Posts : 5542 Member Since : 2011-03-14 Location : 'Straya
Subject: Re: Bond 25 (2019) Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:14 am
FieldsMan wrote:
The idea that Dalton was the "sexless" Bond always fascinated me. His second film shows two birds fighting over him at the end. In the other films where both main Bond girls survive (Honey and Sylvia, Tanya and Sylvia, Octopussy and Magda), it's never been a point of conflict.
Perhaps the other element to that assessment is that Dalton is the only Bond to never really give off that horny Lothario vibe. His Bond never overtly uses his sex appeal to get what he wants. Good looking rooster though he is, Timbo never really struts around like he's ready to schlong anything in his path.
Mr. Kiss Kiss Bang Bang 00 Agent
Posts : 8500 Member Since : 2010-05-12 Location : Strawberry Fields
Subject: Re: Bond 25 (2019) Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:12 am
Good point.
Kath 'R'
Posts : 354 Member Since : 2017-12-22
Subject: Re: Bond 25 (2019) Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:17 pm
hegottheboot wrote:
Ouch! :)
To be fair I can understand you on GE vs. LTK because I'll be the first to admit it took me years to fully appreciate LTK due to the budget cuts/80's derivative styles and lower key flavor. I think it has a stronger narrative base but GE has all the gloss and grandeur. Also I cherish GE, but think LTK is the last gasp of the old series being firmly rooted in itself as opposed to being reactionary to modern society. Does that make any sense or am I babbling again?
I guess I'm a sucker for actually strong female roles where they can grumble a bit and act human in addition to being imperfect. That and Pam's Isthmus makeover ...and being reintroduced with the shotgun under the bar table...I actually felt Pam was the first girl since the 60's films to really feel in line with the role in the films. I quite like Natalya (Goldeneye 64 horror memories aside) but she and the following regular Bond girl characters have always seemed to have taken a backseat to everything else and merely been present only when the plot devices require them. That may be just me of course. I really began to like her more after reading her fleshed out characterization in Gardner's novelization.
Many bring up Dalton's tenure as being sexless and humorless. Just as many think the actors themselves make all the decisions and only the lead actor matters. What these people miss and refuse to notice in Dalton's two films is that they are some of the only times where the rampant sex is replaced with actual romance befitting the story itself. That and the fact that the humor is beautifully and realistically played that perfectly fits the ongoing events. The romance aspect was a masterstroke on the production team's part in responding to the AIDS crisis and growing public discourse over the nature of Bond...so of course people didn't give the new Bond a real chance and so...
No, I actually agree with you. I think that the Brosnan area is the first attempt to translate Bond into present-day culture. You have the focus on contemporary problems, like the oil pipelines in TWINE as well as a strong heading towards unnatural, futuristic technology like the whole of DAD.
Someone else has pointed out that LTK was most romantic, too, because Bond makes sure to find a partner for the one because he goes after the other. Another way to see it and I like it.
[quote=CJB]Perhaps the other element to that assessment is that Dalton is the only Bond to never really give off that horny Lothario vibe. His Bond never overtly uses his sex appeal to get what he wants. Good looking rooster though he is, Timbo never really struts around like he's ready to schlong anything in his path.[/quote]
Agreed.
Dalton has a completely different charisma.
FieldsMan wrote:
Again, I think a case could be made for the 90s Bond films being the last gasp of the old series. As I've said before, M's comments in GE are simply her opinion of Bond (and Bond has his own for her) and doesn't expect him to change. That's continued into TND, where she realises he could pump Paris for information. By contrast, M's "how many is that now" in QOS and Bond moping around because of it is definitely a change of direction (sex is bad, kids), and definitely the wrong direction.
What do you say to that above mentioned jump into modernity? I still think that the Brosnan era is the break (and that's no bad thing in itself, is it, because at some point "Bond" had to change...).
Kath 'R'
Posts : 354 Member Since : 2017-12-22
Subject: Re: Bond 25 (2019) Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:18 pm
Sorry, edit function is gone again.
Guest Guest
Subject: Re: Bond 25 (2019) Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:33 pm
Kath wrote:
I think that the Brosnan area is the first attempt to translate Bond into present-day culture.You have the focus on contemporary problems, like the oil pipelines in TWINE as well as a strong heading towards unnatural, futuristic technology like the whole of DAD.
