to unfurl the parachute, then sail across the Garden, over the wall and drop down a cliff face into the sea as the Garden explodes around him. Yes, it's a lot like the GOLDENEYE pre-titles, but it would have less of a video game feel and more of the touch of the bizarre about it.

Prisoner Monkeys wrote:

jet set willy wrote:

YOLT - Bond creeping in to the Garden of Death and slaying the dragon within. You could easily rewrite this storyline, replace Blofeld with some other villain, replace Japan for some other location, replace the garden of death motive from suicide to something else, etc. if required.

Instead of suicides, how about as some kind of natural defence system? The Garden is the villain's stronghold, and it is populated with poisonous plants and animals to deter intruders. The fumaroles could be used to dispose of the bodies (rather than throwing live victims in, which is a bit sadistic).

Otherwise, the only thing I could think of is a GOLDFINGER-style stand-alone pre-title sequence, with Bond infiltrating the Garden - a chemical weapons laboratory - to destroy it. His escape could involve running across the roof and jumping over the edge with a downed parachute, using the heat rising from a fumarole to unfurl the parachute, then sail across the Garden, over the wall and drop down a cliff face into the sea as the Garden explodes around him. Yes, it's a lot like the GOLDENEYE pre-titles, but it would have less of a video game feel and more of the touch of the bizarre about it.

I think to do that scene any justice, it would have to be used as a cimax to the film, where the main villain is inside the castle, and Bond has to somehow get in to kill him, escaping on the balloon afterwards.

Well, that's why I suggested having the Garden of Death as a defence system, rather than a plot element. The problem with adapting You Only Live Twice is that the plot hinges Japanese attitudes towards suicide - Tiger Tanaka is unable to take action against Blofeld because Blofeld does not commit any crimes under Japanese law (at least, none that can be proven). Suicide is a very sentitive issue to address in film, and doubly so in Japan where it is a real social issue. The Japanese tried to explore the concept about a decade ago with SUICIDE CIRCLE, so to have it as a plot driver in a James Bond film would be insensitive to say the least. It would be a bit like THE KINGDOM, which really tried to pitch itself as a film that examined the actual motivations of Islamic extremism, but just ended up being a string of cliches that were well and truly wide of the mark. Making a straight adaptiation of You Only Live Twice would be impossible.

So, if the Garden of Death were to feature in a Bond film, it might have to be downgraded to a death-trap rather than the pivotal plot element.

Prisoner Monkeys wrote:

Well, that's why I suggested having the Garden of Death as a defence system, rather than a plot element. The problem with adapting You Only Live Twice is that the plot hinges Japanese attitudes towards suicide - Tiger Tanaka is unable to take action against Blofeld because Blofeld does not commit any crimes under Japanese law (at least, none that can be proven). Suicide is a very sentitive issue to address in film, and doubly so in Japan where it is a real social issue. The Japanese tried to explore the concept about a decade ago with SUICIDE CIRCLE, so to have it as a plot driver in a James Bond film would be insensitive to say the least. It would be a bit like THE KINGDOM, which really tried to pitch itself as a film that examined the actual motivations of Islamic extremism, but just ended up being a string of cliches that were well and truly wide of the mark. Making a straight adaptiation of You Only Live Twice would be impossible.

So, if the Garden of Death were to feature in a Bond film, it might have to be downgraded to a death-trap rather than the pivotal plot element.

Maybe a silly question to ask, but why couldn't a Bond film feature the YOLT suicide storyline in Japan? Who do you think it would upset if EON decided to go with a storyline like that? The Japanese?

Would they really be offended that a storyline is based around Japanese committing suicide? Is it really that sensitive?

I think the goosestepping sausage eaters from Moonraker would be highly appropriate given the way Germany's currently throwing her weight around. Angela Merkel would look good with a moustache as well.

Fleming's Bond hasn't been used in any of the recent films.

They should look into that.

jet set willy wrote:

Maybe a silly question to ask, but why couldn't a Bond film feature the YOLT suicide storyline in Japan? Who do you think it would upset if EON decided to go with a storyline like that? The Japanese?

Would they really be offended that a storyline is based around Japanese committing suicide? Is it really that sensitive?

Yes. I think it would upset Japan. The Japanese attitude toward suicide is a major social issue over there. Like I said, they tried to address it in film a few years ago with only middling success. To make it a pivotal plot point in a Bond film - known for their light-hearted approach - would be a bad move.

