Skyfall: a surprising disappointment

tiffanywint wrote:

Triviachamp wrote:

Bond has never been a hero in the classic sense. He has always been an anti-hero. The sleeping around and killing unarmed Dent was not family friendly back in the 1960s.

There is nothing anti-hero about those items. Killing villains like Dent is what he's supposed to do, especially after they have twice tried to kill him in a matter of minutes. Its neither heroic nor anti-heroic. It's just Bond doing his job, exercising his double-O. Heroism is when you put yourself at risk for the good of others which is what Bond does in every film and every book, even the Craig-films.

There is nothing anti-heroic or heroic about Bond's womanizing. In fact Connery, Moore, Laz, even Dalts and Broz were all quite charming about it. They seduced women with a twinkle in their eye. And book Bond is extremely chivalrous. Bond will use sex as a weapon with the evil women, but so what, they are evil. They are generally plotting to kill him.

What makes Bond an anti-hero is that while he sleeps around, gambles and kills unarmed people he is doing it in order to defeat the bad guys. He certainly wasn't a classic hero in the 1960s what with all the critiques of his sex and violence.

GeneralGogol wrote:

Severine's death ranks among the series' most shocking deaths, but it was also inevitable and poetic. Much like Vesper knew she was going to her death (as M says) and arguably Mathis, so did Severine. From her introduction, looking at Bond in the skyscrapers, there is something otherworldly and haunting about her. A slave most of her life and living in such fear, Severine is already dead in a way. Bond is a man who has also looked death in the face. This gives the shower scene some added poignancy. The sheer humiliation that Severine then undergoes on Silva's island is the tragic cap-off to a tragic character. I really found this to be one of the most beautifully realized Bond girls, despite her limited screen time.

You have perfectly captured Severine. She's maybe the most tragic figure in all of film-Bond. Her character is worthy of Fleming, a wounded bird that Bond would try to save.

But with SF we don't know what the filmmakers are trying to say about Bond vis-a-vis Severine. They drop the ball because they don't have a clue. They've been doing this for three films with the nu-Bond -- trying to contrive a conflicted nature for Bond, which really doesn't exist in any meaningful way, but they've been tripping all over themselves trying to portray it anyway, but they have to keep coming back to Bond as hero. C'est la vie. The dilemma they face is that Bond is indeed a hero. He generally does, or tries to do, the right thing, despite what cynics like Michael Madsen as Falco might say in films like DAD, "what is he some kind of hero?" The answer as usual, turns out to be a resouding yes. Falco looks irrelevant by film's end. (I do apologize btw for attempting to use DAD to illustrate a point).

SF is not half as clever a film as it thinks it is. Sure its got lots of smart dialogue. In fact Bond's character in SF, IMO, is generally consistent with his "righteous" nature but for the Severine dilemma.

In SF we are at least not subjected to the ponderous musings, we were asked to mull over in QoS. The Bond character is better realized in the new-film, which makes the Severine conundrum so jarring, IMHO of course.

Triviachamp wrote:

What makes Bond an anti-hero is that while he sleeps around, gambles and kills unarmed people he is doing it in order to defeat the bad guys. He certainly wasn't a classic hero in the 1960s what with all the critiques of his sex and violence.

Fair point there, he certainly was a new kind of hero, when first introduced to the silver screen in 1962.

Quote :

In fact Bond's character in SF, IMO, is generally consistent with his "righteous" nature but for the Severine dilemma.

I would never say Bond's been a "righteous" character, even in Fleming. Book book is chivalrous yes, but flawed and at times annoyingly short-sighted. He makes mistakes, both large and small, and that's what SKYFALL attempts to convey. Bond misses the target at the firing range at his regular distance, and still can't hit it even when he moves in. He can barely do a couple of pull-ups, fails his psych test, and almost lets go when he has to hold onto a lift. Likewise he's slammed to the ground and winded by the Chinese bouncer, and misses when has to shoot the scotch off Severine's head. In the words of Silva “Is there any of the old 007 left?” The most devastating of these numerous failings is Severine's death, and Bond's one-liner is only masking his internal horror (something Fleming would devote an entire page to, if not more).