The Bond films have had contemporary references from the very beginning. The US space programme and Goya’s stolen painting in Dr No, The Beatles in Goldfinger, and The Great Train Robbery in Thunderball. There’s lots of others such as the new fangled hovercraft in DAF. the digital watch in LALD and the Space Shuttle in Moonraker.
Contemporary problems too, such as the rise of Japan in YOLT, the energy crisis and RMS Queen Elizabeth fire in TMWTGG, and and the war on drugs in LTK.
Kath 'R'
Posts : 354 Member Since : 2017-12-22
Subject: Re: Bond 25 (2019) Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:57 pm
Erica Ambler wrote:
Kath wrote:
I think that the Brosnan area is the first attempt to translate Bond into present-day culture.You have the focus on contemporary problems, like the oil pipelines in TWINE as well as a strong heading towards unnatural, futuristic technology like the whole of DAD.
The Bond films have had contemporary references from the very beginning. The US space programme and Goya’s stolen painting in Dr No, The Beatles in Goldfinger, and The Great Train Robbery in Thunderball. There’s lots of others such as the new fangled hovercraft in DAF. the digital watch in LALD and the Space Shuttle in Moonraker.
Contemporary problems too, such as the rise of Japan in YOLT, the energy crisis and RMS Queen Elizabeth fire in TMWTGG, and and the war on drugs in LTK.
Ok. But something's different with the Brosnan era. I think the contemporary aspects just seem to carry more weight. And it's the style and tone of narrative. I feels modernised in a way...It introduces a very different kind of humour and a very different Bond. And a new M. And the argument between Bond and M becomes different...Bond has overstepped rules in LTK and the argument seems justified whereas M seems to be hostile towards Bond in GE. Oh, and is the Craig-Bond chided because he seduces the women? I think he is chided because he gets them killed; but I would have to check again to be sure.
Gravity's Silhouette Potential 00 Agent
Posts : 3994 Member Since : 2011-04-15 Location : Inside my safe space
Subject: Re: Bond 25 (2019) Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:30 am
We've gone from Chew Me to #MeToo. Stop the world I want to get off.
CJB 00 Agent
Posts : 5542 Member Since : 2011-03-14 Location : 'Straya
Subject: Re: Bond 25 (2019) Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:57 am
#MeChew should be Bond 25's title.
Blunt Instrument 00 Agent
Posts : 6402 Member Since : 2011-03-20 Location : Propping up the bar
Subject: Re: Bond 25 (2019) Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:06 am
Kath wrote:
Erica Ambler wrote:
Kath wrote:
I think that the Brosnan area is the first attempt to translate Bond into present-day culture.You have the focus on contemporary problems, like the oil pipelines in TWINE as well as a strong heading towards unnatural, futuristic technology like the whole of DAD.
The Bond films have had contemporary references from the very beginning. The US space programme and Goya’s stolen painting in Dr No, The Beatles in Goldfinger, and The Great Train Robbery in Thunderball. There’s lots of others such as the new fangled hovercraft in DAF. the digital watch in LALD and the Space Shuttle in Moonraker.
Contemporary problems too, such as the rise of Japan in YOLT, the energy crisis and RMS Queen Elizabeth fire in TMWTGG, and and the war on drugs in LTK.
Ok. But something's different with the Brosnan era. I think the contemporary aspects just seem to carry more weight. And it's the style and tone of narrative. I feels modernised in a way...It introduces a very different kind of humour and a very different Bond. And a new M. And the argument between Bond and M becomes different...Bond has overstepped rules in LTK and the argument seems justified whereas M seems to be hostile towards Bond in GE. Oh, and is the Craig-Bond chided because he seduces the women? I think he is chided because he gets them killed; but I would have to check again to be sure.
M's 'See what your charm does, James?' to Bond in QOS as they stand beside Fields' body is definite 'MUST you?' chiding.
Guest Guest
Subject: Re: Bond 25 (2019) Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:43 am
Gravity's Silhouette wrote:
We've gone from Chew Me to #MeToo. Stop the world I want to get off.