I also think it would make for a very poor film because Blofeld technically doesn't do anything wrong. Tanaka cannot do anything about him because Blofeld does not commit a crime on Japanese soil. A film version would have to show a villain actually doing something villainous.

Personally, I'm not that big a fan of the novel. I don't think it's that great. It has no real resolution, Bond fails in his mission to identify Magic-44 and Blofeld does not do anything particularly villainous (except be Blofeld).

Prisoner Monkeys wrote:

Personally, I'm not that big a fan of the novel. I don't think it's that great. It has no real resolution, Bond fails in his mission to identify Magic-44 and Blofeld does not do anything particularly villainous (except be Blofeld).

Once again your plot-centric tunnel vision is getting in the way. YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE works as a novel because of its poignancy. Ian Fleming wrote it fully knowing he would soon die, and the novel in many respects is about coming to terms with death. Not fearing or embracing it, but simply accepting it as an inevitable fact of life. Bond's long journey through Shatterhand's island (like Dante and Virgil's journey through the nine circles of hell) is unprecedented in Fleming's canon. Bond has rarely ever gotten more profound than this.

I read the novel once after a loss of a loved one, and I've never looked at it the same way since.

To answer your three complaints:

- It has an ambiguous ending, with Bond neither alive nor dead, in an amnesiac haze. Almost like he's gone to the afterlife with Kissy, and heaven/paradise is living out an anonymous existence as a Japanese fisherman. So what? Unresolved narrative can be found throughout fiction, both good and bad.

- It has a downbeat ending. Again, so what? Bond botched his mission in CASINO ROYALE too. If you seriously think YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE is about the MacGuffin (Magic 44), then you're not seeing the wood from the trees. It's merely a means for Bond to cross paths again with Blofeld.

- IIRC, Blofeld forces Bond to speak by placing him in a geyser than goes off every fifteen minutes. So if he maintains his cover as a mute fisherman, he'll die. Sounds pretty villainous to me.

Sharky wrote:

- It has an ambiguous ending, with Bond neither alive nor dead, in an amnesiac haze. Almost like he's gone to the afterlife with Kissy, and heaven/paradise is living out an anonymous existence as a Japanese fisherman. So what? Unresolved narrative can be found throughout fiction, both good and bad.

I still think the ending could have been better, even with every story detail left in place. It just kind of ends.

Sharky wrote:

- It has a downbeat ending. Again, so what? Bond botched his mission in CASINO ROYALE too. If you seriously think YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE is about the MacGuffin (Magic 44), then you're not seeing the wood from the trees. It's merely a means for Bond to cross paths again with Blofeld.

And that's the problem - it's a means for Bond to encounter Blofeld again. There is nothing about the story that feels like it had to be told.

Sharky wrote:

- IIRC, Blofeld forces Bond to speak by placing him in a geyser than goes off every fifteen minutes. So if he maintains his cover as a mute fisherman, he'll die. Sounds pretty villainous to me.

But Blofeld doesn't do anything villainous until Bond actually breaks into the Garden of Death. The audience should see an evil that needs to be stopped before Bond goes to destroy it.

YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE is a marvelous mood piece, and it's far and away my favorite Bond novel.

But we're talking about adapting it into a film. And I don't think it would work without some rewrites like CASINO ROYALE. In the original CR novel, Le Chiffre lost his money because of a bad investment. In the film, he lost the money because of Bond. I just think that if ever YOLT were to be adapted, it would need a similar treatment.

Prisoner Monkeys wrote:

I still think the ending could have been better, even with every story detail left in place. It just kind of ends.

The ending is the most devastating thing Fleming ever wrote. In those last few pages, it is suggested that Bond's own desire for self-knowledge will deny him the happy, simple life that he enjoyed on Kuro. Rediscovering his self will ultimately lead him to his death, because James Bond is ultimately a Man of Death, and as one who has lived by the sword, will die by it, too.

Prisoner Monkeys wrote:

There is nothing about the story that feels like it had to be told.

It successfully resolves the James Bond story. It is, effectively, The End of James Bond. That is why it had to be told.

Prisoner Monkeys wrote:

But Blofeld doesn't do anything villainous until Bond actually breaks into the Garden of Death.

