Riots Across England

Avarice wrote:

Not all the newspapers are following that bullshit line, Ed. For instance, Tony Parsons - not a journalist I normally have much time for - said this in today's Mirror:

Quote :

Those images of black youths looting and pillaging will not soon fade from the national consciousness. They have set race relations back in this country by 30 years.

I'd post a link to his column, but the admins won't allow me to post links.

I wouldn't say the riots have set back race relations. I would say that they may possibly corellate white consciousness with racial reality. And if so, they may prove salvific.

Avarice wrote:

Sharky wrote:

Pretty damming article, but spot on.

The comments on Parson's column are interesting. Not much support for him, it would seem.

To the extent the comments reflect the actual views of the majority, they confirm that Great Britain is making haste toward its own grave.

Ed Tom Kowalsky wrote:

because we're too pusillanimous to do the hard things.

Such as?

You asked me what I think. I'm trying to get to the heart of it, which is why I ask. It's a complex question with different issues at hand. But I hear things like wipe them out, remove them, etc. I am pretty sure that won't work. An iron fist will never silence the masses, especially in this day and age. I agree that there are deep societal issues that need to be rooted out. But do we accept the way things are and just say we're doomed? I try not to have such a pessimistic view. I'm looking for what are the root causes are here. Clearly these need to be addressed or this will happen again.

Avarice wrote:

Sharky wrote:

Pretty damming article, but spot on.

The comments on Parson's column are interesting. Not much support for him, it would seem.

Most of them are misreading the author. Not much of a surprise, I guess.

i.e.

BristlyPioneer wrote:

For the record, the rioters, were of all colours, not just black. There were white kids, asian kids, and black all kicking off and causing trouble.

Parsons never said the rioters were uniformly black, just predominantly so. However it does change with the location of the riot. i.e. the thugs in Manchester mostly seem to be white, compared to say Hackney or Tottenham.

A good article from the Telegraph here.

Quote :

At school I remember watching a presentation given to the kids by Trident, the Metropolitan Police Service unit set up to investigate and inform communities of gun crime in London’s black community. I didn’t know what Trident was then, and it struck me that all of the photos of people shot (the idea was to scare the kids) were black. So at the end, I approached one of the policemen and asked him what percentage of those involved in gun crime were black. I kid you not, but my question made this thirty-something white man who was, after all, trained to deal with the black community and its issues, turn pink.

He explained that about 80 per cent of gun crime took place in the black community. I smiled uncomfortably. But no, he said, it was worse than that. Then he told me that 80 per cent was black on black gun crime, and that of the remaining 20 per cent about 75 per cent involved at least one black person: black shooting white, or white shooting black. I pushed to know more. While he kept saying his stats were crude and he didn’t have scientific numbers, on the whole the whites who were involved in these shootings tended to be from Eastern Europe.

Was any of this ever mentioned in their presentation? Of course not. Just like the news about the Tottenham riots doesn’t mention race either.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/katharinebirbalsingh/100099830/these-riots-were-about-race-why-ignore-the-fact/

Katharine Birbalsingh on August 7th.

FG Wells wrote:

Ed Tom Kowalsky wrote:

because we're too pusillanimous to do the hard things.

Such as?

You asked me what I think. I'm trying to get to the heart of it, which is why I ask. It's a complex question with different issues at hand. But I hear things like wipe them out, remove them, etc. I am pretty sure that won't work. An iron fist will never silence the masses, especially in this day and age. I agree that there are deep societal issues that need to be rooted out. But do we accept the way things are and just say we're doomed? I try not to have such a pessimistic view. I'm looking for what are the root causes are here. Clearly these need to be addressed or this will happen again.

The rot is so deep and widespread that the scope of the solutions is daunting. I'll be brief and perforce simplistic.

1. Jettison multicultural nonsense. Not all cultures are equal so let us stop pretending. Diversity is a problem to be managed, not a desirable cultural good to be husbanded and cultivated. Instead, Western cultural norms must once again dominate.

2. Radically curtail immigration and tie immigration into what the immigrant can bring to the table and his likely ability to assimilate to Western norms. This means certain races will be favored.

