The Star Trek Thread, 3.0

Fairbairn-Sykes wrote:

The score is doing some really heavy lifting to sell it.

Applies to every awful film that Goldsmith scored. He had a bad track record when it came to scoring flicks worthy of his talent.

Seems to be true of the great composers. Great scores to muddled movies.

As far as Nemesis goes, I recall sitting in the cinema hearing Remus and thinking this was going to be some movie. Alas...alas...

Star Trek: Nemesis


"So, you're a Romulan-alligned villain with a giant black spaceship and a superweapon designed to destroy Earth?"


"And at the end of the story your emotionless friend will sacrifice himself to save you from my superweapon, which will explode and destroy me."


"So... was Star Trek XI ripping off us, or Wrath of Khan? Or are we ripping off Wrath of Khan? I'm confused."


"Oh man, that's not even the half of it..."


"Star Trek XII will be the third TWOK rip off in a row, only Kirk dies instead of Spock!"




"Kay man, if you're not going to take this seriously, I'm out."


"Ass. I wonder what being a Batman villain is like."

So, I had a shocking moment watching this. I realized that it's not as bad as I remembered. I think there's a good script in here somewhere. I think that with some re-editing to put some of the deleted scenes back in, restore it more to John Logan's version instead of Stuart Baird's version. But even then, Logan and Baird, as much as they made mistakes, look like freaking geniuses comared to AOKL. And Jerry Goldsmith really pulls his weight with the score. And for the most part the cast really do well with what they have.

There are some nitpicky continuity problems that are really bullshit. Small things that don't destroy the movie but it's like "really guys? Why wasn't anyone paying attention?" Like the Bald Cadet Picard thing, or Beverly saying she knew him at the Academy/His First Command. They're tiny things that are easy fixes -- like explaining Worf and Wesley being there. Easy fixes -- you could say Worf showed up for the wedding in uniform (like ex-military guys do) and then since the whole adventure took place on a detour to going to the other ceremony on Betazed, Worf simply felt obligated to help out. Etc.

And if the deleted scenes had been back in, a lot of stuff would flow better. Like near the end of the movie Worf remarks that the Romulans "fought with honour" which seems really out of character since Worf hates Romulans to an insane degree. But in a deleted scene near the start of the film, Worf warns Picard about dealing with Romulans since they are "without honour", so if that was still in there, all of a sudden you have a character arc instead of a continuity error.

All that aside, at least this movie is trying. Unlike STINO, it has themes that I can identify. I can see what they were going for. And unlike INSURRECTION, the events actually feel significant in the lives of the characters, instead of just a big budget TV episode. Ultimately the film suffers because it can't decide whether it's the last TNG movie or saving things for a sequel, but with the deleted scenes in mind we really get the sense of everyone moving on. Although the Dead Data/B-4 TWOK/TSFS rip off is really on the nose.

But as I said, it's trying. There are real sci-fi themes here, real character stuff, and the space battles feel energetic and dynamic in a way that's exciting after seven years of VOYAGER.The other action scenes aren't as good, I'll admit. That car chase? Ugh. The gun battles in hallways that feel no more exciting than the opening of A NEW HOPE. And the fact that the climax is Picard and Shinzon struggling over a knife? You can feel the execs insisting on more action.

So yeah, NEMESIS isn't perfect, but after the last few years it looks a lot better.

5.5/10

1. STAR TREK: FIRST CONTACT
2. STAR TREK VI: THE UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY
3. STAR TREK II: THE WRATH OF KHAN
4. STAR TREK IV: THE VOYAGE HOME
5. STAR TREK: THE MOTION PICTURE
6. STAR TREK III: THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK
7. STAR TREK V: THE FINAL FRONTIER
8. STAR TREK: GENERATIONS
9. STAR TREK: NEMESIS
10. STAR TREK: INSURRECTION
11. STAR TREK

Fairbairn-Sykes wrote:

1. STAR TREK: FIRST CONTACT
2. STAR TREK VI: THE UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY
3. STAR TREK II: THE WRATH OF KHAN
4. STAR TREK IV: THE VOYAGE HOME
5. STAR TREK: THE MOTION PICTURE
6. STAR TREK III: THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK
7. STAR TREK V: THE FINAL FRONTIER
8. STAR TREK: GENERATIONS
9. STAR TREK: NEMESIS
10. STAR TREK: INSURRECTION
11. STAR TREK

I actually enjoyed Nemesis a lot more on the last viewing, and while I recognise the rip it takes of 'Khan' I prefer it, imo the dialogue is better, the acting much better, effects better and the music is in a different league.