Interesting take on 007 and The War Against Men (my words not theirs) in today's Grauniad. Apart from the vapid suggestion that Tarantino would make a good writer-director for Bond not much that I disagree with. As for Von Trier taking the helm, that would be hilarious; spolier: Bond gets his cock cut off in the final act.
Surely some of this corporate drama, lack of distributor, two floating scripts and/or lack of interest in the role would drive Craig out at some point. If not, his career really must be in tatters if he has to hold on to the only lucrative role he'd rather slash his wrists over.
Surely some disagreement will arise if Craig wants Boyle's script, but Eon want Purvis and Wade's, which could happen, considering Bab's stronghold on the series (giving directors little room to breathe, though that's changed since 2006)... Though if a flame still lights Bab's shamelessly transparent lust for Craig, then maybe she'll sacrifice what she wants in order for him to stay.
Don't mind me, just thinking aloud.
CJB 00 Agent
Posts : 5542 Member Since : 2011-03-14 Location : 'Straya
Subject: Re: Bond 25 (2019) Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:54 am
May as well write out Moneypenny completely. Depicting a woman being generally OK with flirting and innuendo is unacceptable in the age of #MeChew.
Kath 'R'
Posts : 354 Member Since : 2017-12-22
Subject: Re: Bond 25 (2019) Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:27 pm
Erica Ambler wrote:
Oh, and the article uses a nicely English bit of understatement to describe an all-out yet undeclared war: ‘the complex energy between men and women’.
Lovely.
I think he means emotions because it's mentioned in the context of Bond's reaction about Vesper's betrayal. He says it's Bond most emotional reaction and also Craig's most convincing portrayal (so we're back at CR, (de)construction and the manly tears, ) :
Ben Child in [i]The Guardian[/i] wrote:
[B]ut we should remember that the most crushingly emotive moment in Craig’s stint as the spy remains his reaction to the apparent betrayal of Eva Green’s Vesper Lynd in 2006’s Casino Royale. In that film, at his most raw and exposed, Craig was at his best. If Boyle can harness a little of the complex energy between men and women, he might leave the saga in an even more fascinating place than some of his more radical peers might have managed.
Where has the "bird with a wing down"-mythology gone? I am not keen on repeating myself, but Eco names Bond a man with "healing powers". If they do it right it will be compatible with Fleming.
Kath 'R'
Posts : 354 Member Since : 2017-12-22
Subject: Re: Bond 25 (2019) Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:32 pm
Blunt Instrument wrote:
Kath wrote:
Erica Ambler wrote:
Kath wrote:
I think that the Brosnan area is the first attempt to translate Bond into present-day culture.You have the focus on contemporary problems, like the oil pipelines in TWINE as well as a strong heading towards unnatural, futuristic technology like the whole of DAD.
The Bond films have had contemporary references from the very beginning. The US space programme and Goya’s stolen painting in Dr No, The Beatles in Goldfinger, and The Great Train Robbery in Thunderball. There’s lots of others such as the new fangled hovercraft in DAF. the digital watch in LALD and the Space Shuttle in Moonraker.
Contemporary problems too, such as the rise of Japan in YOLT, the energy crisis and RMS Queen Elizabeth fire in TMWTGG, and and the war on drugs in LTK.
Ok. But something's different with the Brosnan era. I think the contemporary aspects just seem to carry more weight. And it's the style and tone of narrative. I feels modernised in a way...It introduces a very different kind of humour and a very different Bond. And a new M. And the argument between Bond and M becomes different...Bond has overstepped rules in LTK and the argument seems justified whereas M seems to be hostile towards Bond in GE. Oh, and is the Craig-Bond chided because he seduces the women? I think he is chided because he gets them killed; but I would have to check again to be sure.
M's 'See what your charm does, James?' to Bond in QOS as they stand beside Fields' body is definite 'MUST you?' chiding.
"MUST you get her killed? She was an accountant. Not meant for field work (despite her unlucky name)..."
Hilly Administrator
Posts : 8077 Member Since : 2010-05-13 Location : Chez Hilly, the Cote d'Hampshire
Subject: Re: Bond 25 (2019) Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:18 pm
Salomé wrote:
BOND: I’m telling you right now, get in here.
BOND GIRL: What do we have to do here?
BOND: Nothing. I’m going to take a shower, you sit there and have a drink.