The existence of the Garden of Death is fiendish enough. Besides, we already know Blofeld from THUNDERBALL and ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE; his villainy is well-established by the time we get to YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE.

Prisoner Monkeys wrote:

But we're talking about adapting it into a film.

So? There are cinematic mood pieces, too.

Prisoner Monkeys wrote:

Sharky wrote:

- It has an ambiguous ending, with Bond neither alive nor dead, in an amnesiac haze. Almost like he's gone to the afterlife with Kissy, and heaven/paradise is living out an anonymous existence as a Japanese fisherman. So what? Unresolved narrative can be found throughout fiction, both good and bad.

I still think the ending could have been better, even with every story detail left in place. It just kind of ends.

It's the obituary that gives it a sense of closure for me. If it just ended with Bond falling from the weather balloon, then I'd agree with you.

Prisoner Monkeys wrote:

Sharky wrote:

- It has a downbeat ending. Again, so what? Bond botched his mission in CASINO ROYALE too. If you seriously think YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE is about the MacGuffin (Magic 44), then you're not seeing the wood from the trees. It's merely a means for Bond to cross paths again with Blofeld.

And that's the problem - it's a means for Bond to encounter Blofeld again. There is nothing about the story that feels like it had to be told.

Tracey's death, and Bond's hopeless state at the beginning. While Magic 44 and the castle are coincidental (as are a lot of things in Fleming's novel), Bond's reason for accepting the mission is not. He's knows deep in his subconscious, who Dr. Guntram Shatterhand really is, after looking at Tiger's photographs.

Prisoner Monkeys wrote:

Sharky wrote:

- IIRC, Blofeld forces Bond to speak by placing him in a geyser than goes off every fifteen minutes. So if he maintains his cover as a mute fisherman, he'll die. Sounds pretty villainous to me.

But Blofeld doesn't do anything villainous until Bond actually breaks into the Garden of Death.

Blofeld hosts, waters and maintains that Garden of Death for suicide. He's like a more sinister Jack Kevorkian.

Sharky wrote:

Tracey's death, and Bond's hopeless state at the beginning. While Magic 44 and the castle are coincidental (as are a lot of things in Fleming's novel), Bond's reason for accepting the mission is not. He's knows deep in his subconscious, who Dr. Guntram Shatterhand really is, after looking at Tiger's photographs.

Then at the very least, a film adapation of YOLT would first require a film adaptation of OHMSS. And EON have stated that they will not re-make films.

Sharky wrote:

Blofeld hosts, waters and maintains that Garden of Death for suicide. He's like a more sinister Jack Kevorkian.

But he doesn't actually do anything. The Garden is there for suicides, but Blofeld never directly encourages it or organises it.

Prisoner Monkeys wrote:

Then at the very least, a film adapation of YOLT would first require a film adaptation of OHMSS. And EON have stated that they will not re-make films.

You could nevertheless preface a YOLT adaptation with a film with a story like OHMSS.

Prisoner Monkeys wrote:

But he doesn't actually do anything. The Garden is there for suicides, but Blofeld never directly encourages it or organises it.

We are told that he designed the garden, and that he intentionally has created it so that people will commit suicide in it. We also see folks commit suicide--to horrific effect--in the garden.

If that's not enough for you, though, I do believe that the McLusky adaptation of YOLT adds the extra layer of Blofeld having built the garden as a way of effectively blackmailing the Japanese government into a payoff of some kind. That angle would be easy enough to work into a film.

Prisoner Monkeys wrote:

jet set willy wrote:

Maybe a silly question to ask, but why couldn't a Bond film feature the YOLT suicide storyline in Japan? Who do you think it would upset if EON decided to go with a storyline like that? The Japanese?

Would they really be offended that a storyline is based around Japanese committing suicide? Is it really that sensitive?

Yes. I think it would upset Japan. The Japanese attitude toward suicide is a major social issue over there. Like I said, they tried to address it in film a few years ago with only middling success. To make it a pivotal plot point in a Bond film - known for their light-hearted approach - would be a bad move.

I also think it would make for a very poor film because Blofeld technically doesn't do anything wrong. Tanaka cannot do anything about him because Blofeld does not commit a crime on Japanese soil. A film version would have to show a villain actually doing something villainous.