As to the effect Goldsmith has on the series, it is undoubtedly considerable and it might be interesting to think how the nu-trek films would play divorced from that abortion of a score by GGiiaacchhinnoo (actual name may contain fewer letters).

Oi! Python! Do your job.

Just purchased the third season of TNG on blu, as Amazon just reduced the price to $59.99. :shock: Contrast that to ten years ago, when Paramount was selling the DVD seasons at the minimum of $130.

About to watch the entire Motion Picture Saga in order, just like before NuTrek came out in '09. A lot of them I haven't seen since I moved back home.


"Bring it on"

I'm not sure if I'll even see STINO 2 in the cinema. I've seen 'em all in the cinema since GENERETARD.

Yeah I think I'm skipping STINO 2, but I was shocked to find how much I liked NEMESIS in retrospect compared to it.

Funny thing is that I've watched every Trek film in theaters since GENERATIONS, except for FIRST CONTACT, so I haven't really seen a decent film in theaters at all. Closest I come to that is the Fathom Event screenings for "The Measure of a Man", "Q Who", and "The Best of Both Worlds".

As for STINO 2, I still have two gift cards left to use, so at least I won't be paying by the buck. When you Tux and FS do finally get to see STINO 2, let me know so that we can share the pain.

I'll have to see it to tear it a new asshole on the internets.

I had wanted to finish my TOS run before the film. That won't happen. Too much else to do.

And...

"Didn't someone just die here?"

STAR TREK: THE MOTION PICTURE

Even with about 30 minutes of the film consisting of people staring at viewscreens, I'll be damned if TMP isn't the glossiest, most technically sound Trek film out there. It's essentially a TOS episode on steroids and with a special effects budget of 3 movies. Every single SFX shot here looks glorious and outstrips any work done in the series since. Sure, the acting is mediocre at times and the plot is thin, but on a massive screen, TMP shines. I ended up staring slack jawed at the V'ger cloud just like the bridge crew did.

That being said, TMP is too fucking long. A lot of the SFX sequences, amazing as they are, outstay their welcome by a longshot. One could literally get up once the Enterprise heads into the cloud, go to the bathroom, wait in line for a soda, and come back without missing anything important. I have yet to see the Directors Edition that came out on DVD, but it doesn't sound like a massive improvement in pacing.

TREK-A-THON

1. STAR TREK: THE MOTION PICTURE






"Truthfully, I wish more of these Trek projects had barely concealed nudity and shower scenes. Would have made my job a lot more fun. Say, Rick, can we work on the HBO version of THE NAKED NOW?"

Tubes wrote:

STAR TREK: THE MOTION PICTURE

Even with about 30 minutes of the film consisting of people staring at viewscreens, I'll be damned if TMP isn't the glossiest, most technically sound Trek film out there. It's essentially a TOS episode on steroids and with a special effects budget of 3 movies. Every single SFX shot here looks glorious and outstrips any work done in the series since. Sure, the acting is mediocre at times and the plot is thin, but on a massive screen, TMP shines. I ended up staring slack jawed at the V'ger cloud just like the bridge crew did.

That being said, TMP is too fucking long. A lot of the SFX sequences, amazing as they are, outstay their welcome by a longshot. One could literally get up once the Enterprise heads into the cloud, go to the bathroom, wait in line for a soda, and come back without missing anything important. I have yet to see the Directors Edition that came out on DVD, but it doesn't sound like a massive improvement in pacing.

TREK-A-THON

1. STAR TREK: THE MOTION PICTURE
]

If it only existed as an excuse to inspire Jerry Goldsmith I think TMP remains the best and most worthy of the original Trek outings.

"Behold, the king of ham!"

STAR TREK II: THE WRATH OF KHAN

Less of a traditional summer tentpole and more of a staged adaption of Moby Dick masquerading as a science fiction film. Above all, however, TWOK is an excellent piece of work all around. Special credit to Meyer on getting more rounded and nuanced performances out of a cast that was flat as a pancake the last time around. Contrasting the subtleties of the Enterprise crew is Montalbon's vengeful, classic literature quoting lunatic in Khan, who is endlessly entertaining to watch. The only real downgrade from TMP to here is Horner's score is good as opposed to the masterful Goldsmith pieces. Aside from that, everything is a massive improvement and easily the pinacle of the series. One could probably make a solid argument about it being at the top of science fiction cinema as well.

