Mad Men

Vesper wrote:

Could someone expand on why they think season four and five (or one or the other) are improvements on the first three? I know it's a common view, but it personally escapes me. I'm interested in the other perspective. What makes them better?

I don't think season four is much of an improvement, but I do think season five is the best season of the show.

MAD MEN is at its best when it's like an Edward Hopper painting come to life. One reason I prefer the first season to the three that follow is that it manages to have a stronger sense of dread, a keener sense of existential despair. In seasons 2 through 4, that comes through only in bits and spurts (and often feels a bit forced when it does). But the fifth season recovers that pungent sadness and, in doing so, returns to what I find most appealing about MAD MEN. The dull ache that the characters have tried to drown out with booze, work, and romance over the past four seasons becomes acute pain in the fifth season.

Interesting. I was under the impression that MAD MEN was basically a comedy - not that I bought the DVD on that basis, I bought it because I keep reading that it's excellent and if it's as good as it's cracked up to be then I don't really care about its genre or tone. "An Edward Hopper painting come to life" would suit me down to the ground.

Anyway, looking forward to seeing it.

Loomis wrote:

Interesting. I was under the impression that MAD MEN was basically a comedy - not that I bought the DVD on that basis, I bought it because I keep reading that it's excellent and if it's as good as it's cracked up to be then I don't really care about its genre or tone.

MAD MEN has a lot of comedy throughout, but it's primarily a drama.

Loomis wrote:

"An Edward Hopper painting come to life" would suit me down to the ground.

Unfortunately, MAD MEN doesn't consistently achieve that, but the moments where it does makes everything else worth it.

Harmsway wrote:

MAD MEN has a lot of comedy throughout, but it's primarily a drama.

I see. Like THE SOPRANOS (probably my all-time favourite show), I suppose. Of course, MAD MEN's Matthew Weiner was a writer and producer on the final two seasons of THE SOPRANOS, which I'd say are by far the darkest seasons of that show, albeit that they still have their share of amusing moments and funny lines.

Harmsway wrote:

Loomis wrote:

Interesting. I was under the impression that MAD MEN was basically a comedy - not that I bought the DVD on that basis, I bought it because I keep reading that it's excellent and if it's as good as it's cracked up to be then I don't really care about its genre or tone.

MAD MEN has a lot of comedy throughout, but it's primarily a drama.

Loomis wrote:

"An Edward Hopper painting come to life" would suit me down to the ground.

Unfortunately, MAD MEN doesn't consistently achieve that, but the moments where it does makes everything else worth it.

I don't really get into sitcoms, but MAD MEN's humor I really like. And when Roger's around, it's a comedy.

As for the second point, the show may not always reach Everest heights, but at least there has never been a bad episode. IMHO. There have been a few subplots that have been not very interesting to me, though. I don't care for the teacher in S3, but it's more that I don't care for her. I like that Don is being self-destructive in banging his daughter's school teacher who lives near his house.

Saw the first two episodes of season one yesterday and thought they were just okay. I don't feel grabbed yet (not by a long chalk), but I guess these things need to be given time. It took two or three episodes for me to get into THE SOPRANOS, which initially left me cold.

Okay. Four episodes under my belt now and it's beginning to work for me.

Season one really gets rolling around episode six, "Babylon". That episode, particularly the last few minutes, was where I really started to sit up and pay attention to the show.

Quote :

I don't think season four is much of an improvement, but I do think season five is the best season of the show.

MAD MEN is at its best when it's like an Edward Hopper painting come to life. One reason I prefer the first season to the three that follow is that it manages to have a stronger sense of dread, a keener sense of existential despair. In seasons 2 through 4, that comes through only in bits and spurts (and often feels a bit forced when it does). But the fifth season recovers that pungent sadness and, in doing so, returns to what I find most appealing about MAD MEN. The dull ache that the characters have tried to drown out with booze, work, and romance over the past four seasons becomes acute pain in the fifth season.

Interesting. I enjoy season one the most for similar reasons (I know the Edward Hopper inspiration without being that familar with Edward Hopper ). The above mentioned episode with the montage to 'Babylon' at the end; Betty shooting the pigeons; Roger's heart attack; Pete's entrapment in his marriage; Peggy's frustration and bitterness; the spectre of Don's past and how far he would go to protect it (not that its my favourite storyline, but there was an edge to it in the first season that it lacked afterwards). And I think the end of the season in 'The Wheel' with Betty gone and Don on the stairs is just perfect.

I haven't rewatched season 5 yet, and it does take me two sittings to really digest the show (I loathed season 3 the first go around but rank it second at the moment). So when I revisit it I will keep this in mind.

