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 Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-)

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SarahN
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PostSubject: Re: Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-)   Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-) - Page 7 EmptyThu Mar 26, 2015 7:28 am

So it came as predicted. Can't say I'm surprised really, I'm sure Clarkson was well aware of this even before he backpedaled Sunday. Up to a point I understand his fans, they see Clarkson the good egg in him and want their show. But there is also Clarkson the arse, the unprofessional diva whose success got to his head and who let others suffer.

I wonder, would people have been as understanding if Tymon hadn't been professional about it and beat Clarkson till he looked like piles at the wrong end? This is not just about professional conduct, it's just as much a thing of character. Clarkson didn't pass that test, no reason to paint him as the victim here. He's long enough in the business to know he was on the watchlist. If he couldn't play to the most basic rules it was time for him to call it a day anyway.

But surely he'll find a new home at Fox. Start Uber Gear and be sponsored by Uber (and maybe Peugeot, if they have a sense of humour). If he's still successful there they may grant him his own whipping boy. I'm sorry, I'm really vitriolic about this. I can't believe a grown adult - and one so beloved by his fans at that - was really so on edge, on the verge of falling apart. I know it's absurd for me to judge him since I don't know Clarkson. Did it really have to come to this? I think not. Perhaps an extended break is just what Clarkson needs now.
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PostSubject: Re: Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-)   Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-) - Page 7 EmptyThu Mar 26, 2015 8:28 am

Erica Ambler wrote:
You're all talking shit.

What about when Deputy Prime Minster John Prescott punched a heckler a few years back? Did he lose his job? Of course not.

And why is this any different to when Clarkson punched Piers Morgan? Well, apart from the BBC losing its biggest star and around £100m a year.

As I said here a few days ago, this is more about managerial incompetence than anything else. Meanwhile in the non-subidized real world, Rupert Murdoch tweets:

“How stupid can BBC be in firing Jeremy Clarkson? Funny man with great expertise and huge following.”

All of this does not change the fact that if he had kept his hands to himself, he would still have a job.

I thought personal responsibility was also a thing in the "real world", but perhaps I am mistaken?

Actually, based on the bank bailout, it is not. My mistake.
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PostSubject: Re: Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-)   Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-) - Page 7 EmptyThu Mar 26, 2015 9:25 am

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PostSubject: Re: Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-)   Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-) - Page 7 EmptyThu Mar 26, 2015 10:23 am

Erica Ambler wrote:

My definition of personal responsibility is that this was a dispute between two grown men and should have been settled as such. Like men of old.

Well his victim is not the one who reported the assault, so...
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PostSubject: Re: Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-)   Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-) - Page 7 EmptyThu Mar 26, 2015 10:26 am

For me there's nothing manly about two guys beating the shit out of each other in reality. Much less about one guy doing such to the other. But that may be due to my female perspective. If you think different I don't think I'm able to explain it better than this. Women look for character and authority, fisticuffs in reality signal the direct opposite of these qualities to most of us.

20 per cent, wasn't that even much higher in recent years? Anyway, it's beside the point. Here one guy hit his coworker. It's a guy with a history of sorts and he was doubtlessly warned before. The moment Clarkson's fist flew his job was gone. The only one to blame is he himself. What was he thinking? Precisely nothing, that's what. I'm baffled how some can find all sorts of excuses for this man. Perhaps we also ought to consider Clarkson was lucky he didn't do any lasting damage. That's always in the cards and there are more than a few cases of severely disabled victims of beatings. Would there still be support for Clarkson if the producer had fallen and broke his neck? But Clarkson's of course entitled to a hot meal. And if he doesn't get it he can take it out on whoever he thinks is responsible? Not in my book.

I'm only sorry for the fans, they are the ones who've been let down really. My guy's two boys are great fans and they planned on seeing one of the shows, won't happen now.
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PostSubject: Re: Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-)   Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-) - Page 7 EmptyThu Mar 26, 2015 10:29 am

Erica Ambler wrote:

That’s a very partial way of looking at it. Maybe if Clarkson hadn’t been forced by the BBC to film and script 12 Top Gear episodes rather than the usual eight when it's well known he’s as ill as Sharky’s mum? Maybe if he hadn’t worked a 12 hour day outdoors without adequate catering (usually the producer’s responsibility)? Maybe if this had been left to the two adults to work out between them? Maybe then he’d have a job and the BBC wouldn't have critically damaged its biggest programme.