TREK-A-ROONI

1. STAR TREK II: THE WRATH OF KHAN
2. STAR TREK: THE MOTION PICTURE


"I cried a little, if only because Kirstie Alley really let herself go after this."

"This is a plot device"

STAR TREK III: THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK

I don't understand how the odd number rule came into being. Whoever came up with that idea must have forgotten just how good TSFS is. Somehow, it maintains a delicate balance between humor and drama, laughs and pathos. Everyone gets their moment to shine and everyone is backed by terrific technical work. Horner in particular outdoes himself, as his score here outstrips his work in KHAN. Just about the only bit that doesn't match KHAN is, naturally, Christopher Lloyd's Kruge. An admirable attempt, but nothing can really beat Khan as a villain. Robin Curtis also is a significant step down from Kirstie Alley, but not as massive as I previously thought. More along the lines that Nimoy directed Curtis differently than Meyer directed Alley and the changes made Saavik a blander and more boring character.

Not quite as good s TWOK, but TSFS does as well as any direct sequel can be expected too.

1. STAR TREK II: THE WRATH OF KHAN
2. STAR TREK III: THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK
3. STAR TREK: THE MOTION PICTURE



"I must protest the gross overstepping of the chain of command here. The Captain must get priority in love scenes, not the first officer"

Tubes wrote:

I don't understand how the odd number rule came into being. Whoever came up with that idea must have forgotten just how good TSFS is.

I think it was simply the whole "not as good as TWOK" thing. It's no where near the other odd number flicks for sure, but it tends rank right above TMP and TFF for many so it's sorta close. I find the flick engaging, despite whatever plot holes. There's enough character in it to make it float.

Good to see praise for Star Trek III.

STAR TREK IV: THE VOYAGE HOME

By all accounts, TVH shouldn't work. Instead of following up two dramatic sci-fi operas that constantly upped the stakes with more of the same, we get HOW I TRAVELED BACK IN TIME AND SAVED THE WHALES. It's just so damned funny, though. Everything in the 80's is stereotypical 80's-ness and downright hilarious. Again, Nimoy juggles the cast and gives everyone responsibilities that suits their characters. It's also amusing how fast and loose everyone is with the concept of time travel and changing the future, especially with how the same subject is treated in the TNG era shows. Perhaps trying to save the earth from a giant wood pellet in space that evaporates water raises the stakes a bit.

It's a good thing the story relies less on SFX than the past three films, because all technical efforts take a leap back here. Photography is bland, space and other special effects aren't nearly as dynamic as either TWOK or TSFS, and the musical score is essentially ambient noise. The saving grace is the movie doesn't rely on them and thus can get away with mediocre peripherals. Essentially, the anti-TMP.

1. STAR TREK II: THE WRATH OF KHAN
2. STAR TREK III: THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK
3. STAR TREK IV: THE VOYAGE HOME
4. STAR TREK: THE MOTION PICTURE


"Ah, the 80's. Pastel colors! Leg Warmers! Cocaine!"

Because I've really enjoyed the new special features of the S2 and 3 TNG blu-rays by Robert Meyer Burnett, I've been very tempted to get the first season of ENT just for the features. But with prices that high and my memory of the season being "been there, done that", I decided to start my viewing on Netflix to see how the first season holds up. If well, I'd consider getting blu. Guess that's not gonna happen so soon. ENT's first season really suffers for being just plain generic and inconsistent. I always called it VOY's 8th season, but with a better cast and I like the premise a little better. Doesn't help that after each episode I watch, I read these reviews: http://www.firsttvdrama.com/enterprise/ Sometimes he gets too nitpicky (like complaining about the crew watching what he thought was a pan-and-scanned movie on a 4:3 screen but the flick was made in the 1940s), but dammit if he doesn't sum up the general problems this show had when it first started. It's inconsistencies galore, characters put in places that don't make sense, Archer and crew being under-prepared in ways that isn't believable (oh right, we didn't set up any protocols in case this happens! Oops).