The moment when Bond dispatches the henchmen and calls in the cavalry is when he snaps out of his malaise. It's a similar moment to when Indy breaks from his self-induced trance in TEMPLE OF DOOM, and saves the day. The difference here is that for Bond it's a costly victory.

Yes Bond makes mistakes, espeically in the books, but that doesn't compromise his essentially righteous nature. He makes tactical errors and misses things and sometimes people die because he blew it. He's not a machine, but I don't know what the filmmakers are trying to portray about Bond here with the Severine dilemma. Again the heroic response is to go down with the girl. You go down fighting, trying to save the girl, even if the girl goes down with you. That's what a hero does.

I'm not sure what Bond is doing here though. You say he tried to shoot the glass off her head. I don't think that's clear. I think he may have missed on purpose to buy time, and see what the next move was, in this sick twisted game. Attempting to hit the glass though is not heroic. That's playing to the villain's depraved game, terrifying the girl further, and putting her at greater risk. I'm giving Bond the benefit of the doubt here, that he was trying to buy time, but I'm not sure what he was doing, and I don't think the filmmakers do either. They contrive these scenes, but are unable to resolve them, as ultimately they are stuck with Bond as hero, so they just throw them out there and move on.

Eon, or more to the point Craig and his enablers, would be better advised to stop f**ing around with the Bond character. He's really not that interesting or deep. He's a blunt instrument, motivated by duty and a genuine drive to take on missions that put to use his estimable skills. He gets restless sitting around an office. Fleming spells this out in FRWL and again in DN, and probably other places. Those two books happen to be currently top of mind.

Bond works best when he is a consistent foil for the more complex and genuinely conflicted characters and elaborate designs that he finds himself having to face. Bond stoicly executes the mission while others, both sympathetic and vile, revel or flounder in their eccentricities and exotic natures. In the end Bond prevails, even if he does emerge rather bruised and beat-up, especially in the books.

If the Severine scene works for some, all the power. Free world. It fell flat for me though, as do much of the machinations and contrivances of the nu-Bond world. To each his own.

If they were really going to riff on GOLDEN GUN, his shooting the glass off her head successfully (and doing so with a SundanceKid type draw) would have been more appropriate. Technically, it might tip Silva, but it could also be a psych move by Bond to put Silva off balance, LEADING to his shootalltheotherbaddy followup.

Hilly wrote:

tiffanywint wrote:

.

Can't wait to get to the OHMSS screening next week.

Oh Tiff you lucky dog. Though I've seen OHMSS on the big screen at the BFI in 2009 it's somehow still enviable to know someone's getting that chance.

I'll say hello to "Hilly" for you. I might even wear a kilt in tribute.
The funniest moment in OHMSS I think, is when Bond/Bray explains to Bunt that her name is a nautical term, meaning the baggy or swollen parts of a sail. No offence of course.

The White Tuxedo wrote:

Largo's Shark wrote:

Mrs Aural Sects wrote:

Dominic Greene gets thoroughly OWNED in the desert

Yet we don't see his death. Huge letdown.

That's something I really don't like about QOS. Bond is an assassin. He kills people for a job. He is not Batman.

Are we talking in terms of how he delt with Mr. Greene? Cause I thought that giving him the choice of "Die of heat exhaustion and dehydration or drink of this oil can" was pretty raw. Either way the guy was as good as dead, and Bond (in a fairly unhinged way) wasn't about to let him just get gunned down. He wanted him to feel the torture he was imposing upon others (forcing folks to go without water and drive up its prices, or drown in oil like Agent Fields).

I'm not going to defend QoS too hard though. I just feel that I gotta give it a little leniency considering half the movie was made without an actual writer (thanks a bunch writer's strike '08)

Habanero45 wrote:

Are we talking in terms of how he delt with Mr. Greene? Cause I thought that giving him the choice of "Die of heat exhaustion and dehydration or drink of this oil can" was pretty raw. Either way the guy was as good as dead, and Bond (in a fairly unhinged way) wasn't about to let him just get gunned down. He wanted him to feel the torture he was imposing upon others (forcing folks to go without water and drive up its prices, or drown in oil like Agent Fields).