Thousands of people work harder than Clarkson whilst ill every single day, yet most of them manage not to assault a co-worker or subordinate.
I honestly don't care enough about Top Gear or Clarkson to have any strong feelings about this either way, but I am baffled by the notion that physical violence should just be brushed over. It's hardly the end of the world for Clarkson. He is financially independent and the millions that signed his petition almost guarantee that another network will offer him a job to tap into that market.
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PostSubject: Re: Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-)   Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-) - Page 7 EmptyThu Mar 26, 2015 10:31 am

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PostSubject: Re: Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-)   Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-) - Page 7 EmptyThu Mar 26, 2015 10:35 am

Erica Ambler wrote:
Salomé wrote:
Erica Ambler wrote:

My definition of personal responsibility is that this was a dispute between two grown men and should have been settled as such. Like men of old.

Well his victim is not the one who reported the assault, so...

Clarkson reported it to the BBC, as his employment contract obliges him to do, but only after Oisin Tymon repeatedly refused to accept his apology.

From the few articles I read about the incident, Tymon went to the hospital but did not file a formal complaint.
I also don't see why a person should be obliged to accept an apology from an individual who has physically assaulted him (or her).
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PostSubject: Re: Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-)   Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-) - Page 7 EmptyThu Mar 26, 2015 10:36 am

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PostSubject: Re: Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-)   Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-) - Page 7 EmptyThu Mar 26, 2015 10:37 am

Erica Ambler wrote:
Salomé wrote:
Thousands of people work harder than Clarkson whilst ill every single day, yet most of them manage not to assault a co-worker or subordinate.

I wonder if that's true. Most people have physical altercations in the course of their careers. It's just most are dealt with in a sensible manner with minimal publicity.

The problem with saying we should treat Clarkson as just another individual is that he isn't. He's a huge wealth creator. What he receives himself is nothing compared to what her earns for the BBC.

It's about time this society relearnt to differentiate between the producers and the consumers; the wealth creators and the takers.

So are you arguing that a certain class of people should be given free license to assault another, say, subclass?

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PostSubject: Re: Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-)   Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-) - Page 7 EmptyThu Mar 26, 2015 10:52 am

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PostSubject: Re: Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-)   Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-) - Page 7 EmptyThu Mar 26, 2015 11:00 am

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Salomé
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PostSubject: Re: Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-)   Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-) - Page 7 EmptyThu Mar 26, 2015 11:05 am

Erica Ambler wrote:
Salomé wrote:
So are you arguing that a certain class of people should be given free license to assault another, say, subclass?

Subclass? Let me tell you, a BBC producer's salary and benefits has to be seen to be believed. It's much higher than most private media companies would pay.

What I'm saying is that the private sector - and a few very high achieving individuals - create most of the wealth.

They're the source of the tax revenues the State is so busy spending on its social justice and social reengineering programmes. You need free enterprise and the rich to pay for your socialist utopia and their own downfall.

"My" socialist utopia? ROTFLMAO

Not sure how we got all the way down there from a discussion that is really about whether or not a creative should be allowed to punch a producer, if said creative brings in a lot of money for his company.
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PostSubject: Re: Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-)   Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-) - Page 7 EmptyThu Mar 26, 2015 11:07 am

Erica Ambler wrote:

Clarkson is 54 and suffers badly from arthritis. The last time he threw a punch he broke a finger because he'd no idea how to hit. The real question in my mind is why didn't the young and fit producer stand up for himself?

Because it's generally a bad idea to punch your boss if you want to keep your job? Your mileage may vary, of course.
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PostSubject: Re: Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-)   Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-) - Page 7 EmptyThu Mar 26, 2015 11:13 am

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PostSubject: Re: Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-)   Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-) - Page 7 EmptyThu Mar 26, 2015 11:15 am

Erica Ambler wrote:
Salomé wrote:
Erica Ambler wrote:

Clarkson is 54 and suffers badly from arthritis. The last time he threw a punch he broke a finger because he'd no idea how to hit. The real question in my mind is why didn't the young and fit producer stand up for himself?

Because it's generally a bad idea to punch your boss if you want to keep your job? Your mileage may vary, of course.

Clarkson wasn't his boss. Both were BBC employees.

Maybe you should argue about something you know.