3. Dispense with the vast majority of the welfare state. It breeds sloth, dependency, and entitlement. It is also fiscally unsustainable.

4. Get tough on crime. Cops fiddling around with their dicks in their hands fretting over whether they can use water cannons while arsonists, looters and muggers work their malfeasance right before their eyes is beyond farcical. It is insane.

That's the tip of the iceberg.

Ed Tom Kowalsky wrote:

FG,

How do you prevent these things from happening?

Unfortunately, we (and that includes Americans) don't have the will to do what is necessary. We would rather watch Western Civiliation destroyed from the inside than take serious measures. And trust me, in order to prevent future recurrence of these sorts of riots it will take a radical reordering of society from the ground up. It will never happen and Western Civilization will die because we're too pusillanimous to do the hard things.

Well, assume we make you our enlightened despot, how would you handle it?

The seeds for these problems were planted decades ago and you cannot hope to root them out without also destroying the soil they grew on in the process.

Ed Tom Kowalsky wrote:

Avarice wrote:

Not all the newspapers are following that bullshit line, Ed. For instance, Tony Parsons - not a journalist I normally have much time for - said this in today's Mirror:

Quote :

Those images of black youths looting and pillaging will not soon fade from the national consciousness. They have set race relations back in this country by 30 years.

I'd post a link to his column, but the admins won't allow me to post links.

I wouldn't say the riots have set back race relations. I would say that they may possibly corellate white consciousness with racial reality. And if so, they may prove salvific.

The fact that many of the opportunistic thieves and vandals were black doesn't mean this is a strictly black problem. The students that went on a little rampage of destruction when the tuition fees were raised were mostly white. It might be more a generational thing. These kids seem to find little problems in using violence against property and people to get what they want. Or simply display their displeasure.

Salomé wrote:

What exactly are they protesting? That iPads and flatscreen TVs aren't free?

You already said it Oppers. They expect luxury for nothing, and they know they can get break the law to get it, because the police are restrained by policy.

The tuition fees shit was the same. Instead that was mostly better educated (barely), wealthier, middle class, white kids.

On that note, Sharky, I was listening to the radio yesterday morning and one of the correspondents made the comment that if it had been raining over there the riots wouldnt have been so extreme because of that weather - because lets face it most of the people here are just being oppurtunists.

Ed Tom Kowalsky wrote:

1. Jettison multicultural nonsense.
2. Radically curtail immigration
3. Dispense with the vast majority of the welfare state.
4. Get tough on crime.

1. I'm not so sure how diversity breeds violence. Are you saying there is a clash of culture issue here?
If anything it seems the riot IS a result of a lack of respect of divesity: minority populations feeling mistreated and viewed as second class citizens by the police force and reacting in the only way they know how.
2. Immigration reform is certainly something that needs to be looked at in a lot of places. I suppose you could make the argument of an influx of immigration is creating overcrowding and not enough for everyone, and therefore widespread poverty, breeding violence, etc. This is tricky though because as Salome says above, the seeds have already been rooted.
3. That's a socio-political argument. Does it breed violence and destruction? If people are so entitled and lazy, you would think they wouldn't give two craps about any of this and just stay at home with all their government handouts right?
4. Agreed--law enforcement must restore order. Nothing should get this out of hand. This is ridiculous.

I think where I disagree is at the fundamental level. Because there is a feeling of intolerance among the minority populations. At another level, there is this culture of poverty in inner city neighborhoods. Young kids are surrounded by drugs, violence, and not many role models to encourage them to strive for a better life. It's no secret either that public schools in these neighorhoods are failing and aren't much safer than on the streets. Sure there are those extraordinary individuals who rise above it and they should be commended. But there is often no outlook, no perspective for most of these kids; it's just the norm, what they know because they haven't been shown any other way. Their only heroes are professional athletes and rap stars, and only the lucky few get to be them. Gangs provide safety and and a sense of belonging. I know this to be true because I have worked with these very kids in London and in urban areas here in the States. Does it justify the behavior? Of course not! But that is why I ask, what is the solution? Do you lock them all up? Do you alienate them even further by proposing monoculturism? Perhaps welfare isn't the way, but what about investing in better schools, youth opportunity programs, mentorship programs: give youths a purpose and a light outside the world of the ghetto. This segment of the population is here and it's here to stay, so measures must be taken to address the issues that are happening in these neighborhoods because as these riots prove, they affect all of us.