Loomis wrote:

Okay. Four episodes under my belt now and it's beginning to work for me.

Yeah, it's around there that the show really picks up.

As for S4 and S5. Well, I love S5, especially from "Signal 30" to "Commissions and Fees". I'm still not sure what to make of "The Phantom". After that really heavy run of episodes, and especially after two episodes that are utterly devastating, it feels a little underpowered. I mean in that I'm not sure if it really delivers on it's central theme. We've had these huge dramatic fireworks and we get this rather sober episode in which so many of these characters have their own deep desires. And I think of Don's line, "What is happiness? It's a moment before you need more happiness." I get the idea. I like the idea. I'm not sure if it works as well as it should.

Maybe when I see S6 it'll put "The Phantom" into a better perspective in the overall scheme of things. It sets the stage very well (at least for me) for what's to come.

I got off track there. I look at S1-S3 as "early MAD MEN." And I think a change of direction was needed after S3, and I like the direction in which they went. S4, in light of S5, isn't my favorite, but I do like it. The S3 finale drops an atom bomb on the show's status quo, and Don has to start over. And I really like his journey in S4. It's my favorite thing about the season. The way he starts at the bottom; spending his holidays alone, getting turned down by women, paying a hooker to slap him in the face. And it starts to turn around in the middle episode, "The Suitcase", which is one of four or five of my favorite episodes of the series.

I like how S4 shook things up. The Draper marriage couldn't go on. I think the new office set really brings the characters firmly into the 60's. And I like how the stakes are raised by having them run a fledgling new agency. It adds a whole new dimension to the show, especially as Don has to take more responsibility.

Something I like about S5 is that it almost feels like the beginning of "pay off" from the first four seasons. All of these characters are now noticeably aging, and entering a time when the social dynamic is about to be turned on it's head from just a few year prior. I hope the show maintains the kind of darkness from S5 as the older characters see their old cherished world disappear around them.

That was rambling, sorry.

I would agree with most of that, though. S5 is my favourite season. However no matter the season, I must admit I far prefer the "work" related storylines to the "Draper personal" stories.

Fairbairn-Sykes wrote:

I would agree with most of that, though. S5 is my favourite season. However no matter the season, I must admit I far prefer the "work" related storylines to the "Draper personal" stories.

By and large I probably do as well. Though I really like Anna.

Most of what I am eager to see in S6 is office-related. I like that it really feels like a business, and I like how hardnosed the show and the characters are. I'm not a Randian, but I really do love whenever Cooper shows up as the unsentimental businessman. Sometimes I wonder if he's really as eccentric as people think he is, or if it's partly an act. Partly at most, because the guy is eccentric. But he can become so wonderfully cold-blooded and formidable at the drop of a hat.

My favorite character has become Pete Campbell, no contest. I say he's become, and I mean in terms of rewatching the show he's my favorite from the start. I can't wait to see where his story goes in S6.

I'll say again a few things I'd love to see. I've love to see the second (or third) Draper marriage go down in flames, with plenty of empty, awkward time before they commit to leaving each other. I want to see Joan on the rise, also financially. Maybe buy a house. I'd love to see Henry and Don work together, with the agency on some political campaign. That'll drive Betty up the wall. And I want to see Pete living it up in the city, being a sleazebag. I wouldn't be surprised if he and Trudy eventually get divorced. Though it would be bad for business, so keep Pete in the marriage to keep his father-in-law's accounts.

Yeah I see Joan on the rise and I like it. She's almost 40, so she's gotta move beyond her "unattainable sexpot" persona, and I like "high business power woman" Joan. I've always felt that in theory Joan could do every job at SCDP better than whoever is doing it.

As for Cooper, he is indeed eccentric, but I definitely think he exaggerates it on purpose so people underestimate him. He's cunning. Look at how he sat on his knowledge about Don for three years and then picked the perfect time to spring it.

My big curiosity about S6 is, of course, when is it set? Late 67 to 68? Summer 68?

My pet theory is that one of the reasons they moved Peggy to another agency was so that she could come up with the 1968 "you've come a long way, baby" Virginia Slims women's cigarettes tagline, without undoing SCDP's divorce from tobacco. It's just too iconic and too perfect a line for Peggy's whole history to pass up.

Fairbairn-Sykes wrote:

My pet theory is that one of the reasons they moved Peggy to another agency was so that she could come up with the 1968 "you've come a long way, baby" Virginia Slims women's cigarettes tagline, without undoing SCDP's divorce from tobacco. It's just too iconic and too perfect a line for Peggy's whole history to pass up.