Personally, I'm not that big a fan of the novel. I don't think it's that great. It has no real resolution, Bond fails in his mission to identify Magic-44 and Blofeld does not do anything particularly villainous (except be Blofeld).

It could easily be reworked, rewritten and adaped to modern times. Hell, the castle of death could house Mr. White, or the real villain behind Quantum and Vesper's death. Or another revenge aspect could easily be used.

The last two Bond films have not had a light-hearted approach, and so what if a suicide film has been done already about Japanese suicide. A storyline like that in a billion dollar franchise would not affect sales one tiny bit. Are you telling me a Bond film would fail and tank miserably at the box office, because it contained a similar storyline to a film made in Japan that only had moderate success??? We are talking about Bond here. Any old crap will do for a Bond storyline, and it will still sell, because its Bond.

And I think, the same as many others here, that YOLT is actually one of Fleming's greatest novels, not one of his weakest. Fleming has written weaker storylines which have been adapted into film. Its criminal that this particular novel has been completely overlooked, along with TMWTGG.

nm

[quote="Prisoner Monkeys"]

jet set willy wrote:

Bond fails in his mission to identify Magic-44

Identifying Magic 44 was not Bond's mission, obtaining it was. And he accomplished that mission in spades.

As an aside, I'm not convinced the Japanese would go ballistic over cinematic airing of their suicide problem. They haven't totally succumbed to the PC hypersensitivity of the Western and Islamic worlds. That said, I do agree that the YOLT novel plot is a bit parochial and probably not compelling enough for a Bond film.

Sharky wrote:

Prisoner Monkeys wrote:

Sharky wrote:

- It has an ambiguous ending, with Bond neither alive nor dead, in an amnesiac haze. Almost like he's gone to the afterlife with Kissy, and heaven/paradise is living out an anonymous existence as a Japanese fisherman. So what? Unresolved narrative can be found throughout fiction, both good and bad.

I still think the ending could have been better, even with every story detail left in place. It just kind of ends.

It's the obituary that gives it a sense of closure for me. If it just ended with Bond falling from the weather balloon, then I'd agree with you.

Prisoner Monkeys wrote:

Sharky wrote:

- It has a downbeat ending. Again, so what? Bond botched his mission in CASINO ROYALE too. If you seriously think YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE is about the MacGuffin (Magic 44), then you're not seeing the wood from the trees. It's merely a means for Bond to cross paths again with Blofeld.

And that's the problem - it's a means for Bond to encounter Blofeld again. There is nothing about the story that feels like it had to be told.

Tracey's death, and Bond's hopeless state at the beginning. While Magic 44 and the castle are coincidental (as are a lot of things in Fleming's novel), Bond's reason for accepting the mission is not. He's knows deep in his subconscious, who Dr. Guntram Shatterhand really is, after looking at Tiger's photographs.

Prisoner Monkeys wrote:

Sharky wrote:

- IIRC, Blofeld forces Bond to speak by placing him in a geyser than goes off every fifteen minutes. So if he maintains his cover as a mute fisherman, he'll die. Sounds pretty villainous to me.

But Blofeld doesn't do anything villainous until Bond actually breaks into the Garden of Death.

Blofeld hosts, waters and maintains that Garden of Death for suicide. He's like a more sinister Jack Kevorkian.

Super Kevorkian. That's a good way of conceiving YOLT's Blofeld. Then again, Kevorkian was a hero to many.

CJB wrote:

Blades Club, biatches.

Once someone other than Craig-Bond's mother is M, though.

The whole sequence would be a great way to introduce a new M, actually. Some lunch-at-the-Savoy politico peer who's connected and done his time in the Navy/Army/Whatever. Gentleman's clubs have seen a bit of a revival over the past decade or so, too.

Also, on the suicide thing. It could so, so easily be done it's not funny. A couple of lines about suicide here and there that can be cut out or dubbed over for the Japanese release. People suiciding could be cut out and trim a few seconds or minutes. Done. Easy. If it ruins the plot, just replace 'He built it so people could suicide' with 'He built it to store drugs/secrets/Christians' and the Japanese market won't know the difference and will eat it up like they do every Bond film.

Erica Ambler wrote:

I think the goosestepping sausage eaters from Moonraker would be highly appropriate given the way Germany's currently throwing her weight around. Angela Merkel would look good with a moustache as well.