I never knew Rise of the Planet of the Apes would be about hooligans in England. What a fucking shame.

My husband and I own a couple of businesses locally. The thought of it being run over by free-for-all hooligans sickens me to no end. I truly sympathize with those who have worked hard to create businesses and watch them go to ruins.

FG,

Is there a culture clash? Yes, to some extent. But the problem isn't necessarily that the races are different from one another--although this is certainly true--it is that black "culture" is essentially chaotic and destructive and our multi-culti national narrative celebrates this behavior. This was not always the case. Prior to the advent of multi-culti Western norms were in the ascendent and blacks, largely adhering to these norms, functioned effectively in society although they were still largely an underclass. Multi-culti has invalidated Western culture and in the process, knocked the lid off the pressure cooker. Now the scalding contents are raining down upon us. It is time to put the lid back on, although this will doubtless occasion resentment and turmoil for some time to come. The alternative, however, is much worse. What we're seeing in the UK--and with flash mobs in the US--is only the beginning.

As for "respecting diversity," you know as well as I that Western nations have been twisting themselves into pretzels the last 40 years trying to appease and pacify minorities, particularly blacks. We've engaged in reprehensible discrimination against whites (affirmative action/positive discrimination); our educational curriculae are little more than broadsides against whites and Western civilization and encomiums to the dubious merits of other groups; and our national narrative is "celebrate diversity," an insipid bit of nonsense designed to blind the white majority to racial reality and to boost the all-important self esteem of blacks. We've also poured ever more money into social services that are utilized primarily by blacks and hispanics. And where have our efforts got us? The only thing they have purchased is more hatred which is now manifested in widespread attacks on innocent whites.

It is time to reverse course. The policies and mores of the past 40 years are an unmitigated failure and they threaten to destroy the US. The UK, I fear, is already a dead nation walking. And its pathetic end is America's future unless we wake up.

Salomé wrote:

Ed Tom Kowalsky wrote:

FG,

How do you prevent these things from happening?

Unfortunately, we (and that includes Americans) don't have the will to do what is necessary. We would rather watch Western Civiliation destroyed from the inside than take serious measures. And trust me, in order to prevent future recurrence of these sorts of riots it will take a radical reordering of society from the ground up. It will never happen and Western Civilization will die because we're too pusillanimous to do the hard things.

Well, assume we make you our enlightened despot, how would you handle it?

The seeds for these problems were planted decades ago and you cannot hope to root them out without also destroying the soil they grew on in the process.

Ed Tom Kowalsky wrote:

FG,

Is there a culture clash? Yes, to some extent. But the problem isn't necessarily that the races are different from one another--although this is certainly true--it is that black "culture" is essentially chaotic and destructive and our multi-culti national narrative celebrates this behavior. This was not always the case. Prior to the advent of multi-culti Western norms were in the ascendent and blacks, largely adhering to these norms, functioned effectively in society although they were still largely an underclass. Multi-culti has invalidated Western culture and in the process, knocked the lid off the pressure cooker. Now the scalding contents are raining down upon us. It is time to put the lid back on, although this will doubtless occasion resentment and turmoil for some time to come. The alternative, however, is much worse. What we're seeing in the UK--and with flash mobs in the US--is only the beginning.

As for "respecting diversity," you know as well as I that Western nations have been twisting themselves into pretzels the last 40 years trying to appease and pacify minorities, particularly blacks. We've engaged in reprehensible discrimination against whites (affirmative action/positive discrimination); our educational curriculae are little more than broadsides against whites and Western civilization and encomiums to the dubious merits of other groups; and our national narrative is "celebrate diversity," an insipid bit of nonsense designed to blind the white majority to racial reality and to boost the all-important self esteem of blacks. We've also poured ever more money into social services that are utilized primarily by blacks and hispanics. And where have our efforts got us? The only thing they have purchased is more hatred which is now manifested in widespread attacks on innocent whites.

It is time to reverse course. The policies and mores of the past 40 years are an unmitigated failure and they threaten to destroy the US. The UK, I fear, is already a dead nation walking. And its pathetic end is America's future unless we wake up.