And I see we have descended all the way down to the realm of ad hominem. Okay.
I wish I could say that this has been fun, but it's hasn't
In any case, I never meant to devote this much time to Jeremy Clarkson. ROTFLMAO
It's back to the simple pleasure of happily ignoring his existence for me.
Toodles.
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PostSubject: Re: Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-)   Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-) - Page 7 EmptyThu Mar 26, 2015 11:15 am

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PostSubject: Re: Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-)   Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-) - Page 7 EmptyThu Mar 26, 2015 11:16 am

Erica Ambler wrote:
Salomé wrote:


"My" socialist utopia? ROTFLMAO

Not sure how we got all the way down there from a discussion that is really about whether or not a creative should be allowed to punch a producer, if said creative brings in a lot of money for his company.

Probably when you brought the banking crisis into it a few posts ago.

And noone is saying a creative should be allowed to punch a producer. I'm questioning whether it's necessary to destroy a multimillion pound business over a trifling incident.

Socialists say yes.

Your continued insistence to refer to me as a socialist does not make it a fact.

But I'm done with this discussion if you are going to stoop to your usual tactic of personal attacks.

I don't even care about any of this nonsense to begin with.
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SarahN
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PostSubject: Re: Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-)   Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-) - Page 7 EmptyThu Mar 26, 2015 11:30 am

In general I doubt we long more for protection than the average male. And certainty, that's already implied with character and authority. Both very much do exist. Also this has got nothing to do with effeminacy, it's a question of civilisation. The difference is obvious. Or should be, really.

Believe me, I'm already cutting Clarkson more than his fair share of slack. I already admitted I dislike him and also that I have no right to judge him as a person since I only know of his public persona - like everybody else here, I trust? Your argument seems to be he'd deserve a different set of rules because of his assumed status as wealth creator. For one thing I'd say a TV show is primarily a team effort and no matter how outstanding his position in Top Gear was, he always needed the team to produce the show and create this wealth you speak of. As primus-inter-pares in the Top Gear team nobody should have been more aware of it than Clarkson. And on a sober day he probably would have been aware of it, after all he was the soul of the team and the show. Keeping calm and making a show of good spirits, that's what his response should have been. Just as you say, he had already experience with violence, that's why I'm sure he was warned in no uncertain terms the last time. His mistake was he didn't see that the next time was already waiting around the corner that day. That's what is troubling about it.

But I also don't subscribe to the notion his status would allow him to be judged by different standards than everybody else. And not resorting to physical violence is such a standard, plain and simple. You may perhaps feel as a man you are able to deal with physical assaults on your own. But what about those who can't, are we supposed to just let them take it then? That can't be the answer. In a modern society the answer is simply not to accept violence. Until recently most of us agreed to this. What ever happened that made us question this basic agreement?
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PostSubject: Re: Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-)   Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-) - Page 7 EmptyThu Mar 26, 2015 1:22 pm

SarahN wrote:

I'm only sorry for the fans, they are the ones who've been let down really. My guy's two boys are great fans and they planned on seeing one of the shows, won't happen now.

This is the real point, on the one hand the BBC is there to provide viewer satisfaction, on the other it is an employer like any other that has to manage a highly paid and often rather eclectic workforce....here the two collide and implode - the result is all but inevitable yet conversely to no ones real satisfaction. In Star Trek parlance the needs of the one here outweigh the needs of the many, though it can also be fairly argued that once it went public there was no precedent that could have resolved it any other way....The real thing that might have made a difference is a sense of proportion.. a chance the media and our overtly literal society rapidly made impossible to consider.
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PostSubject: Re: Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-)   Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-) - Page 7 EmptyThu Mar 26, 2015 2:39 pm

Proportion, that's a sensible thing, no doubt about it. Today of course everything tends to be all or nothing, black or white, especially in the media. We are all affected by this, the pressure on the players is enormous. Perhaps a step back is also a chance to take a breather for Clarkson. By all means it should not have come to this. Still, within the week there is going to be another scandal. I'm sure Clarkson will move on, we all will.
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PostSubject: Re: Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-)   Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-) - Page 7 EmptyThu Mar 26, 2015 2:57 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-)   Top Gear (2002-2015) Phase II (2016-) - Page 7 EmptyThu Mar 26, 2015 3:31 pm

I have zero interest in that show.
Not sure if self-righteousness is a requirement for that to be true.
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