Such a shame. Well cast, great production values for TV, professionally made, ect. But the writing doesn't live up, not one bit. Nothing feels vital. There's not enough spontaneity. The characters are idiots. The thing that puts it right above VOY and nuTrek is this: It doesn't have Neelix and it doesn't come off as insufferably stupid.

Python wrote:

Archer and crew being under-prepared in ways that isn't believable (oh right, we didn't set up any protocols in case this happens! Oops).

Yeah, that has always bugged me. Like it was a walk in the park. If you read up on NASA and the procedures they have, Starfleet starts to look more like the Russians. They had one working shuttle and it was destroyed in a hanger collapse. Derp.



Well, it was destroyed after over a decade of sitting there after it's one space flight.

If I had to pick an episode that really summed up the problems of ENT in its first two seasons it's "Strange New World". Everything bad happens out of pure incompetence. Archer doesn't even acknowledge his fuck-up at the end.

Quote :

ARCHER: Prep a shuttlepod, Mister Tucker. (Tucker starts to leave) I like the looks of the northern continent. See if you can find a good place to set down.
TRAVIS: Yes, sir.
T'POL: Captain. There are a number of protocols you may want to consider.
ARCHER: Protocols.
T'POL: Vulcan ships would begin by sending automated probes down to collect more detailed scans. If the planet proved to be Minshara-class, we would then conduct a geophysical survey from orbit.
TRAVIS: Minshara-class?
HOSHI: Suitable for humanoid life.
ARCHER: How long would all that take?
T'POL: Six or seven days.
TUCKER: (still at the door) You expect us to sit up here for a week while probes have all the fun?
T'POL: This planet has been here a long time. It will still be here in seven days.
ARCHER: I understand that you have a more cautious approach, but we didn't come out here to tip-toe around. (to Tucker) Get the pod ready. (he leaves) I'd like you to put together the survey team. I assume that's not a violation of protocol?

Gawd, that speech.

This is how I'm gonna think of ENT from now on: Seasons 1-2, and "TATV" are all in Riker's holodeck. I kinda enjoyed S3 from what I remember, at least I recall it a lot more than what came before. Then there's S4.

Another reason why ENT is better than VOY: It's shorter. I still haven't gotten past my DS9/VOY airdate project. I think I last left it in the middle of the 1996-1997 season. I thought it would be easy to get through because I always had DS9 to fall back on, but then I have to watch bullshit like "Coda" and it kills my mood. It was always on and off for a long time, but I think I'm officially done with it. No need to go through the Delta Quadrant. At least with TNG/DS9 they subtly played off one another like when Riker talks to Quark, who's still being held by security for selling the Maquis weapons. That was kind of stuff was fun when watching the shows back to back. The DS9/VOY only just solidifies what I already knew.

I'm also going to hold off on DS9 for awhile too. Assuming CBS eventually gives the go on an HD restoration, I look forward to revisiting for the first time in that form.

Tubes wrote:

STAR TREK IV: THE VOYAGE HOME

By all accounts, TVH shouldn't work. Instead of following up two dramatic sci-fi operas that constantly upped the stakes with more of the same, we get HOW I TRAVELED BACK IN TIME AND SAVED THE WHALES. It's just so damned funny, though. Everything in the 80's is stereotypical 80's-ness and downright hilarious. Again, Nimoy juggles the cast and gives everyone responsibilities that suits their characters. It's also amusing how fast and loose everyone is with the concept of time travel and changing the future, especially with how the same subject is treated in the TNG era shows. Perhaps trying to save the earth from a giant wood pellet in space that evaporates water raises the stakes a bit.

It's a good thing the story relies less on SFX than the past three films, because all technical efforts take a leap back here. Photography is bland, space and other special effects aren't nearly as dynamic as either TWOK or TSFS, and the musical score is essentially ambient noise. The saving grace is the movie doesn't rely on them and thus can get away with mediocre peripherals. Essentially, the anti-TMP.

1. STAR TREK II: THE WRATH OF KHAN
2. STAR TREK III: THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK
3. STAR TREK IV: THE VOYAGE HOME
4. STAR TREK: THE MOTION PICTURE


"Ah, the 80's. Pastel colors! Leg Warmers! Cocaine!"

Spock using the 'neck pinch' on the asshole on the bus is a definite highlight.