I read an interview with Weiner where that came up (I forget which interview), and he said he wouldn't do that because it was a real campaign done by a real person. (Wiki says the Leo Burnett agency)

Whether it goes that way or not it would be perfect for Peggy.

Thats weird because he has had a lot of campaigns done by Sterling Cooper be real campaigns done by real people, all the way back to "it's toasted!" in the pilot.

I forgot to mention that I want to see, and I'm sure this will happen, a rivalry between Don and Peggy. To what extent it will be, we'll see. But it's obviously going to happen. I'd like to see them vie for the same account, or even see CGC poach one from SCD_.

I like Ted Chaough. He's a smart guy. I really like the interview scene between him and Peggy. I hope he's going to be the show a lot more, which he probably will be since Peggy will be working with him. I saw some pics online of Peggy, Chaough, Pete, and Ken all at the same place.

Fairbairn-Sykes wrote:

Thats weird because he has had a lot of campaigns done by Sterling Cooper be real campaigns done by real people, all the way back to "it's toasted!" in the pilot.

It's probably more because it was suggested by someone in the fan community (or tv critic community). Weiner does not do fanservice. It's one of his best qualities as a showrunner.

Well, I've finished the first season. I found it tremendously entertaining and will certainly continue with MAD MEN. That said, I wouldn't call it truly great television. It's very, very good indeed, and definitely far better than most of what's out there, but ultimately I don't see any great depth or richness to it. No great performances so far, or any complex and compelling characters. No edge-of-seat storylines, and indeed nothing that's particularly gripping or moving - not an awful lot "happens". Don't get me wrong: it's good, extremely good (and I gather that the first season isn't the best), but unless I see some substantial improvements in the coming seasons I'll be unable to declare that MAD MEN knocks it outta the park and into the realm of true genius and television history. It isn't THE SOPRANOS.

I only loved MAD MEN on a second viewing (and on subsequent viewings). It's certainly glacial in it's development and rewards more than one viewing. It really isn't about edge-of-your-seat stories. The "plots" don't really matter so much. It's a show that sorta sinks in.

But no great performances? I think the acting is really great on the show. Jon Hamm really dominates. Which probably opens it up for a joke.

The phrase that summed it up best for me was a critic who said something like "you don't so much watch Mad Men as you sit back and let it waft over you."

The White Tuxedo wrote:

I only loved MAD MEN on a second viewing (and on subsequent viewings). It's certainly glacial in it's development and rewards more than one viewing. It really isn't about edge-of-your-seat stories. The "plots" don't really matter so much. It's a show that sorta sinks in.

But no great performances? I think the acting is really great on the show. Jon Hamm really dominates. Which probably opens it up for a joke.

Oh, I think the performances are very good. I like Hamm very much, and also January Jones, Vincent Kartheiser and Elisabeth Moss. The general standard of acting on MAD MEN is very high. I just don't think it measures up to true greatness. It doesn't help that all the characters seem a bit, well, generic. In this first season, only Draper seems in any way rounded and fleshed-out, but even then he's still somewhat two-dimensional. There's nothing about the character or the performance that makes me feel I'm watching something genuinely special.

As for "plot", I don't demand it if the show is sufficiently entertaining (which MAD MEN most definitely is). And, yes, MAD MEN is indeed "a show that sorta sinks in", which is fine, but it isn't quite sunk into me so deeply that it's knocked me off my feet. But perhaps the next seasons will take things up a few notches. In any event, I'm looking forward to more MAD MEN.

Well, a few of us here (Harms, Sykes, and myself at least) like S5 most of all. That's a minority view, by the way. S2 has generally been my least favorite, but it's still good television.

I still think MAD MEN is better on a rewatch, when you know what happens and you can see things in perspective and see things that maybe went past you on a first viewing.

I'd also call the show "stoic". It's certainly not in your face and waving it's arms around like most TV shows. Or maybe "subdued"? "Subtle". Something like that.

As far as I'm concerned, the show gets better with each season.

Didn't realize that those believing S5 is the best is a minority. Then again this is really the only place I ever talk about MAD MEN. Is there a premiere date yet for S6? I wanna do a countdown, watch one episode a day, viewing "The Phantom" the day before the premiere.

There is speculation about April: http://thestir.cafemom.com/entertainment/149303/mad_men_season_6_premiere

The speculation about it airing after THE WALKING DEAD ends and before BREAKING BAD starts seems pretty sound to me. All of the official stuff has said Spring 2013, which could certainly change, but I don't see why it would as S6 has been in production since October and they must surely have episodes more or less ready to air.

Sounds about right. Wonder if Pete's hair receded more this time.