Craig's Bond seems to be a fan of karmic death. First giving Greene a taste of his own medicine, then literally stabbing Silva in the back after being lectured by Silva of M's betrayal.

tiffanywint wrote:

Hilly wrote:

tiffanywint wrote:

.

Can't wait to get to the OHMSS screening next week.

Oh Tiff you lucky dog. Though I've seen OHMSS on the big screen at the BFI in 2009 it's somehow still enviable to know someone's getting that chance.

I'll say hello to "Hilly" for you. I might even wear a kilt in tribute.
The funniest moment in OHMSS I think, is when Bond/Bray explains to Bunt that her name is a nautical term, meaning the baggy or swollen parts of a sail. No offence of course.

that and his "Has that old cow told you..."

as for the kilt...well, whatever you think is best

tiffanywint wrote:

I'm not sure what Bond is doing here though. You say he tried to shoot the glass off her head. I don't think that's clear. I think he may have missed on purpose to buy time, and see what the next move was, in this sick twisted game.

If he was missing on purpose, I think the filmmakers would have signposted that a bit more than they do. The way it's edited, it looks like he tries to shoot the glass and misses.

tiffanywint wrote:

Attempting to hit the glass though is not heroic. That's playing to the villain's depraved game, terrifying the girl further, and putting her at greater risk.

Well, let's not forget that Bond essentially does just that in THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN when he shoots the pineapple off the girl's head.

Harmsway wrote:

tiffanywint wrote:

I'm not sure what Bond is doing here though. You say he tried to shoot the glass off her head. I don't think that's clear. I think he may have missed on purpose to buy time, and see what the next move was, in this sick twisted game.

If he was missing on purpose, I think the filmmakers would have signposted that a bit more than they do. The way it's edited, it looks like he tries to shoot the glass and misses.

tiffanywint wrote:

Attempting to hit the glass though is not heroic. That's playing to the villain's depraved game, terrifying the girl further, and putting her at greater risk.

Well, let's not forget that Bond essentially does just that in THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN when he shoots the pineapple off the girl's head.

Good points, both. re. the first, I've only seen the film once, so I'm going by my initial impression.

Re the second. I'll have to re-read the Fleming passage to see how the comparison stands up, but yes it is there, although at first blush, a pineapple seems like a makeable shot for a guy like Bond, thus giving him that option. Hitting a shot glass though from that distance seems impossible even for Bond, minus a sniper rifle.

My survey of locals who've seen the film is interesting...the only one moaning is me. The others all enjoyed it.

I'm just saying from my own selfish standpoint, the film needed another major action piece. Leaving it out is like going to an exam and not answering a compulsory question, you immediately lose marks. In that respect, Skyfall can't top 7/10 as a Bond movie....maybe as another movie but we're still talking Bond here.

Oh well...still have another go at the cinemas soon, remember I'm on an island where Skyfall is dominating on 8 screens, 7 regular, one IMAX.... :face:

How many times you seen it, Dawg?

Largo's Shark wrote:

How many times you seen it, Dawg?

2 in the bag, another go by Friday...

Don't forget to put some clothes on, Dog.

Harmsway wrote:

Well, let's not forget that Bond essentially does just that in THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN when he shoots the pineapple off the girl's head.

I think the scene may have been inspired by the Belly-Lick, etc. chapter from TMWTGG, however the scenarios are radically different. In the book, Bond seizes the initiative, accepting a dare to "get these people off the pad", but Bond selects his own dare. He's in control of the situation. He drops into a crouch and blows the false-pineapple head-dress off the unsuspecting girl's head, but reassures both her and we the gentle reader, that she was never in any danger. He was aiming for the top of the pineapple. The girl was spared any anticpatory terror as she had no idea the shot was coming. But there is indeed a parallel in that Bond accepts a dare from the villain, that puts an innocent woman in peril, even if Fleming assures us that pineapple-girl was not actually in any danger. In SF though, Silva has Bond at his mercy, and girl is very much in danger and she knows it only too well.

Pensa ai tuoi peccati


...screamed the....

The White Tuxedo wrote:

I also liked that the game that Silva set up involved Bond's shaky aim. No TWINE there/not there shoulder injury here.