Not sure if you saw my above post Khanners, but I'd still like to hear your practical solutions to the problem...

Allow me to introduce the most stupid person alive, posting his spoils on Facebook. He must love prison.

Darwin award worthy...

http://catchalooter.tumblr.com/

Quote :

So appalled and incensed am I at the killing of gentle, loving family man Mark Duggan last Thursday that I feel only the immediate illegal acquisition of an expensive consumer durable, preferably a top end watch, will assuage my righteous wrath and lessen my grief. A Rolex should do the job, or at least something with a bit of bling about it. If possible, the watch should be liberated by myself and my homeys, my bluds, from an agent of oppression, such as a local watch shop owned by someone who isn’t me and most likely from a different race, maybe white or Asian. Call it, if you like, an explosion of consciousness, much as has been suggested in the Guardian this week; the killing of gentle, loving family man Mark Duggan was a tipping point which has served to awaken in me a political sensibility which will achieve its full expression when I’ve thrown stuff at the old bill and nicked a nice watch.

[snip]

It is interesting watching the liberal media cover these exciting and incendiary moments; at the Guardian and on the BBC, the word ‘black’ is never used with respect to the rioters, and yet every so-called community leader interviewed is, of course, black. Perhaps these institutions fear the censure of the Press Complaints Commission or Ofcom if they dare to suggest that the rioters are, predominantly, black.

Rod Liddle, today's Spectator.

Of course they're predominantly black. John Derbyshire notes that blacks make up roughly 2% of England's population yet comprise perhaps 60-70% of the rioters. That's an overrepresentation factor of, oh, about 30-35.

Ain't diversity grand?

Ed Tom Kowalsky wrote:

Of course they're predominantly black. John Derbyshire notes that blacks make up roughly 2% of England's population yet comprise perhaps 60-70% of the rioters. That's an overrepresentation factor of, oh, about 30-35.

Ain't diversity grand?

Lets round them up and send them to Siberia Caithness...

The majority of the rioters in Bristol and Manchester looked white to me.

G section wrote:

The majority of the rioters in Bristol and Manchester looked white to me.

And I'm sure the BBC would neeever selectively display photos in order to deflect criticism of minorities. It's such an evenhanded and impartial news organization, after all.

Salomé wrote:

Ed Tom Kowalsky wrote:

Of course they're predominantly black. John Derbyshire notes that blacks make up roughly 2% of England's population yet comprise perhaps 60-70% of the rioters. That's an overrepresentation factor of, oh, about 30-35.

Ain't diversity grand?

Lets round them up and send them to Siberia Caithness...

Thanks for correcting that. Siberia's got enough of its own homies and bus-stop/beer-kiosk-lurking hoodlums.

Minorities suck.

Ed Tom Kowalsky wrote:

The rot is so deep and widespread that the scope of the solutions is daunting. I'll be brief and perforce simplistic.

1. Jettison multicultural nonsense. Not all cultures are equal so let us stop pretending. Diversity is a problem to be managed, not a desirable cultural good to be husbanded and cultivated. Instead, Western cultural norms must once again dominate.

2. Radically curtail immigration and tie immigration into what the immigrant can bring to the table and his likely ability to assimilate to Western norms. This means certain races will be favored.

3. Dispense with the vast majority of the welfare state. It breeds sloth, dependency, and entitlement. It is also fiscally unsustainable.

4. Get tough on crime. Cops fiddling around with their dicks in their hands fretting over whether they can use water cannons while arsonists, looters and muggers work their malfeasance right before their eyes is beyond farcical. It is insane.

That's the tip of the iceberg.

Nice summary Khan. I think item 3 is particularly vital along with the notion of of addressing family breakdown.

Melanie Phillips in the Mail offers up some straight talk on that matter.