BOND GIRL: I don’t drink.
BOND: Then have a glass of water.
BOND GIRL: Can I stay on the bar?
BOND: No. You must come here now.
BOND GIRL: No…
BOND: Please?
BOND GIRL: No, I don’t want to.
BOND: I’m not doing anything with you, I promise. Now you’re embarrassing me.
BOND GIRL: I know, I don’t want to. I’m sorry, I cannot.
BOND: No, come in here.
BOND GIRL: No, yesterday was kind of aggressive for me.
BOND: I know—
BOND GIRL: I need to know a person to be touched.
BOND: I won’t do a thing.
BOND GIRL: I don’t want to be touched.
BOND: I won’t do a thing, please. I swear I won’t. Just sit with me. Don’t embarrass me in the hotel. I’m here all the time. Sit with me, I promise—
BOND GIRL: I know, but I don’t want to.
BOND: Please sit there. Please. One minute, I ask you.
BOND GIRL: No, I can’t.
BOND: Go to the bathroom.
BOND GIRL: Please, I don’t want to do something I don’t want to.
BOND: Go to the bathroom—Hey, come here. Listen to me—
BOND GIRL: I want to go downstairs.
BOND: I won’t do anything and you’ll never see me again after this. OK? That’s it. If you don’t—if you embarrass me in this hotel where I’m staying—
BOND GIRL: I’m not embarrassing you—
BOND: Just walk—
BOND GIRL: It’s just that I don’t feel comfortable.
BOND: Honey, don’t have a fight with me in the hallway.
BOND GIRL: It’s not nothing, it’s—
BOND: Please. I’m not gonna do anything. I swear on my children. Please come in. On everything. I’m a famous guy.
BOND GIRL: I’m, I’m feeling very uncomfortable right now.
BOND: Please come in. And one minute. And if you wanna leave when the guy comes with my jacket, you can go.
BOND GIRL: Why yesterday you touch my breast?
BOND: Oh, please. I’m sorry. Just come on in. I’m used to that.
BOND GIRL: You’re used to that?
BOND: Yes, come in.
BOND GIRL: No, but I’m not used to that.
BOND: I won’t do it again. Come on, sit here. Sit here for a minute, please?
BOND GIRL: No, I don’t want to.
BOND: If you do this now you will [unintelligible]. Now go. Bye. Never call me again. OK? I’m sorry, nice to have—I promise you I won’t do anything.
BOND GIRL: I know, but yesterday was too much for me.
BOND: The guy is coming. I will never do another thing to you. Five minutes. Don’t ruin your friendship with me for five minutes.
BOND GIRL: I know—but, it’s kind of, like, it’s too much for me. I can’t.
BOND: Please, you’re making a big scene here. Please.
BOND GIRL: No, but I wanna leave.
BOND: OK, bye. Thank you.
reading that makes me think the Bond of OHMSS would be stuffed nowadays.
Gravity's Silhouette Potential 00 Agent
Posts : 3994 Member Since : 2011-04-15 Location : Inside my safe space
Subject: Re: Bond 25 (2019) Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:23 am
Erica Ambler wrote:
Salomé wrote:
What exactly is a #MeToo Bond supposed to look like?
Dr No Means No
(Ethically sourced) Diamonds are Forever
The Spy Who Respected Me
etc ...
(with apologies to The Grauniad)
On It's Majesty's Secret Service
The Person With The Golden Gun
Guest Guest
Subject: Re: Bond 25 (2019) Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:44 am
Gravity's Silhouette wrote:
On It's Majesty's Secret Service
On Its Majesty's Secret Cervix.
Never Means Never.
Live And Let Live.
All purloined from The Grauniad.
Blunt Instrument 00 Agent
Posts : 6402 Member Since : 2011-03-20 Location : Propping up the bar
Subject: Re: Bond 25 (2019) Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:40 pm
From Russia With Mutual Respect
Octovagina
Guest Guest
Subject: Re: Bond 25 (2019) Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:57 pm
I understand the working title of Bond 25, ‘One In The Pink, One In The Stink’, has been scrapped.
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...and being reintroduced with the shotgun under the bar table...I actually felt Pam was the first girl since the 60's films to really feel in line with the role in the films. 
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