Funny you should say that... A friend said to me that Bond's injury seemed to disappear after some time, whereas in TWINE, it slightly hindered him at the caviar factory, the ski chase, in the bunker and with Elektra.

still waiting for the damn thing to be released here
:evil:

"Maybe it's the time it spends in train stations or MI6's new premises in old underground London. Maybe it's the venerable British thespians in support. Or that our our hero - orphaned as a child, we discover - must face his tech-wizard nemesis in a crumbling country pile. Maybe it's the bit with the dragons (yes, really).
And maybe, well certainly, I'm flailing about trying to find something vaguely original to say about 007, part XXIII.
It's had so much said about it already and got itself branded the dark, psychological Bond, the reinvented-for-the-21st century-but-origin-story Bond, and, the best Bond since Daniel Radcliffe - whoops, Craig - first got those very nice suits tailored.
But the admittedly lateral thought that this Bond curiously resembles a gun-happy, jet-setting Harry Potter movie took hold while it was still on. And in a Bond movie, you really shouldn't be given time or inspiration for random thoughts about other Brit blockbuster franchises.
Because it just might indicate that Skyfall, with the energy generated by real-world seriousness rubbing up against the formulaic preposterousness, can actually get a bit boring. Especially as it heads into the last half-hour of a film which matches Craig's debut, Casino Royale, for duration as the longest Bondflicks.
That 2006 one humanised the old trooper by having him fall in love in between high stakes card games and getting tortured.
This one attempts to do the same by showing his rehab efforts after coming back from the dead - his downtime having been spent somewhere sunny, mostly contemplating the bottom of bottles from the product placement dept - so he can then chase this episode's Euro-baddie (Bardem's Raoul Silva), a cyber-terrorist threatening to expose an international spy who's who on the web.
That involves stop-offs in Shanghai and Macau via two Bond gals - curiously, Berenice Lim Marlohe's Severine spends more time on the poster than she does in the movie - before dragging Silva back to London where, after a Silence of the Lambs bit, it's all on.
And that's where Skyfall starts. While trying to be the aforementioned dark, psychological reboot of 007, it also wants to be the bob-each-way Bond.
Its story wants to say something about being a spy in a precarious post-WikiLeaks/Anonymous world while still being the high-action aftershave advert of old.
Just not sure it does either particularly well.
But if director Sam Mendes and his writers over-reach, it still offers plenty of set-piece thrills and their leading man, Craig, is still really good.
Opposite him, Bardem's Silva might be a gay cover version of his creepier killer, Anton Chigurh from No Country for Old Men, but he sure has his moments, whether he's inspecting 007's inside leg measurement or showing a remarkable inability to delegate in his fiendish plans. Which is very Voldemort of him, really.

Stars: 3.5/5
Cast: Daniel Craig, Judi Dench, Javier Bardem
Director: Sam Mendes
Rating: M (violence)
Running time: 143 mins
Verdict: Best Bond yet? Hmmm ...

Skyfall is a rip-off of better action movies; the agent-list from Mission Impossible, the fake-death from Bourne Identity, the computer-hacker from Die Hard 4, the former-agent from Golden Eye, the baddie from No Country for Old Men, and the final shoot out from Straw Dogs."

Die Hard 4 better than Skyfall? :shock:

Seve wrote:

still waiting for the damn thing to be released here
:evil:

"Maybe it's the time it spends in train stations or MI6's new premises in old underground London. Maybe it's the venerable British thespians in support. Or that our our hero - orphaned as a child, we discover - must face his tech-wizard nemesis in a crumbling country pile. Maybe it's the bit with the dragons (yes, really).
And maybe, well certainly, I'm flailing about trying to find something vaguely original to say about 007, part XXIII.
It's had so much said about it already and got itself branded the dark, psychological Bond, the reinvented-for-the-21st century-but-origin-story Bond, and, the best Bond since Daniel Radcliffe - whoops, Craig - first got those very nice suits tailored.
But the admittedly lateral thought that this Bond curiously resembles a gun-happy, jet-setting Harry Potter movie took hold while it was still on. And in a Bond movie, you really shouldn't be given time or inspiration for random thoughts about other Brit blockbuster franchises.
Because it just might indicate that Skyfall, with the energy generated by real-world seriousness rubbing up against the formulaic preposterousness, can actually get a bit boring. Especially as it heads into the last half-hour of a film which matches Craig's debut, Casino Royale, for duration as the longest Bondflicks.
That 2006 one humanised the old trooper by having him fall in love in between high stakes card games and getting tortured.
This one attempts to do the same by showing his rehab efforts after coming back from the dead - his downtime having been spent somewhere sunny, mostly contemplating the bottom of bottles from the product placement dept - so he can then chase this episode's Euro-baddie (Bardem's Raoul Silva), a cyber-terrorist threatening to expose an international spy who's who on the web.
That involves stop-offs in Shanghai and Macau via two Bond gals - curiously, Berenice Lim Marlohe's Severine spends more time on the poster than she does in the movie - before dragging Silva back to London where, after a Silence of the Lambs bit, it's all on.
And that's where Skyfall starts. While trying to be the aforementioned dark, psychological reboot of 007, it also wants to be the bob-each-way Bond.
Its story wants to say something about being a spy in a precarious post-WikiLeaks/Anonymous world while still being the high-action aftershave advert of old.
Just not sure it does either particularly well.
But if director Sam Mendes and his writers over-reach, it still offers plenty of set-piece thrills and their leading man, Craig, is still really good.
Opposite him, Bardem's Silva might be a gay cover version of his creepier killer, Anton Chigurh from No Country for Old Men, but he sure has his moments, whether he's inspecting 007's inside leg measurement or showing a remarkable inability to delegate in his fiendish plans. Which is very Voldemort of him, really.

Stars: 3.5/5
Cast: Daniel Craig, Judi Dench, Javier Bardem
Director: Sam Mendes
Rating: M (violence)
Running time: 143 mins
Verdict: Best Bond yet? Hmmm ...

Skyfall is a rip-off of better action movies; the agent-list from Mission Impossible, the fake-death from Bourne Identity, the computer-hacker from Die Hard 4, the former-agent from Golden Eye, the baddie from No Country for Old Men, and the final shoot out from Straw Dogs."

Nice rambling summation. Just like the movie. There is so much going on. All I know for sure is that its a real clever film. And again I know this, because the film keeps telling me that it is.

I've got another SF viewing set-up for this week. This second viewing, I just want to see if I can get it to hold up as escapist entertainment. There is hope as after about 10 viewings plus, I've managed to get QoS to work as a funky little action flick, with lots of bonus Helga footage. She's fast becoming one of my favourite Bond-girls.

CR I can't get to work for me. I may have to toss it in the dumpster. The poker game is done exceptionally well, but the rest of it gets more painful with each viewing.

tiffanywint wrote:

Nice rambling summation. Just like the movie. There is so much going on. All I know for sure is that its a real clever film. And again I know this, because the film keeps telling me that it is.

I've got another SF viewing set-up for this week. This second viewing, I just want to see if I can get it to hold up as escapist entertainment. There is hope as after about 10 viewings plus, I've managed to get QoS to work as a funky little action flick, with lots of bonus Helga footage. She's fast becoming one of my favourite Bond-girls.

CR I can't get to work for me. I may have to toss it in the dumpster. The poker game is done exceptionally well, but the rest of it gets more painful with each viewing.

you'll probably have seen it twice before I even see it once
:(

the secret to enjoying CR for me is to turn it off after Le Chifre get killed
;)

Seve wrote:

the secret to enjoying CR for me is to turn it off after Le Chifre get killed
;)

the secret to enjoying CR for me is to turn it off after Dryden gets killed.

trevanian wrote:

the secret to enjoying CR for me is to turn it off after Dryden gets killed.

Harsh.

btw I am pleased to announce that SF holds up much better with 2nd viewing. Expectations change etc. It's still not what I want in a Bond movie, not even close, but its now quite watchable at least. Best part of the film is the end, when Bond reports for duty like a normal Bond in a normal M office setting. MP even seems very conventional MPish. Mallory seems very conventional Mish. This could work.

Keep watching, Timmer :)

Can't wait to rewatch it at the movies tomorrow when it's released in Australia :)