".......and at the very heart of these problems lies the breakdown of the family.
For most of these children come from lone-mother households. And the single most crucial factor behind all this mayhem is the willed removal of the most important thing that socialises children and turns them from feral savages into civilised citizens: a father who is a fully committed member of the family unit.
"Of course there are many lone parents who do a tremendous job. But we’re talking here about widespread social collapse. And there are whole areas of Britain, white as well as black, where committed fathers are a wholly unknown phenomenon."
"....When Labour came to power in 1997, it set about systematically destroying not just the traditional family but the very idea that married parents were better for children than any other arrangement.
Instead, it introduced the sexual free-for-all of ‘lifestyle choice’; claimed that the idea of the male breadwinner was a sexist anachronism; and told girls that they could, and should, go it alone as mothers. "
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2024690/UK-riots-2011-Britains-liberal-intelligentsia-smashed-virtually-social-value.html#ixzz1UtJied5F

=As for the dismantling of the welfare state. Just do it. Stop writing the cheques. Give three months notice that subsidized housing will be renting at something close to near market value. Give three months notice that welfare cheques will stop. These are very generous severance terms in the real world.
I think we might be surprised as to how many able adults might suddenly find a way to work or scrape up cash to meet their obligations. Suddenly they would have to start being creative and industrious, like the rest of us, as to how to pay their bills.
The fact that so many welfare recipients can grab expensive taxi rides to the beer store, pizza/wing joint and cig shop on cheque days, should tell us that they've got their basic needs already covered. This scenario plays out every month on cheque day here in Toronto. Its a fact. I've seen the line-ups, and working in a soup kitchen once a week, the customers (who love to talk), confirm this reality....and speaking of soup kitchens....they are all over the city...and open somewhere in every neigborhood every day.......there is no need for anyone to go hungry......and there are lots of places......that provide free clothing....and all of this charity is provided privately without a penny of government money. I've actually heard leftists complaining that food banks, relieve government of its responsbility towards the poor. Bizarre.
Food banks are a threat to the welfare state apparently.
There will be protests and rioting, but I think we just ride that out. Get the police outfitted for battle. We're getting that anyway now.. Just deal with the Planet of the Apes behaviour until it runs its course or the perps are all peering out from behind bars.
Those that literally do end up on the street we accomodate in big shelters, which are heavily policed by the way, to avoid crime and ghetto-ization. Here basic needs are covered. It will be a form of communal living - ideally something any sane person would want to work to advance from. The adult inhabitants will be required to work doing minimum wage jobs. This will at least get them back in the habit of going to work again in the morning and allow them to build a resume and have cash they actually earned to manage. You could fire a bunch of city workers making union money for doing minimum wage work such as basic park maintenace and litter pick-up and replace them with these former welfare recipients. Also private businesses might welcome the labour force. Once people are back in the work force doing anything, there is potential for advancement etc. Minimum wage jobs are not designed to be occupied permanently anyway. The good workers can advance into more responsible positions
Who knows what benefits and good habits, the practise of working again could lead to? Also the social worker authorites will be working with them to find their own place asap.

Because the shelter living is free, any wages earned by the inahbitants would be placed in bank accounts for them. They could only draw with permission. Eventually they save enough cash to move out and put down first and last months rent like a normal person. The idea would be keep moving people out of the shelter environment and back into the world at large. No booze or drugs whatsoever allowed in the shelter either.
The children will be required to attend school. If need be, relocated to foster homes, if the parent/parents are agreeable. I wouldn't recommend forcibly breaking up families. That's not fair to the kids.
The whole point of this exercise would be to wipe out the unsustainable welfare state culture of entitlement and dependancy which is soul crushing for those caught in its vice-grip, not to mention a huge burden for the economies and tax base that have to sustain it.
I do think if we stopped writing the cheques, we would be surprised at how many people managed to sort themselves out. We all know single mothers etc, who have no interest in the welfare state whatsoever. They simply find a way.
The above scenario is designed to keep a roof over the head of those that are slower to adapt.
The real hardcases (mentally or physically handicapped and addicts, who simply can't work) can be accomodated accordingly.



Just my 2 cents but I think if there is a will, creative alternatives can be found to the modern welfare state as well as reducing the size of big bloated public services.

Ed Tom Kowalsky wrote:

G section wrote:

The majority of the rioters in Bristol and Manchester looked white to me.

And I'm sure the BBC would neeever selectively display photos in order to deflect criticism of minorities. It's such an evenhanded and impartial news organization, after all.

I'm going by The Times.